Pakistan cruise missiles pose key challenge to India

[Contrarian]

The technology of Brahmos isn't Indian , it is just a missile based on an existing Soviet era missile , hence you cant purchase something and declare yourself ahead in that field . India's financial contribution in the joint venture is 50.5% but technological contribution from what I have read , is negligible . You are free to prove me wrong here . Second , it looks but absurd that you are ahead in the supersonic regime of cruise missile but fall behind in the subsonic one .

Guidance, electronics as well as software is completely Indian made.

 

[gslv mk3]

Lol.. Brahmos is nothing but a 280-90 KM russian Onik/Yakhont missile.. and the range is low because under MTCR rules you cant import a missile above tht range.. as for 800km ranged super sonic CM.. yeah right kiddo.. the so called failed nirbhay is to have a range of 700km at max and is sub sonic... now compare tht with our CM,ALCMs etc... as @secure said... you are still behind Pakistan.

So Russians sold us the missile and let us to sell them to many other nations??Typical Pakistani logic??And learn a thing or two about MTCR and BrahmosPJ-10 BrahMos

And about the bolded part,here is supersonic LRCM,testing in 2014

And we already have a ramjet engine,remember Akash sam??

We also have a scramjet engine,already ground tested,and our first hypersonic test will be on 2014

Can you guys build a scramjet/ramjet??This is why we say India is ahead in supersonic missile technology.

Although I dont expect a person like you with zero logic to understand.


@Secur,I think if DRDO can develop airframe for a hypersonic vehicle and a scramjet engine,itsurely will have capability for developing a supersonic CM right??

 

[Secur]

How is that absurd . Both are completely different type of missiles .

They aren't different , mastering the former should again in theory , result in mastering the former . Lets see , if I can drive a vehicle with manual transmission , do you think I should have any problem driving one with automatic transmission ?

@Secur,I think if DRDO can develop airframe for a hypersonic vehicle and a scramjet engine,itsurely will have capability for developing a supersonic CM right??

In theory , yes . That is why I told another member from your country that it is absurd that a country can design missile for the supersonic regime but fall behind in the subsonic one . However , you must remember that capability doesn't really translate it into a mature operational weapon . It would take much more time for India to master the technology in its entirety , remove the problem , glitches and smoothen it out , make it reliable and then finally induct it after some time .

Any country which has a SLV should , in theory , be able to build an ICBM , meaning they have the capability , however how many of them have done so ?

 

[Secur]

yes,you are true about the bolded part,the airframe and propulsion are russian,but then what is origin of turbofan used in Babur??
What we have is a subsonic one under testing,supersonic long range one under development-we have all the building blocks including ramjets and 2 active scramjet program

Actually , the airframe and the propulsion were directly taken out from the Oniks , there is not a substantial difference in the specifications of both P800 and Brahmos , however the speed is slightly different and the flight characteristics are quite different . In my opinion , the real difference lies in upgraded software and advancement in electronics and computer technology . Why reinvent the wheel , even ? As for the ' rumor ' part , I dont really buy it unless there's considerable evidence in which case , well it doesn't remain a ' rumor ' .

I know what you have under development and planned , but even you understand the difference between planned , under development and operational , which is precisely I tried to imply in my post which you quoted here and looking at the past records , DRDO has a habit of a claiming a lot but delivering less , usually with significant delays . Next , if a weapon has a test flight , today , it doesn't mean it will be operational with the armed forces , the next day .

 

[Secur]

Mate,You cannot overlook India's contribution read kurup 's post #116,

And then yes,I would have to say We are ahead in supersonic missile technology,We already have Brahmos 1 (OK,ramjet and airframe are not ours)but Brahmos 2 is being developed by Indian owned BATL,We already have a Ramjet powered Long Range supersonic cruise missile program(test in 2014,probabily),we already have ramjet engines (remember Akash SAM)and an Indian scramjet engine programe is being undertaken by DRDO(it is a hypersonic prototype,just like X-51 wave rider and first test will be on 2014)

That is exactly what I am not doing here , guidance system and electronics are a significant achievement in my view .

Well , nothing today is operational in the supersonic cruise missile class developed by India herself to declare you as such and even ballistic missiles can easily reach supersonic speed , that isn't a problem . Think of the propulsion as the engine of the aircraft , despite countries claiming to provide complete TOT , they never transfer the core of the engine , that is , of course , assuming that they transfer anything related to the engine at all . Why ? Because it is really sensitive technology which takes a lot of time to master . The same there , is true for the propulsion system of the Brahmos too .

