Missing persons: ISI, MI counsel says RAW and Mossad involved

[lem34]

In the context it means to arrest RAW agents within the country.



No issue of being out of control, as I said, we are the ultimate authority, this zalalat that ISI has to bear is because it is being answerable to its bosses -.

So my arguments about a greater purpose don't deserve a response. My assertions that you want to hold ISI to a higher standard than any other agency by any other country falls on deaf ears. You answer those parts of my assertions that you wish but not the heart of the issue??

You have what we call, "jummah jummah aath din" on the forums. My record is however public and on case by case - Choudharies, Sharifs, Zardaris sab ki baisti hai meri CV pe.

Am sorry don't quite understand what you are saying here. But any misdemeanor on my part does not mitigate or take away from the fact that as you are a senior we take your posts more seriously than most and I have only in the last 6 months noticed you get passionate about bringing our ISI to account.

 

[Awesome]

So my arguments about a greater purpose don't deserve a response. My assertions that you want to hold ISI to a higher standard than any other agency by any other country falls on deaf ears. You answer those parts of my assertions that you wish but not the heart of the issue??

Why should standards of other countries factor in my decision to whether or not I want to give the ISI to shoot me in the head or not. Even if the US declares CIA the god of America, I will still continue to hold the ISI onto the standard defined, and made the law of Pakistan by Pakistanis.

I'm talking Pakistani rights and determinations you keep using Americans as defence as if they are anything to look up to. If you think this is wrong, just change the legislation and put a 4th branch of the government - Executive, Legislative, Judicial and Military. Your misconception that all of Pakistan supports such a solution would be answered in your inability to get the necessary votes for such a democratic change.

In the meantime, what I am saying is what has been penned on paper.

 

[lem34]

No issue of being out of control, as I said, we are the ultimate authority, .

But that's just it as Jefferson said what if someone is trying to use an underhanded method and someone is trying to take that ultimate authority away from us do we still proscribe to behaving in a certain way or do means justify the ends? That is national security

 

[Awesome]

Am sorry don't quite understand what you are saying here. But any misdemeanor on my part does not mitigate or take away from the fact that as you are a senior we take your posts more seriously than most and I have only in the last 6 months noticed you get passionate about bringing our ISI to account.

The military leaders escaped my ire previously in much like you a misplaced sense of patriotism where the military is deemed good, protectors, saviors, honorable men. I would be digressing if I started talking about all their kartootain, which is nothing special, just as much rotten as the feudal lords we dislike but those are Pakistani problems and we can deal with them as we continue to improve upon our enforcement of the law.

Where these military leaders have committed treasonous acts was in their subservience to the United States and that was where I drew the line. This was emphatically clear when on one visit by John Kerry, ISI refrained itself from levying the espionage charge on Raymond Davis, where we learned they had thousands of CIA operatives like Raymond Davis allowed in by the ISI, furthermore we were left with either accepting ISI to be complicit in harboring OBL or too incompetent from finding him in their backyard, lets not forget the kidnappings and missing persons since thats what we are discussing here.

If you would venture out to be so brave, a demand for a higher standard of Pakistaniat would come in naturally.

When it comes to allowing foreign military forces to attack Pakistan, let it be clear, I will not have it and strongly oppose it as should every Pakistani.

 

[lem34]

Why should standards of other countries factor in my decision to whether or not I want to give the ISI to shoot me in the head or not. Even if the US declares CIA the god of America, I will still continue to hold the ISI onto the standard defined, and made the law of Pakistan by Pakistanis.

I'm talking Pakistani rights and determinations you keep using Americans as defence as if they are anything to look up to. .

No the reason that I was using Americans or other jurisdictions as a comparison was not to suggest that they are perfect or something to aspire to. As I have alluded earlier and that is that what you say is correct in theory but in practice it simply does not work. Please show me where your utopia or nirvana exists where Judiciary trumps national Security?? Please do and I will accept your assertions. But I think you wont cos it does not exist

 

[Awesome]

No the reason that I was using Americans or other jurisdictions as a comparison was not to suggest that they are perfect or something to aspire to. As I have alluded earlier and that is that what you say is correct in theory but in practice it simply does not work. Please show me where your utopia or nirvana exists where Judiciary trumps national Security?? Please do and I will accept your assertions. But I think you wont cos it does not exist

Implementing the written law is not utopia or being in a state of nirvana (which is not relevant here), but calling it utopia does not mean its something so out there that its not doable. Killing bad. Stop people from killing. Killers = ISI people. Stop ISI.

Don't kill me without a trial - not an unfair ask.

 

[lem34]

. If you think this is wrong, just change the legislation and put a 4th branch of the government - Executive, Legislative, Judicial and Military. Your misconception that all of Pakistan supports such a solution would be answered in your inability to get the necessary votes for such a democratic change.

In the meantime, what I am saying is what has been penned on paper.

Maybe that is something we need to look at in the future. But I would for the moment be ecstatic if we could have a democracy and not the sham that exists at the moment

Where these military leaders have committed treasonous acts was in their subservience to the United States and that was where I drew the line. This was emphatically clear when on one visit by John Kerry, ISI refrained itself from levying the espionage charge on Raymond Davis, where we learned they had thousands of CIA operatives like Raymond Davis allowed in by the ISI, furthermore we were left with either accepting ISI to be complicit in harboring OBL or too incompetent from finding him in their backyard, lets not forget the kidnappings and missing persons since thats what we are discussing here.

