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PAF in Libya during US confrontation

Did the Pakistani pilots tell the U.S. pilots that they were Pakistani? Or did the U.S. pilots let them get really close cause that looked like 200 feet from a distance.

Probably told them eventually, whether or not it was before/after playing games with the Hornet is up for debate.

I've heard in the Iraq war the Iraqi pilots that gave the Americans the most trouble were the ones trained by the PAF.

You heard wrong, Saddam preffered his pilots being trained by the Indians.
 
The incident seems a little suspect as throughout Operation El Dorado , No libyan aircraft was launched to intercept the strikes.
Apparently Operation El Dorado Canyon was carried out in April 1986, the subject incident took place a few months earlier in February of the same year when US may have been testing waters.
 
Probably told them eventually, whether or not it was before/after playing games with the Hornet is up for debate.



You heard wrong, Saddam preffered his pilots being trained by the Indians.
This is the type of farsical dellusional bullshit im talking about. Its a well known fact that iraqs are had military assistance from india prior to the gulf war in terms of training. People make up fairy tale stories its a sad fact that many pakistanis on this website live in a fools paradise. All the stated info so far on this thread has been pulled out of peoples bums . Nothing has been verified by actual sources just he said she said bullshit. There was a thread that PAF was on the verge of signing a contract for 40 4.5 gen fighter aircraft in other words a pak member got high on heroine and fell in a trance
 
PAF confronting USA.....................................joke of the century.:omghaha:.
 
PAF have been involved in training Libyan Air Force pilots in the past, during my visit to Libya 2 years back i met a gentleman who was ex Fighter Pilot & have been trained by PAF... he spoke few urdu words & said he had a very wonderful memories of him being in Pakistan.....
 
Lol this whole story is strange
not buying it


I dont understand this
Qaddafi was a scumbag . he actively supported terrorists Like Al Zulfiqar against Pakistan during Zia era. he was after all in the soviet camp. I cant understand how Pakistani pilots could be there when we had no military relations with them
if its the time when Americans launched an attack on his Palace killing some of his family members then I can safely say we were at odds with Libyans..
i dont know what qaddafi did in past but what he did in recent past was just too dangerous for the elite who are controlling the world today and it was simply unacceptable. he was punished for standing up against the oppression. now dont mention that he was a dictator, had so many females in his harem but he demanded gold for oil and gold and silver currency for whole of africa. after death of saddam in some arab leaders conference he advised them that one by one all of us will be taken .arab leaders including basshar ul assad were laughing at him. libya was a much better place under his rule but then the devil USA came there with their democracy.
 
But why F18s why not f14s? There were 2 gulf of sidra incidents and both of them involved F14s.
 
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This is the type of farsical dellusional bullshit im talking about. Its a well known fact that iraqs are had military assistance from india prior to the gulf war in terms of training. People make up fairy tale stories its a sad fact that many pakistanis on this website live in a fools paradise. All the stated info so far on this thread has been pulled out of peoples bums . Nothing has been verified by actual sources just he said she said bullshit. There was a thread that PAF was on the verge of signing a contract for 40 4.5 gen fighter aircraft in other words a pak member got high on heroine and fell in a trance

Pakistan was on the verge of signing a contract for almost 36 J-10's, but we chose 18 F-16's instead at the time, and since then, those J-10's have been stalled and stalled. That member was likely referring to the J-10, not too unlikely. As for this story, it's not impossible but yes it's unlikely.
 
@Irfan Baloch @Oscar

COVER STORY - AIR FORCE SPECIAL
A SALUTE TO THE PAKISTAN AIR FORCE-
A FIGHTER PILOT REMEMBERS


A former Air Force pilot MALIK AYAZ HUSSAIN TIWANA
looks back at the PAF with pride


The PAF’s flight through all these years has been a journey fraught with challenges, which were met with valour, hard work and fortitude, for God and country. Whether it was flying Air Defence Missions in the Jordan Valley or the Syrian Golan heights or flying armed recce over the blue waters of Mediterranean Sea along the Libyan coast, the Pakistan Air Force came out with flying colours. For a long time the PAF was in North Africa, Central Africa and the Middle East. I remember the day when the President of one of the North African countries asked us, a handful of PAF pilots to attack and destroy a powerful fleet of one of the powers what faith and confidence in the ability of the PAF! (Of course we didn’t oblige!)

http://www.defencejournal.com/sept98/salutetopaf.htm

 
Pakistan was on the verge of signing a contract for almost 36 J-10's, but we chose 18 F-16's instead at the time, and since then, those J-10's have been stalled and stalled. That member was likely referring to the J-10, not too unlikely. As for this story, it's not impossible but yes it's unlikely.
No sir jee. No. Your talking about an old story from musharafs time 10 years ago im talking of a new story in the last few weeks a poster said ''a reliable pakdef member informed him of advanced negotiations of 40 fighter jets which are 4.5 gen +.'' It just ended up being concotted bullshit. No deal was taking place.
 
