Kashmir front - High Wing loading JF17, F-16 and Mi35

[GuardianRED]

yep, try telling that to your fellow countrymen who have little to zero acquaintance with flying and aircraft maintenance. And the red flag example is ridiculous to say the least. The reality is quite the opposite. Try asking that to an honest IAF MKI crew member and come and argue it here.



Mate, did you care to read the post to which i replied before calling your savior and tagging me as going offtopic?? Read both again to get ghe context.

and Just because u say SO ... IT IS ridiculous??? ... wow, that is a laughable statement!

The 100% availability isn't quoted by any Indian articles , but quoted in articles posted by reporters and journalist present at the Red Flag alaska , All these articles are posted in this thread

https://defence.pk/threads/su-30mki-super-sukhoi-upgrade-program.417507/page-9

Do us a favour and read them!

Cheers!

 

[MilSpec]

im not a fighter expert but I do know that TWR plays an important part in things like "take off" etc..


As for underpowered etc.. I simply asked if you know the TWR of the so called underpowered JF.. Which was confirmed by PAF at Paris Airshow.

JF17 is more than adequately powered.

your so called long range fighter has less than 50% availability for sortie generation while our has more than 90%.

I have just started,

I may not have been a MKI aircrew but I have been part of the launch containment in my younger days. the figure that you are trying to tout is from a CAG Audit, but if you know anything about stats, baseline is established for improvements and streamlining. Please with all due respect let ask for an available audit report for your 90% figure with references.

And the Jet aircraft you are indeed referring to is a a Long Range fighter, you implying "so called" doesn't stem from it's service rate, it's quality, it's paint scheme but from it's actual range and payload. You are a respected member here, atleast try to be objective in your posts.

Indians always making their own fairy tale war stories , laughing by themselves, crying by themselves, trolling by themselves and being left alone by themselves never talk about peace so many behind the screen hero's here but they never talk about friendship and peace for once rather then talking about star wars. War is nothing pretty their will be massive damage on sides a lot of lives lost and etc lets hope and pray for peace for once.

relax, the OP is by a new member, let him be around for a bit... His queries can be objectively responded to , and there is no need to paint everyone with the same brush.

 

[ziaulislam]

thread should be closed
none sense troll thread

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think the thread is just speculative

• JF17 Thunder / F16 C/D , are all Functional and ready for any defenses
  
• MI-19 is purely used for Transport

There is no engineering link that states there is any limitation just speculation

 

[Signalian]

Basics 101. Mountain warfare, you need artillery. High precision artillery backed by infantry and mechanised infantry. Anybody, even remotely suggesting air power for dominance in mountain warfare has read too much of fiction.

More like Heliborne infantry.

Though the Jf17 the engine does have a lower thrust in comparison to other modern fighters, its low weight, and its aerodynamic profile means for take off it can be pretty nimble:

Once in the air it can make use of its higher altitude, and maneuvering to its advantage.

The Mi-35 i agree is a notoriously slow and bulky aircraft, but its primary function is for troop transport and in that capacity its functional, for the war on terror they are great aircraft as they are fairly low cost to maintain, and provide a tactical advantage in areas with inhospitable terrain such as Baluchistan or Waziristan.

Aircraft in inventory which are better suited to reconnaissance and attack in the Kashmir region are the bell helis and cobra attack helicopters (along with the new viper helis), both cobra and viper helicopters are superior the the LCH heli, and even though the bell helicopters are outdated they have been upgraded with modern equipment like infrared cameras and such.

It should also be noted that the primary doctrine of the Armed forces in Kashmir is defense rather than offense, and I think the current aircraft are suitable to suit this, while the older aircraft are well purposed to fight militants for the time being. Perhaps as older aircraft get phased out, more newer (maybe domestic?) aircraft will be inducted which are better suited to the Kashmir environment.

A few points :

1. Pakistan Gunships like Cobra has primary Anti Tank role in Plains of Southern Punjab and Sindh.
2. The helicopter role in kashmir is more of transport/supply/med Evac role.
3. Primary doctrine of the Armed forces in Kashmir is Offensive rather than defensive. Pakistan wants to take Kashmir.

 

[4GTejasBVR]

Forget Kashmir, How about little Higher?
In Skardu

or
Himalaya Mountains?
You can see it is fully loaded.
View attachment 334321


Its not for Kashmir.
Most probably Pakistan will use either AH1Z or T129B as gunship in Kashmir sector.


Wrong.
Jf17 will be utilized as Multi role air craft and various tasks which even F16 cannot perform will be performed by Jf17.

Jf17 is not a ''defensive platform'' buddy. You don't develop series of stand off weapons for a defensive platform.
You can call F7PG as ''defensive air craft'' as it will serve as point range interceptor.