If you would venture out to be so brave, a demand for a higher standard of Pakistaniat would come in naturally.

When it comes to allowing foreign military forces to attack Pakistan, let it be clear, I will not have it and strongly oppose it as should every Pakistani.

You know I know what you have said above is true but its really difficult to swallow mate. How can I be a Pakistani patriot and not agree with your sentiments above. But the difference between us is that you blame the two institutions the Army and ISI whereas I blame maybe 10 or 15 senior most officers in the army who had the power to alter what happened.

Implementing the written law is not utopia or being in a state of nirvana (which is not relevant here), but calling it utopia does not mean its something so out there that its not doable.

But no country however egalitarian has managed to implement a system where the Judiciary has tried or been allowed to trump national security

 

[Awesome]

Maybe that is something we need to look at in the future. But I would for the moment be ecstatic if we could have a democracy and not the sham that exists at the moment

A proper democracy comes in with the rule of law.

These feudal lords - ISI paid Sharif brothers and made them the force they are today. Not exactly feudal lords, but they are Industrialist politicians which pretty much means the same category of people.

Then coming to feudal lords, who did the NRO deal? Kayani sahab as DG ISI which resulted in the AG sending a letter to the Swiss courts ke maaf kardoh Zardari ko for all the millions he has stolen from Pakistan.

How can you blame just civilian politicians? Woh toh jooti ki dhuul nahi hain, gandh phailanay main compared to these guys. Excuse my language but woh toh inkay tattoo hain samaj lo.

I'm very glad that there are cases against all three corruption powers of Pakistan. The Presidency, the Premiership and the intelligence at least the fear of God would come within the next ones that take power. If this war goes on any longer, the chief sahab won't escape his lies and deception on Drone attacks either. Anyway code 663 email is out there which may draw in some flak on the Chief sahab since he still has to explain how did May 2 attacks happen in Pakistan and once again chief moonh dekhte reh gaye.

 

[lem34]

^^^^^ so your axe to grind is with the generals. Ok I live with that but you can be critical of the senior officers without being critical of the institutions

I'm very glad that there are cases against all three corruption powers of Pakistan. The Presidency, the Premiership and the intelligence at least the fear of God would come within the next ones that take power. If this war goes on any longer, the chief sahab won't escape his lies and deception on Drone attacks either. Anyway code 663 email is out there which may draw in some flak on the Chief sahab since he still has to explain how did May 2 attacks happen in Pakistan and once again chief moonh dekhte reh gaye.

Will not take issue with you on this.

 

[Awesome]

^^^^^ so your axe to grind is with the generals. Ok I live with that but you can be critical of the senior officers without being critical of the institutions



Will not take issue with you on this.

I can never have issue with the institutions where the sipahi class is fighting and putting its life at risk to protect mine. Its the people who are making such 'awesome' policies that need to be made to pay for their crimes.

 

[lem34]

I can never have issue with the institutions where the sipahi class is fighting and putting its life at risk to protect mine. Its the people who are making such 'awesome' policies that need to be made to pay for their crimes.

Fine I agree with you

 

[MastanKhan]

When it comes to allowing foreign military forces to attack Pakistan, let it be clear, I will not have it and strongly oppose it as should every Pakistani.

Asim,

So you opposed it---then what are you going to do afterwards????

Is bashing the ISI a new agenda of yours---what are you upto. What has prompted you in starting the ISI bashing.

Who benefits by bashing the ISI---who benefits when the isi is put to shame----.

 

[Awesome]

Asim,

So you opposed it---then what are you going to do afterwards????

Lawful methods only, except of course as a public conscience if it is collectively decided to overthrow this government, I will be there doing the march.

Usually lawful methods work, from all corners of Pakistan, they are getting "gandha". There will be a time when they would either fix themselves or get thrown in jails.

COAS cannot keep standing down to attacks upon Pakistan and think he is not committing treason in each instance. The noose has tightened around the ISI, President and PM - other cases against Moonis Ilahi, Hamza Sharif also exist. Bass bacha hua hai toh ek General Pervez Kayani. On drones, unko bulawa bhi anay wala hai jald.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Cloak and dagger stuff needs to be left under covers----any hearings that need to be done---need to be done closed doors. You can have objections the way the army acts or the air force retaliates--because their dealings and operations are public knowledge---but to smash and bash the intel agy like that is tantamount to cutting your own feet.

You have to ask this question----why are these hearing being done at this time----who benefits from these hearing. Any defence related issue that there is----the bottomline question is--does the enemy benefit more---if it does---then you need to take a step back.

Now as for Kiyani----you have to remember---only the millitary knows its weaknesses and strengths---regardless of how they propagate themselves. The problem with pak millitary is that it cannot talk back in the same language that the u s millitary can in front of the tv camera.

 

[lem34]

COAS cannot keep standing down to attacks upon Pakistan and think he is not committing treason in each instance. The noose has tightened around the ISI, President and PM - other cases against Moonis Ilahi, Hamza Sharif also exist. Bass bacha hua hai toh ek General Pervez Kayani. On drones, unko bulawa bhi anay wala hai jald.

I was under the impression that we had agreed earlier on this thread it wasn't the agencies and institutions you had a issue with but the leadership of those agencies??