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M60 Phoenix Main Battle Tank

Alzarrar is a radical upgrade of Type 59 and 69 mbts with more than 250 changes in every dimension ranging from 125 mm indigenous smoothbore gun, fire control, optics, IIT, thermal imagers (Thetis TI from Italy, 2nd Gen), jammers, LWS, newly designed composite armour as well and ERA, 730 or 1000 hp multi fuel turbo charged engine instead of original 530 hp, auto transmission, track pads, new suspension with torsion bar, hydraulic dampers combo, newly developed shells and DU rounds, even the chassis is upgraded. FCS is from Krauss Maffei (Germany).

Even after all this, it is considered as a 2nd Gen tank with 3rd gen upgrades/ capabilities. Additional anti spall kevlar armour platings are applied all over the vehicle for added protection.


Type 59 is a first generation tank while M-60 is a second generation tank, you can't just compare between them, too many differences.

List of main battle tanks by generation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
I was a fan of Russian tanks and preferred them over the Western ones, but as soon as you get a good idea about tanks and it's parts as well as operation history, you would absolutely change your view.
Modern Western MBT's never faced a similarly capable opponent, which is why i gave the example of the GW1 where high tech M1A1's went up against second hand low quality Iraqi T-72's with primitive systems. A World power vs a Iraqi army which was already spent after a decade of war with Iran, its like a bully picking on a weak kid, beating him up and thus "proving" he's the most strongest. Perhaps if the bully faced someone his own size results might have been the complete opposite.

There are Eastern Tanks that are up to the standards of or even surpass many of the overly hyped Western MBT's. Sure, the West has had a far better track record of quality systems vs the East in the PAST, but today the world has become globalized, there is no exclusive trading and exchanging of knowledge/technology between a certain block or alliance of nations only.

Eastern powers like China and in some cases Russia are catching up to their western counterparts and might even exceed them in the field of R&D due to the economic crisis the West is currently in.

Keep in mind that after the Soviet Union collapsed, or even during the economic crisis the Soviets found themselves in before the final disintegration, Soviet scientists defected or sold sensitive technology to Western block nations and other who could afford. Similarly the Chinese and other Eastern powers who have a lot of $$ can buy off Western Scientists if the possibility arises or might already have, considering the capitalist nature of the West and the China of today. As they say money talks.
 
Type 59 is a first generation tank while M-60 is a second generation tank, you can't just compare between them, too many differences.

List of main battle tanks by generation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read the post again buddy, :)

Alzarrar upgrade is applied to both Type 59/ 69 mbts in Pak Army service. Not to mention, it can also be applied to other mbts of similar origins be it 1st gen or 2nd gen, the purpose is to bring them on par with 3rd gen mbts.
 
Read the post again buddy, :)

Alzarrar upgrade is applied to both Type 59/ 69 mbts in Pak Army service. Not to mention, it can also be applied to other mbts of similar origins be it 1st gen or 2nd gen, the purpose is to bring them on par with 3rd gen mbts.

I did read it, however I think we have discussed this too much, and it seems you won't get the idea that M-60 Phoenix was upgraded to meet NATO standards and not just a local upgrade of a Chinese 1st gen tank. Actually, you have clearly contradicted yourself by saying the 1st gen tank is on par with 3rd gen tank like Abrams or T-80, while you have been arguing me since yesterday that a 2nd gen tank can't become 3rd gen tank, and it's just an upgrade. It's not enough to have a 125 mm main gun or the other mentioned upgrades to say it's on par with 3rd gen tanks.
 
Let the pictures speak:

type 59

300px-Type_59_tank_-_front_right.jpg


Al-Zarrar

800px-Alzarrar.jpg


M-60

M60-A1-2.jpg


M60 Phoenix

m60phoenix2.jpg
 
I did read it, however I think we have discussed this too much, and it seems you won't get the idea that M-60 Phoenix was upgraded to meat NATO standards and not just a local upgrade of a Chinese 1st gen tank. Actually, you have clearly contradicted yourself by saying the 1st gen tank is on par with 3rd gen tank like Abrams or T-80, while you have been arguing me since yesterday that a 2nd gen tank can't become 3rd gen tank, and it's just an upgrade. It's not enough to have a 125 mm main gun or the other mentioned upgrades to say it's on par with 3rd gen tanks.

My friend, the only thing i am trying to convey is, there is a difference between an old system getting an upgrade and a ground up new design with latest fighting capabilities already covered. My part of debate ends here.