No sir jee. No. Your talking about an old story from musharafs time 10 years ago im talking of a new story in the last few weeks a poster said ''a reliable pakdef member informed him of advanced negotiations of 40 fighter jets which are 4.5 gen +.'' It just ended up being concotted bullshit. No deal was taking place.

I know, I am familiar with that recent story but I have a feeling it has something to do with Musharraf's story.
 
Found some interesting information regarding a joint PAF & USAF exercise held in Pakistan.



A USAF F-4 Phantom in PAF Mirage gunsight.
image001.jpg


JOINT USAF / PAF AIR EXERCISES IN 1978
by Air Cdre (retd.) Jamal Hussain

PAF used to hold joint excercises with USAF and RAF on a regular basis in the sixty and seventy decades of the previous century. I was fortunate to attend two very comprehensive joint USAF/PAF exercises in April and November/December 1978 codenamed Shabaz 78 and Midlink 78 respectively. I consider it a privilege to be able to share my experiences of the two events with the public in general and my successors, the current generation of PAF fighter pilots.
If you want a peep into the dream and wonderful world of fighter pilots where passion, vocation and profession are rolled into a single homogenous mix, then read on. Welcome to our little world with our idiosyncrasies and jargons that only we relish and are familiar with.

Shahbaz 78
Shahbaz 78, a joint USAF/PAF Exercise was held at PAF Base Masroor in April 1978. A detachment of Mirage Squadron from Sargodha Base was deployed at Masroor for the purpose. The first part of the exercise was fairly straight forward where USAF aircraft conducted night raids at Masroor Base and PAF interceptors flew air defence missions against them. Both the USAF strike elements and PAF’s air defence fighters operated from Masroor. The second half of the exercise was a planned Dissimilar Air Combat Training Camp (DACT) that pitted the formidable F-15s, USAF’s prize new acquisition against PAF’s Mirages and F6s.


One such Wing was deployed at Bittburg in Germany. Besides conducting mutual air combat missions, they frequently flew against Saab-Drakens, Lightnings, Phantoms, Mirages and F-104s belonging to the air forces of their European NATO allies. The stories of how they have been chewing up their adversaries with consummate ease had preceded their arrival. The Wing was deployed at PAF Base Masroor in April 78 to participate in a DACT Camp. I had the privilege of being a member of the Mirage flight deployed at Masroor for the purpose. The F-6 Squadron that participated in the Exercise was commanded by the irrepressible Wing Commander Safdar Mahmood (retired as Air Commodore), better known to his comrades as Safdar Mousey, for reasons I never knew then and still do not know till today.

The gleaming F-15s parked at Masroor tarmac were a sight to behold. Here was the most lethal fighter of its time and we by comparison in our antiquated Mirages and F-6s were going to take them head on, both in the literal and metaphorical sense. How should we plan to achieve this apparently improbable feat?

Vanity is an essential ingredient of fighter pilots and they are generally hopeless optimists with a never say die attitude. We were no different. To prepare ourselves for combat, we studied the flying and weapon characteristics of the F-15s to discover any weakness that could be exploited - we found none. In every regime they outperformed us by a wide margin. But there was one slight advantage we enjoyed. Visual spotting of the F-15 for us was far easier than for the F-15 pilots to establish visual tally with us because as compared to the majestic F-15s, we were only half their size. Their brilliant AI radar with the Target Designator (TD) box feature that was unknown in our part of the world at that point in time however neutralised the drawback. The TD box pinpointed our position on their Heads Up Display (HUD) that aided them immensely in establishing visual contact with us. If only we could fool their AI radar, we stood a chance. Hmmm, time to come up with something unexpected. Think outside the box. That appeared to be our only salvation.

The combined briefings laid down the rules of the game for the camp. All combats would take place in the designated areas from 10,000 Above Ground Level (AGL). The upper height limit was not specified. F-15s would hunt in pairs whereas we had the option of employing up to 4 aircraft though in majority of engagements we also operated in twos. F-15s were to be configured with training AIM-7 Sparrow BVR missiles, along with AIM-9s (heat seeking missiles) and cannons. We only had the heat seekers and cannons but no BVR missiles. The F-15 Airborne Intercept (AI) radar had a pick up range of over 40 NMS; our Mirage AI radar capability was zero and the poor F-6 did not even carry an AI radar.