Discussion should not be about fully loaded or not. How fighter jets responds with fully loaded against twin engined fighters of IAF. As you know Indias program are to meet operational needs of Indian armed forces and includes high altitude warfare. As a result we have Tejas (delayed but finally arrived) with very high agile with two WVR and can perform decently when fully loaded at Leh or high altitude combat zone. LCH also made in same perspective. MKI are beasts in these aspects. Rafale and Mirage will shine at times of war. .
Rumored that IAF buying Rafale will be be able carry 1-.5 ton more than Rafale operated by France. With some tweaks with engine or new variant engine . This is not conformed but very possible. If true then this will give us more space space to carry more weapon at hight altitude warfare than our adversaries can carry. Pakistan has vision and aspirations but lacks money and lacks diplomatic space to pitch for better systems.

 

[Signalian]

Mi35 :

This is again a heavy beast, though only 4 are on order, Pak will buy more in future for sure. Now they are kept for western border of Pakistan, mostly for anti terror ops but a machine of this caliber limited just to no air threat Jihadis is not wasting the capability of it? Wouldn't it be good with limited resources to buy more versatile or multirole machines that can help Pakistan in Kashmir, the only place they need serious power.

We have to use Mi17 last time in Kargil even after having Mi 35.

They again cant be used in Kashmir against India.

Mi-35 can be given a role for CPEC protection in KPK and Baluchistan area after its role finishes in anti-terror operations on western border.

 

[ghazi768]

This thread is not about glory or weakness of JF17 but about a certain design aspect please stay on that if you can else dont post and derail.

While reading about Pakistan defence procurement and equipment I come across this thought many times, PDF seems to be a good place where experienced professionals can help me understand it better.

Right from '47 attack on Kashmir, Pakistan had tried various strategies to conquer Kashmir irrespective of means and so far all our conflicts/wars are more concentrated in that particular area. Whenever there will be next war it will again concentrated more in Kashmir as opening another front in Punjab, Rajasthan or Gujarat wont be possible for Pakistan and its more like an advantage of India to open these front. Having said that our future conflict/war is generally limited to high altitude warfare in Kashmir.

Now when the objective is clear the preparedness or doctrine will be accordingly but while examining some important assets of Pakistan I am little surprised that is just opposite to it, I will take just two examples here.

JF17 :

Keeping aside all the who wha of trolls, I would like to talk about it more objectively and its role. As I have said Indo-Pak war is more limited to Kashmir domain and its India that is more likely to open another front on low altitude International border rather than Pakistan, I would like to know how will JF 17 fare in Kashmir.

Two basic aspect I would like to discuss about is:
1) Wing area of JF-17 is just 24.4 sq.mtr. which makes it ridiculously high wing loading which in turn favors it at supersonic speeds but induce a big penalty during take off.

2) Engine of JF17, PAF have so far miraculously managed low crash rate even with single engine jet of Russian engine (kudos to them) but the thrust of RD 93 coupled with low wing area makes it even more grim to take off with high loads and at high altitudes I wonder will it ever take off with all 7 hardpoints occupied with full load even with KM's long airstrip.

I would like to know why PAF preferred a low wing area and low powered jet as its backbone of airforce when they are most likely to fight in high altitude only and these two factors combined induces penalty on performance in those altitudes.

Beside the low number of Airbase in Kashmir, I am yet to see JF17 in Kashmir area (if anyone else have link of performance please share.). The JF17 bases are in Karachi, Peshawar and none in Kashmir or any mountainous area (info based upon wikipedia).

Mi35 :

This is again a heavy beast, though only 4 are on order, Pak will buy more in future for sure. Now they are kept for western border of Pakistan, mostly for anti terror ops but a machine of this caliber limited just to no air threat Jihadis is not wasting the capability of it? Wouldn't it be good with limited resources to buy more versatile or multirole machines that can help Pakistan in Kashmir, the only place they need serious power.

We have to use Mi17 last time in Kargil even after having Mi 35.

They again cant be used in Kashmir against India.


Now comparing this to India, which is most probably preparing exclusively for high altitude warfare with low wing loading Tejas or double engine long range Su30MKI and high altitude gunship LCH it seems India is on right track for mountainous warfare. While PAF doctrine/preparedness looks like mystery that how will they fight in Kashmir with old F-16 against Flankers and other IAF assets.


I would like to keep this discussion more of academic than troll fest, tagging a few username I know please add more and if there is mod please keep it clean. @MilSpec @hellfire @PARIKRAMA @MastanKhan

why do you think that JF-17 has ridiculous wing loading, your MKIs have a higher wing loading? JF-17s wing-loading is in neighbourhood of F-16 A/Bs which are couple of tons lighter than C/Ds.

Also why do you consider its TWR to be low, you m2ks have a lousy TWR and that even before being loaded for strike missions? Actually for bombing missions it is desirable to be laden especially when flying low.
maximum weight limits are actually not for take-offs but for 'safe' landings.