On a side note, the above AZ pic is not the one in service, the one in service has a completely redesigned turret with composite armour, rather squarish :)

j8BQH.jpg
 
My friend, the only thing i am trying to convey is, there is a difference between an old system getting an upgrade and a ground up new design with latest fighting capabilities already covered. My part of debate ends here.

On a side note, the above AZ pic is not the one in service, the one in service has a completely redesigned turret with composite armour, rather squarish :)

j8BQH.jpg

If not wrong then HIT has the capability to produce Al-Zarrar from all of the old Chinese Models like:
Type 59, Type 69-II and Type 85-IIAP. So we can Upgrade them in three blocks with locally developed Electrical and Electronics system with Italy or France including optical technology that can be helpful for other Arms division too.
Al-Zarrar Block-I(1200 Type 59)
Al-Zarrar Block-II(400 Type 69-II)
Al-Zarrar Block-III(500 Type 85-IIAP/Type 85-III)

Like we can offer these tanks to other Military like in Afghanistan and keep just 100 of each block types in Pakistan Army reserves.
 
Hey, not fair:no:

You chose the best pictures for your Tank while you posted the the image of a Al-Zarrar phase 1 Tank.

The current Al-Zarrar in service has a newly designed turret:

c3b676edfad8b2541d7bd15abebe4afe.jpg


AlZarrar_001.jpg

Actually, that pic was on Wikipedia page of this tank, look, it's not a matter of Iraqi T-72 performance in GW2, we (Fans of Russian tanks) used to have big arguments with a very respectable and knowledgeable tank specialist in Arab military forums, he proved that Eastern tanks have serious shortcomings in their designation, flaws in storage of fuel and ammunition, short life of their main guns (series of main guns came before 2A46M), weakness of armor protection, light weight, the advantages and disadvantages of the auto loading system, and superiority of of Western sight equipment. So, I believe Western tanks are superior.

From one of his topics:

As a result of the Russian Army's mauling at the hands ofthe Chechen rebels-particularly the disastrous assault on Grozny on 31 December 1994, the Kremlin made a shocking admission ofshortcomings at a televised scientific-technical conference at Kubinka on 20 February 1995.
Defense Minister Pavel Grachev admitted that unnecessary casualties were sustained due to the T-80Y's vulnerabilities: short range, flammable fuel and ammunition stowage, thin upper surface armor.

62268594ph1.jpg


fuelsystemint90xh5.jpg

Bitten by their own RPGs, the Russians have developed a defensive countermeasure that solves some of the technological problems addressed at Kubinka.

The Arena Active Protection System, developed at the Kolomna-based Engineering Design Bureau, is designed to provide protection from antitank grenades and ATGMs, including those with top-attack £^ warheads.

Arena is foreseen as useful, both on battlefields where the latest generation of 3-8 km ATGMs
vj prevail and during peacekeeping operations and LICs, where the greatest threats are from light antitank weapons.

Arena includes three major subassemblies. Inside the turret, and taking up about 30m
3 , is the target detection and tracking equipment (computer, TC's control panel, command signals converter unit).

J— The radar itself is fitted to a 'Kladivo'-style folding radar mast, mounted on the centerline at the rear of ~^ the turret roof. The octagonal radar panel assembly is fairly large, approximately 1.5m
3 .

^^ Launchers, which the makers call 'silos,' are mounted around the turret, reminiscent ofthe BDD 'Horse *^ Shoe' armor. They provide a 110-degree arc of protection, centered on the gun tube (Russian reactive ** armor kits weigh the same as an active kit, but only cover a 35-40 degree arc). The system has 22 to 26 rounds, depending upon the type of tank, which are mounted so that they provide overlapping 'fields of fire.' Unlike reactive armor, an expended round will not leave a hole in the defensive curtain. 1- short range, 2- flammable fuel and 3- ammunition stowage, 4- thin upper surface armor. Bitten by their own RPGs The silos are armored against splinters and bullets to prevent accidental detonation ofthe rounds. The whole 27 V system weighs 1,000-1,100 kg and consumes 1 kW of power.


The description ofthe system in use sounds fairly simple. Prior to entering a hostile area, the TC turns the system on. Arena automatically tracks incoming rounds, ignoring incoming rounds until they're within 50m, then engaging anything approaching at speeds of 70-700 m/s. False targets, such as outgoing rounds, near misses, birds, small projectiles (like bullets or splinters) would be ignored.