To even out certain obvious disadvantages of our fleet, it was agreed that we would operate under positive ground radar cover whereas the F-15s would rely on their AI radars. Also, while the F-15s could simulates Sparrow Launch (Fox 1) from long-ranges, staying well clear of the lethal ranges of our missiles and cannons, the engagement would continue till one side managed a heat missile (Fox 2) kill parameter or gunshot cine/video on one or both the adversaries. To resolve the dispute about who took the first shot, the F-15s with their multiple radios were to announce on our channel a kill (Fox 2/Fox 3) immediately on exposing valid gun camera film, after which the stricken aircraft was to remove itself from the combat arena. If we achieved a Fox 2/Fox 3 on the F-15s, without earlier announcement of being ‘foxed’ by the F-15s, the kill would be granted to us subject to its validity from gun camera film assessment.

The show began on the third week of April. According to my log-book, I flew a total of seven missions against the F-15s, from 22nd April to 26 April. In retrospect I consider those five days as the most enjoyable and professionally rewarding week of my flying career. We achieved verifiable kill parameters on the F-15s and in the bargain gave away shots to them. Before revealing the final tally of the week-long camp, I would like to share with my young fighter pilots two episodes which will be of interest to them. To my non-fighter pilot readers I apologise in advance as the next group of paragraphs will be full for fighter pilots’ jargons which only they can truly relish. You are at liberty to skip over these paragraphs if you feel so inclined.

I was to lead a section of two Mirages against a pair of F-15s. Flt Lt Razzaq Anjum was my no 2 (Razzaq rose to the rank of AVM before he embraced martyrdom in the unfortunate Fokker 27 accident). From our earlier experience we knew that there was only one way we could prevail - do the unexpected. We had to somehow make the F-15 pair lose sight of one of us, who could then sneak in for a kill. Given the very impressive performance of the F-15 airborne radar, normal tactics was bound to fail. We had to try something very different.

The standard practice for a pair entering the combat zone is to maintain battle formation that is line abreast and a mile to two miles apart, depending on the nature of threat. We chose to enter the battle arena in close formation, thereby hoping to present a single blip on the F-15 radar scope. We knew they would pick us up at around 40 NMS and seeing a single blip they would wonder about the other bogie. The superior performance of their weapon system just might lull them to a degree of complacency where they might not worry too much about the unaccounted bandit.

When our ground radar reported bandits at 15 NMS, as per our game plan, we did a violent vertical split. I zoomed up while Razzak continued straight towards the target. Soon, Razzak called contact with one of the F-15s which apparently had not established visual tally with him. I saw him go after the F-15 and simultaneously spotted the second F-15 about 3-4 NMS behind Razzak manoeuvring for a missile shot towards him. Apparently, neither of them had spotted me and I found myself favourably placed to go after the second F-15. Warning Razzak of the impending threat which was still a fair distance away from the lethal missile (Fox 2) range, I went after the second F-15. Before I could get in range for a missile shot, either on a warning by his comrade or his spotting me, the F-15 broke hard.

In Mirage and F-6s, our break is normally in the turning plane but the F-15 pilot perhaps banking on the unbelievable thrust to weight ratio of his machine which permitted him to accelerate even while in a vertical climb, chose to break upward knowing that the Mirage would not be able to keep up with it for much longer. I followed him and soon both of us were facing vertical with my speed diminishing rapidly. Because of my initial speed and height advantage, I continued to close in for a valid missile shot and finally was within gun range and managed a decent gun shot before eventually falling off the sky. In the meanwhile Razzak too announced a Fox 2 and Fox 3 on his quarry. Since no Fox had been called on us till then, we had apparently drawn first blood.

I eventually ran out of speed, control and ideas and fell off the sky, recovering without entering into a spin – no thanks to my superior handling – unlike the F-6, Mirage is far more docile and forgiving at low speeds. Pretty soon I saw the F-15 on my tail but he was gentleman enough to come over to our frequency and enquire if I had exposed cine on him. On my answering in the affirmative, the first engagement was called off.

To be fair to the F-15 pair, in the next engagement (in each mission we could carry out up to two mix ups) we were unable to surprise them. They had us both firmly on their radars and rapidly closed in for close quarter one versus one engagement. Our only realistic option was to hightail it and make an immediate exit out of the designated combat zone well before establishment of visual tally by the F-15s. We did not. Despite our twists and turns, barrels, and even threatening to spin out, we were clobbered, but not without putting up a futile albeit a gallant resistance. For the mission the final score stood two for us and two for them – an even contest.