 

[Dazzler]

JF17 is more than adequately powered.


I may not have been a MKI aircrew but I have been part of the launch containment in my younger days. the figure that you are trying to tout is from a CAG Audit, but if you know anything about stats, baseline is established for improvements and streamlining. Please with all due respect let ask for an available audit report for your 90% figure with references.

And the Jet aircraft you are indeed referring to is a a Long Range fighter, you implying "so called" doesn't stem from it's service rate, it's quality, it's paint scheme but from it's actual range and payload. You are a respected member here, atleast try to be objective in your posts.


relax, the OP is by a new member, let him be around for a bit... His queries can be objectively responded to , and there is no need to paint everyone with the same brush.

just because it is from CAG, and not from the IAF personnel or the maintenance crew, doesnt mean it holds less weight, may be more.

The fact that the MKI regardless of its long range or heavy payload capability does not change the fact that less availability does hamper its operators capability beyond any doubt. How good is the range and payload when your aircraft spends most of the time at maintenance depot?

Lastly, i would appreciate if you ask your fellow members to rather open constructive threads instead of formulating elaborate troll invitaions.

Hope this cleared the Smog.

 

[krash]

Thank you for those images, I sincerely hope you read the post before you took the road to "enlightenment". Its more about penalty induced while take off at high altitude and not service ceiling if you know the difference.

Again the same problem in comprehension.

"I was asking for exactly same, so far no squadron is mountain based neither can I find link on google about JF 17 trial in GB or Kashmir however Tejas got multiple videos and exhaustive testing in that region. If you got links please share." - BlackOpsIndia

https://defence.pk/threads/kashmir-front-high-wing-loading-jf17-f-16-and-mi35.449318/#post-8686113

 

[Surya 1]

Every design has their pros and cons. You have to sacrifice something to get something. We choose relatively draggy design in tejas to optimize trans-sonic performance and high angle of attack. Pakistan too would have some philosophy in mind while choosing the design. However the high wing loading design of JF 17 appears to be a bad one for carrying high pay load, flying at very high altitude, low speed dog fight and high angle of attack.

 

[Av8er]

Discussion should not be about fully loaded or not. How fighter jets responds with fully loaded against twin engined fighters of IAF. As you know Indias program are to meet operational needs of Indian armed forces and includes high altitude warfare. As a result we have Tejas (delayed but finally arrived) with very high agile with two WVR and can perform decently when fully loaded at Leh or high altitude combat zone. LCH also made in same perspective. MKI are beasts in these aspects. Rafale and Mirage will shine at times of war. .
Rumored that IAF buying Rafale will be be able carry 1-.5 ton more than Rafale operated by France. With some tweaks with engine or new variant engine . This is not conformed but very possible. If true then this will give us more space space to carry more weapon at hight altitude warfare than our adversaries can carry. Pakistan has vision and aspirations but lacks money and lacks diplomatic space to pitch for better systems.

Then you should have nothing to worry about against an inferior enemy? Why so insecure?

Every design has their pros and cons. You have to sacrifice something to get something. We choose relatively draggy design in tejas to optimize trans-sonic performance and high angle of attack. Pakistan too would have some philosophy in mind while choosing the design. However the high wing loading design of JF 17 appears to be a bad one for carrying high pay load, flying at very high altitude, low speed dog fight and high angle of attack.

And your qualifications for making such claims are...?

 

[Windjammer]

[QUOTE="BlackOpsIndia, post: 8686494, member: 178791

Tagging one more PAF enthusiast but most of the time its more trolling than logic from him, hope he shed some light on this @Windjammer and not disappoint.
[/QUOTE]

It's amazing that members who joined the forum allegedly just last week consider themselves qualified to judge others. !!!
Anyways, the JF-17 has already gone through wing strengthening process which was demonstrated late last year as it delivered two Mk-84 bombs from wing stations, a capability until then was only available with F-16s.....since then, the JF-17 has evolved into a true multi role platform as it has the capability to carry and deliver most weapons in PAF inventory.

JF-17 Thunder, like any other fighter aircraft can carry multiple long-range and short-range air-to-surface missiles and can perform its interceptor role but modern day interceptors are expected to do more than just interception missions so they are also named as Multi Role Combat Aircrafts due to the versatility of the nature of the job they do. Pakistan Air Force uses its MRCA’s as both fighters and bombers. JF-17 allows us to mount any desired weapon for the completion of the mission. It can carry general purpose bombs, laser guided munitions, runway penetration bombs, anti-radiation anti radar weapons, stand-off missiles, anti-ship missiles and nuclear capable cruise missiles whereas carrying air-to-air missiles is a primary purpose of any combat aircraft.