For the quasi ballistic missile question , you may want to have a look at Nasr again and read some reports regarding the SL version of Babur .

 

[gslv mk3]

In theory , yes . That is why I told another member from your country that it is absurd that a country can design missile for the supersonic regime but fall behind in the subsonic one . However , you must remember that capability doesn't really translate it into a mature operational weapon . It would take much more time for India to master the technology in its entirety , remove the problem , glitches and smoothen it out , make it reliable and then finally induct it after some time .

Mate you should understand one thing,Nirbhay CM project did only start much later.And yes that capability do count right?If we have a joint developed Supersonic Cruise Missile and have capability to build a supersonic CM on our own(which we are undertaking right now) aren't we ahead of Pakistan?

Any country which has a SLV should , in theory , be able to build an ICBM , meaning they have the capability , however how many of them have done so ?

Well many countries with SLVs do have ICBM(US,Russia,China,India,France), just a few (like Japan,South Korea,Brasil etc) are not interested in them.

Oops and what about countries that doesnt have an SLV claiming that they are advanced in 'all fields of missile technology' than a country that tested an SLV almost 34 years ago??

 

[gslv mk3]

Well , nothing today is operational in the supersonic cruise missile class developed by India herself to declare you as such and even ballistic missiles can easily reach supersonic speed , that isn't a problem .

Mate,we have a joint developed Supersonic Cruise Missile,and there are active programs running on Supersonic and hypersonic missiles here

Think of the propulsion as the engine of the aircraft , despite countries claiming to provide complete TOT , they never transfer the core of the engine , that is , of course , assuming that they transfer anything related to the engine at all . Why ? Because it is really sensitive technology which takes a lot of time to master . The same there , is true for the propulsion system of the Brahmos too .

Mate I am not talking ToT,I am talking about Indian Ramjet engines,We already have ramjet engines(one used on the Akash SAM),We have a Liquid Fuel Ramjet Project,refer to the slide below,and we have two active fully Indian scramjet programs (one is a civilian one of ISRO-ground tested in 2006,and other of DRDO-ground tested on 2010)

For the quasi ballistic missile question , you may want to have a look at Nasr again and read some reports regarding the SL version of Babur .

Mate Nasr is a 70 km range missile,I am talking about something like the Shaurya which has a log range,And also have Pakistani SLCM been tested?Why dont you apply your logic here??

I know what you have under development and planned , but even you understand the difference between planned , under development and operational , . Next , if a weapon has a test flight , today , it doesn't mean it will be operational with the armed forces , the next day .

 

[gslv mk3]

Actually , the airframe and the propulsion were directly taken out from the Oniks , there is not a substantial difference in the specifications of both P800 and Brahmos , however the speed is slightly different and the flight characteristics are quite different . In my opinion , the real difference lies in upgraded software and advancement in electronics and computer technology .

And we were involved in the development of those,right??

Why reinvent the wheel , even ? As for the ' rumor ' part , I dont really buy it unless there's considerable evidence in which case , well it doesn't remain a ' rumor ' .

Not trolling but,do Pakistan have capability to develop a turbofan.?

I know what you have under development and planned , but even you understand the difference between planned , under development and operational , which is precisely I tried to imply in my post which you quoted here and looking at the past records , DRDO has a habit of a claiming a lot but delivering less , usually with significant delays . Next , if a weapon has a test flight , today , it doesn't mean it will be operational with the armed forces , the next day .

Yes DRDO had delayed many systems,but there are many things to blame back then,but now I guess DRDO has come of age,look at their latest missile projects like Shaurya and the like,and yes having one under development atleast is much better than not having one right??

w.r.t the hypersonic prototype,the HSTDV ,the scramjet engine have been ground tested (That is really is an achievement right)airframe have been developed,and first flight will be on 2014

 

[kurup]

They aren't different , mastering the former should again in theory , result in mastering the former . Lets see , if I can drive a vehicle with manual transmission , do you think I should have any problem driving one with automatic transmission ?

I cannot understand the bold part .

If you meant latter , then the question is after mastering subsonic CM why is there is no supersonic CM from pakistan ??

Although I don't think that the difference between a sub-sonic and supersonic CM is as simple as being justified by the example of a transmission system .

 

[Secur]

I cannot understand the bold part .

If you meant latter , then the question is after mastering subsonic CM why is there is no supersonic CM from pakistan ??

Although I don't think that the difference between a sub-sonic and supersonic CM is as simple as being justified by the example of a transmission system .

No one can , it was a typing mistake

You understand the post wrong , I meant mastering the former should in theory result in mastering the latter , I said it would look absurd that a country is ahead in the supersonic regime of cruise missile but lacks behind in the subsonic one .