When fired, the round detonates the warhead at a stand-off distance of a few meters, so that the
double-charge ATGM warheads designed to defeat reactive armor are rendered impotent. Time to detect and destroy a threat is .07 sec, with .2 to .4 sec for the system to reset. The danger zone for accompanying infantry is 20-3Om.

If necessary, the TC can manually override and fire the system. The number ofremaining rounds are
displayed on the TC's control panel. The rounds are rectangular and reloadable by the crew.

The Arena system, which can be fitted to new production tanks as well as existing ones scheduled for rebuilds, is expected to double the tanks' survivability during assaults and reduce losses from 1.5 to 1.7 Arena-fitted tanks are not supposed to create electromagnetic interference while working with other tanks. The manufacturers also claim that the system is extremely immune to ECM.
Support for the system has also been addressed by the manufacturer. Subsystems are modular and can be pulled for fast replacement. Test and control equipment is mounted on a cross-country capable truck, for forward maintenance.

Like the T-90, this system may not be fielded in substantial numbers with Russian forces for some time, due to budgetary constraints.

* I have put the source itself here since his topic is in Arabic.
 
Actually, that pic was on Wikipedia page of this tank, look, it's not a matter of Iraqi T-72 performance in GW2, we (Fans of Russian tanks) used to have big arguments with a very respectable and knowledgeable tank specialist in Arab military forums, he proved that Eastern tanks have serious shortcomings in their designation, flaws in storage of fuel and ammunition, short life of their main guns (series of main guns came before 2A46M), weakness of armor protection, light weight, the advantages and disadvantages of the auto loading system, and superiority of of Western sight equipment. So, I believe Western tanks are superior.

From one of his topics:

As a result of the Russian Army's mauling at the hands ofthe Chechen rebels-particularly the disastrous assault on Grozny on 31 December 1994, the Kremlin made a shocking admission ofshortcomings at a televised scientific-technical conference at Kubinka on 20 February 1995.
Defense Minister Pavel Grachev admitted that unnecessary casualties were sustained due to the T-80Y's vulnerabilities: short range, flammable fuel and ammunition stowage, thin upper surface armor.

62268594ph1.jpg


fuelsystemint90xh5.jpg

Bitten by their own RPGs, the Russians have developed a defensive countermeasure that solves some of the technological problems addressed at Kubinka.

The Arena Active Protection System, developed at the Kolomna-based Engineering Design Bureau, is designed to provide protection from antitank grenades and ATGMs, including those with top-attack £^ warheads.

Arena is foreseen as useful, both on battlefields where the latest generation of 3-8 km ATGMs
vj prevail and during peacekeeping operations and LICs, where the greatest threats are from light antitank weapons.

Arena includes three major subassemblies. Inside the turret, and taking up about 30m
3 , is the target detection and tracking equipment (computer, TC's control panel, command signals converter unit).

J— The radar itself is fitted to a 'Kladivo'-style folding radar mast, mounted on the centerline at the rear of ~^ the turret roof. The octagonal radar panel assembly is fairly large, approximately 1.5m
3 .

^^ Launchers, which the makers call 'silos,' are mounted around the turret, reminiscent ofthe BDD 'Horse *^ Shoe' armor. They provide a 110-degree arc of protection, centered on the gun tube (Russian reactive ** armor kits weigh the same as an active kit, but only cover a 35-40 degree arc). The system has 22 to 26 rounds, depending upon the type of tank, which are mounted so that they provide overlapping 'fields of fire.' Unlike reactive armor, an expended round will not leave a hole in the defensive curtain. 1- short range, 2- flammable fuel and 3- ammunition stowage, 4- thin upper surface armor. Bitten by their own RPGs The silos are armored against splinters and bullets to prevent accidental detonation ofthe rounds. The whole 27 V system weighs 1,000-1,100 kg and consumes 1 kW of power.


The description ofthe system in use sounds fairly simple. Prior to entering a hostile area, the TC turns the system on. Arena automatically tracks incoming rounds, ignoring incoming rounds until they're within 50m, then engaging anything approaching at speeds of 70-700 m/s. False targets, such as outgoing rounds, near misses, birds, small projectiles (like bullets or splinters) would be ignored.

When fired, the round detonates the warhead at a stand-off distance of a few meters, so that the
double-charge ATGM warheads designed to defeat reactive armor are rendered impotent. Time to detect and destroy a threat is .07 sec, with .2 to .4 sec for the system to reset. The danger zone for accompanying infantry is 20-3Om.