The base commander PAF Masroor said in a program broadcasted on this 6th September Defense Day that Pakistan Navy was previously using Mirage aircrafts with less capabilities in anti-ship roles but JF-17 Thunder provides us much longer range, endurance and versatility in the weapons. Now together the aircraft and the weapons it uses make us able to surprise our enemy in war times. Now we can hunt our enemies to the ranges which they think that we cannot reach.

 

[Super Falcon]

This thread is not about glory or weakness of JF17 but about a certain design aspect please stay on that if you can else dont post and derail.

While reading about Pakistan defence procurement and equipment I come across this thought many times, PDF seems to be a good place where experienced professionals can help me understand it better.

Right from '47 attack on Kashmir, Pakistan had tried various strategies to conquer Kashmir irrespective of means and so far all our conflicts/wars are more concentrated in that particular area. Whenever there will be next war it will again concentrated more in Kashmir as opening another front in Punjab, Rajasthan or Gujarat wont be possible for Pakistan and its more like an advantage of India to open these front. Having said that our future conflict/war is generally limited to high altitude warfare in Kashmir.

Now when the objective is clear the preparedness or doctrine will be accordingly but while examining some important assets of Pakistan I am little surprised that is just opposite to it, I will take just two examples here.

JF17 :

Keeping aside all the who wha of trolls, I would like to talk about it more objectively and its role. As I have said Indo-Pak war is more limited to Kashmir domain and its India that is more likely to open another front on low altitude International border rather than Pakistan, I would like to know how will JF 17 fare in Kashmir.

Two basic aspect I would like to discuss about is:
1) Wing area of JF-17 is just 24.4 sq.mtr. which makes it ridiculously high wing loading which in turn favors it at supersonic speeds but induce a big penalty during take off.

2) Engine of JF17, PAF have so far miraculously managed low crash rate even with single engine jet of Russian engine (kudos to them) but the thrust of RD 93 coupled with low wing area makes it even more grim to take off with high loads and at high altitudes I wonder will it ever take off with all 7 hardpoints occupied with full load even with KM's long airstrip.

I would like to know why PAF preferred a low wing area and low powered jet as its backbone of airforce when they are most likely to fight in high altitude only and these two factors combined induces penalty on performance in those altitudes.

Beside the low number of Airbase in Kashmir, I am yet to see JF17 in Kashmir area (if anyone else have link of performance please share.). The JF17 bases are in Karachi, Peshawar and none in Kashmir or any mountainous area (info based upon wikipedia).

Mi35 :

This is again a heavy beast, though only 4 are on order, Pak will buy more in future for sure. Now they are kept for western border of Pakistan, mostly for anti terror ops but a machine of this caliber limited just to no air threat Jihadis is not wasting the capability of it? Wouldn't it be good with limited resources to buy more versatile or multirole machines that can help Pakistan in Kashmir, the only place they need serious power.

We have to use Mi17 last time in Kargil even after having Mi 35.

They again cant be used in Kashmir against India.


Now comparing this to India, which is most probably preparing exclusively for high altitude warfare with low wing loading Tejas or double engine long range Su30MKI and high altitude gunship LCH it seems India is on right track for mountainous warfare. While PAF doctrine/preparedness looks like mystery that how will they fight in Kashmir with old F-16 against Flankers and other IAF assets.


I would like to keep this discussion more of academic than troll fest, tagging a few username I know please add more and if there is mod please keep it clean. @MilSpec @hellfire @PARIKRAMA @MastanKhan

This is why I'm saying we need dedicated airsuperiority muscle powered twin engine jet but most idiot people don't see what options it bring on table when you have ten time biggest enemy world highest battlefield to fight and on top of it they do Randi Rona of maintenance issues of SU 35 price issues

If we can't buy required jets to defend our air this is why iaf have upper hand slowly stupids in PAF realizing it

Today PAF in quality and quantity and requirements are far far behind IAF

 

[AUz]

The answer is quite simple: PAF didn't "opt" for anything, it got JF-17. The spear of PAF in any scenario where it undertakes a strike mission is likely to be F-16s. JF-17 will primarily be utilized in interceptor profile.

For resource constrained Airforce like PAF which is looking to build up the numbers with a defensive focus JF-17 offers great value.

All said and done even IAF with all it's 250+ SU-30 Mkis, Mirages, Mig -29s and Jaguars would be loath to enter Pakistani territory with the air defence systems and fighter concentration PAF has. So reverse would be equally true.

Only thing which can change the status quo are the Stealth Fighters which to this date USA alone possess.

What are you talking about?

iaf will over run PAF in three days maximum without sustaining any massive losses itself. That's what I have been told by gullible indians all my life. Don't break my bubble of living in the comfort knowing that indians on the other side of border are just gullible, sad little fanboys cut-off from reality of modern warfare.

Don't talk sense!!!