Except for propulsion , there's no substantial difference , from what I understand and that was just an example to help understand the point .

 

[gslv mk3]

@kurup

When did the Nirbhay project started??

 

[kurup]

@kurup

When did the Nirbhay project started??

According to one report the development started in 2006 .

7 years in making, cruise missile fails test - Times Of India

Although I have no idea , how much credible this is .

 

[Secur]

Mate you should understand one thing,Nirbhay CM project did only start much later.And yes that capability do count right?If we have a joint developed Supersonic Cruise Missile and have capability to build a supersonic CM on our own(which we are undertaking right now) aren't we ahead of Pakistan?

Well many countries with SLVs do have ICBM(US,Russia,China,India,France), just a few (like Japan,South Korea,Brasil etc) are not interested in them.

Oops and what about countries that doesnt have an SLV claiming that they are advanced in 'all fields of missile technology' than a country that tested an SLV almost 34 years ago??

Yes it did start much later , somewhere in 2007 with much high expectations after DRDO's claim of inducting the missile within a year after first test , it would be noteworthy that even this project was met with delays , the test flight however would later fail with missile only travelling one-third from its path , deviating from its target and had to be terminated to ensure the safety of area . That , isn't considered even a remote success despite the company's claim that the problem was in one of the subsystems when it just cant be one , due to problems in both guidance and propulsion here . The next test , interestingly , would be promised two months after the March test , which is yet to happen .

The only problem there is that Brahmos is jointly developed , based on the Soviet/Russian missile and with main systems coming from the Kremlin . The guidance and electronics are an attempt at Indian indigenisation , otherwise that too could have been provided by the Moscow , still a significant achievement in my view to develop the systems for such a missile . You aren't developing the ramjet used in the Brahmos unit now , are you ? There are still technologies which the Russians will like to keep close to their chest , due to their sensitivity . Another one is planned hinting at capability but not operational yet to get you an edge in that field . You still have to master Nirbhay first for that to succeed .

Why do you think is that ? Despite the fact that mastering the SLV has given them a theoretical capability to make ICBM's . Why do you think they aren't interested ? There's no such thing as interest here , but rather the capability hasn't translated into an ability , for a dozen different reasons ranging from political will to absence of technology of other systems . Never claimed an edge in ' all the missile technology ' , did I ?

 

[gslv mk3]

The only problem there is that Brahmos is jointly developed , based on the Soviet/Russian missile and with main systems coming from the Kremlin . The guidance and electronics are an attempt at Indian indigenisation , otherwise that too could have been provided by the Moscow , still a significant achievement in my view to develop the systems for such a missile . You aren't developing the ramjet used in the Brahmos unit now , are you ? There are still technologies which the Russians will like to keep close to their chest , due to their sensitivity

Why cant you understand??!!We have already have a ramjet used in Akash SAM,we are developing one for the Supersonic LRCM

Another one is planned hinting at capability but not operational yet to get you an edge in that field . You still have to master Nirbhay first for that to succeed .

We already have a Supersonic CM and a long range one under development!!

Why do you think is that ? Despite the fact that mastering the SLV has given them a theoretical capability to make ICBM's . Why do you think they aren't interested ? There's no such thing as interest here , but rather the capability hasn't translated into an ability , for a dozen different reasons ranging from political will to absence of technology of other systems . Never claimed an edge in ' all the missile technology ' , did I ?

The bolded part is the principal reason,not the lack of capability or technology for them.

 

[Secur]

Mate I am not talking ToT,I am talking about Indian Ramjet engines,We already have ramjet engines(one used on the Akash SAM),We have a Liquid Fuel Ramjet Project,refer to the slide below,and we have two active fully Indian scramjet programs (one is a civilian one of ISRO-ground tested in 2006,and other of DRDO-ground tested on 2010)

Mate Nasr is a 70 km range missile,I am talking about something like the Shaurya which has a log range,And also have Pakistani SLCM been tested?Why dont you apply your logic here??

Correction , you have one operational ramjet engine on the Akash interceptor missile for sustained speed during flight , the rest are all planned projects which will take a lot of time before giving fruitful results . As for the Scram jets programme , both are under development and have more potential for space application than missile technology . A place , where we are absent , for now .

Yes , it is . But still it is a missile with a quasi ballistic trajectory , something you asked about , the newest in Pakistan's arsenal and signalling the development of new generation of missiles and a shift from traditional ballistic missiles . Nah , just wanted you to know , what is planned here .