After landing as I met Razzak on the tarmac, he wore a grin that would have made the Cheshire cat proud. “What?” I asked him. “You should see the gunshot I have exposed on the F-15”, he burst out. “Let’s check it out”, I answered. We assessed our films. Both my claims were valid and so were Razzak’s but there was a catch. The minimum safe distance specified in the Rules of Engagement (ROE) during gunshot was 600 feet. In Razzak’s gunshot cine, the Mirage gun sight was the same size as the F-15 canopy – he had closed in to less than a 100 feet of the F-15 and still had the sight sitting pretty and steady. “Oh my God!” I exclaimed. “Hide it. If the bosses see it, both of us would get grounded, if not worse,” “But don’t you agree it is a beautiful sight,” he countered. “I am impressed,” I answered and just could not help marvel at the enthusiasm and ego of my irrepressible no 2.

The mutual debrief was very educative. “How did you stay behind me in the vertical break,” the F-15 leader wondered. “What was your speed when you initiated the break,” I queried. “250 knots,” he answered. “I was closed to 450 kts,” I replied. “That explains it”, he concluded. His no.2 had apparently lost sight of Razzak as he was busy updating his leader on his (leader’s) rather precarious position. I showed him Razzak’s gun camera shot. He was dumbfounded for a few seconds. We saw their gun camera films and in the second engagement they had us good and proper in their sights and they too had closed in to less than 600 feet. Two kills to each pair in the mission was mutually agreed. We complimented the F-15 pair on their professionalism and they too applauded our subterfuge and aggressive handling.

The next episode involved two F-6s flown by Safdar and his No.2 against two F-15s flown by the F-15 Wing Commander, a full colonel and his No 2. I am not aware of how the mix up proceeded but would like to quote from memory the following narration of the event by the USAF Wing Commander:

“On our AI radar we picked up only one target and soon spotted a lone F-6 heading south. Assuming that the other one was not in the arena, I promptly achieved Fox 2 parameter and closed in for a Fox 3 shot. On my stand-by radio I announce,” F-6 flying south, Fox 2 and Fox 3 on you”. Back came the chilling reply, “Which F-6 are you referring at. There are two of us heading south.” Instinctively I swivelled my neck and looked back. Sure enough an F-6 well within the missile range was sitting merrily at my six. It turned out to be the F-6 leader and I could almost imagine him grinning under his helmet, under his bushy moustache.”

What tactics had Safdar’s formation employed to escape radar detection? Why did he not warn his No.2 to break? Perhaps he might have concluded that the No. 2 was a dead duck regardless and why not even the score and bag an F-15 in the bargain. Where was the second F-15? I am not aware of the details and we need to get hold of Safdar and ask him to render his version of the event in his own inimitable style, a style that I can assure you would be both interesting and very hilarious.

The camp was a roaring success. I do not have the official result but if I recall the final kill ratio was roughly 2:1 in favour of the F-15s. In all their other engagements against the likes of Saab Drakens, F-4s, Mirages, Lightnings and F-104s flown by European pilots in Continental Europe, the Wing had apparently enjoyed as high as 20:1 kill ratio in their favour. Our pilots’ aggressive manoeuvring and tactical skills came as a surprise to them.
 
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No sir jee. No. Your talking about an old story from musharafs time 10 years ago im talking of a new story in the last few weeks a poster said ''a reliable pakdef member informed him of advanced negotiations of 40 fighter jets which are 4.5 gen +.'' It just ended up being concotted bullshit. No deal was taking place.
No one is enforcing any thing in your throat.
If you are not buying it, plz leave. Don't spread pollution here. There r enough threads which can facilitate troll speeches .......
I know, I am familiar with that recent story but I have a feeling it has something to do with Musharraf's story.
Nope, it's completely new story. Started some five years ago.
 
I remember the day when the President of one of the North African countries asked us, a handful of PAF pilots to attack and destroy a powerful fleet of one of the powers what faith and confidence in the ability of the PAF! (Of course we didn’t oblige!)

They dont oblige even to this day, when drones make a mockery out of the airspace of the said country. Oh wait this time its not Libya but Pakistan.
Windi no offence but we should really let this false bravado of ours to rest.
 
No sir jee. No. Your talking about an old story from musharafs time 10 years ago im talking of a new story in the last few weeks a poster said ''a reliable pakdef member informed him of advanced negotiations of 40 fighter jets which are 4.5 gen +.'' It just ended up being concotted bullshit. No deal was taking place.

Hi,

It is not an old story---. The J10B's / C's were for the taking by Paf if they chose to---any time---and that was either in the begining of this year or last year---18 of them---from existing stock---and no delays---.
 

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