If necessary, the TC can manually override and fire the system. The number ofremaining rounds are
displayed on the TC's control panel. The rounds are rectangular and reloadable by the crew.

The Arena system, which can be fitted to new production tanks as well as existing ones scheduled for rebuilds, is expected to double the tanks' survivability during assaults and reduce losses from 1.5 to 1.7 Arena-fitted tanks are not supposed to create electromagnetic interference while working with other tanks. The manufacturers also claim that the system is extremely immune to ECM.
Support for the system has also been addressed by the manufacturer. Subsystems are modular and can be pulled for fast replacement. Test and control equipment is mounted on a cross-country capable truck, for forward maintenance.

Like the T-90, this system may not be fielded in substantial numbers with Russian forces for some time, due to budgetary constraints.
Some of the old FSB reports have stated that the chechens were armed with Milan ATGM's and Rpg's from dzokhor Dudayev's militia and dudayev's militia was mainly afghan veterans.Dzokhor himself was a former Soviet general .
And the iraqi t-72 weren't even standard T-72 but local makes(lion of babylon monkey models) which would have an hard time standing up to Russian T-62 also.Also the sabot rounds were steel made(obsolete then) make not Tungsten carbide or DU .
 
Some of the old FSB reports have stated that the chechens were armed with Milan ATGM's and Rpg's from dzokhor Dudayev's militia and dudayev's militia was mainly afghan veterans.Dzokhor himself was a former Soviet general .
And the iraqi t-72 weren't even standard T-72 but local makes(lion of babylon monkey models) which would have an hard time standing up to Russian T-62 also.Also the sabot rounds were steel made(obsolete then) make not Tungsten carbide or DU .
Lion of Babylon (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Most of Iraqi arsenal of T-72 were Soviet-made. Iraq had the standard T-72M at the time. Chechen rebels anti tank armaments was mainly RPG-7. Aside from Chechen and Iraq wars, how do you explain the best performance of Jordanian army that used Western tanks among other Arab armies which used Soviet tanks in all Arab-Israeli wars? Russians themselves admitted their tanks serious flaws. Afterall, it's well known that Soviets followed the doctrine of quantity over quality, so, they tried to make up the inferiority of their tanks by producing more numbers.
 
lion of babylon was a stripped down, monkey version of T-72 in every way, armour was thin, gun was inaccurate and ammunition was dated, heck they used AP shells from t-59s because soviet supplied shells were as good as duds. RPGs are still relevant against the best tanks out there since all of them have some weak spots, so is an IED. Russian tanks have inherited problems but they also have several advantages such as a powerful gun which allows for higher shell velocity resulting better penetration of thick armour at 2-3 km range, missile firing, low profile makes it difficult to spot the tank, and a speedy vehicle due to less weight, powerful engine/ transmission combo. all of these are vital in a tank battle, Many techs were first developed by russians, such as infrared jammers and other soft and hardkill counter measures like Drozd, Arena etc.
 
Most of the eastern tanks flaws are not because of eastern concept but because of sloppy design and low quality production. And because of slow reaction of producers to technological advancements.

On paper a three-man, auto-loading, 125mm, lighter tank idea is not flawed. But i think using all steel armor plus ERA blocks is no more an option against NATO tanks. They phucking have to use composite armors with some good ceramic percentage it's 2012 now. In my theory, If you make a new T80 with this configuration, bring it to a good 60-65 metric tons 1500hp standard it can beat M1A2SEP single handedly.

Because non of the problems you mentioned: short range, flammable fuel and ammunition stowage and thin dorsal armor is related to core concept of eastern tank. I think these are just results of being light.
 
Most of the eastern tanks flaws are not because of eastern concept but because of sloppy design and low quality production. And because of slow reaction of

On paper a three-man, auto-loading, 125mm, lighter tank idea is not flawed. But i think using all steel armor plus ERA blocks is no more an option against NATO tanks. They phucking have to use composite armors with some good ceramic percentage it's 2012 now. Make a new T80 with this configuration, bring it to a good 60-65 metric tons 1500hp standard it can beat M1A2SEP single handedly.

Actually the Russians are answering this debate themselves. Looking at the T-95 concept and the Armata concepts both are more inclined to western design this time and almost abandoning the eastern tank concept all together.

But I am yet to see things other than designs and concept arts as of yet.
 
@Mosamania, you should wait untill i finish editing my post :)

Anyway, I think It's black eagle all over again. They should never have developed T90.

Because in my humble opinion T64 line still beats T72 line.
 

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