JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[MastanKhan]

Totally, agree to Usman Shabbir's analysis..... unfortunately people on this forum don't like him very much.

Hi,

That is not the case----the JF 17 is not a victim of geographical but that of poor planning and design by PAF. The bottomline is---if the product is good---if it is presented with the right options and packages that the buyer needs and wants----there will be nothing that would stop the sale of the entry level aircraft. And it must have a version that says---seating for 2.

So---basically the BLK 2 JF 17 would be the real first aircraft for sale for the PAF. JF 17 Blk 1 is a NON AIRCRAFT---.

People on this forum don't like them s because they are a 'kiss arse' forum.

 

[Donatello]

Hi,

That is not the case----the JF 17 is not a victim of geographical but that of poor planning and design by PAF. The bottomline is---if the product is good---if it is presented with the right options and packages that the buyer needs and wants----there will be nothing that would stop the sale of the entry level aircraft. And it must have a version that says---seating for 2.

So---basically the BLK 2 JF 17 would be the real first aircraft for sale for the PAF. JF 17 Blk 1 is a NON AIRCRAFT---.

People on this forum don't like them s because they are a 'kiss arse' forum.

Sir, JF-17 marketing one side, let's first agree on what JF-17 is. It is a light weight, multirole aircraft designed specifically for PAF, to offer true multi-role and BVR capabilites at a low procurement and running costs. There is no other aircraft in the world with the same capabilities in the same cost-benefit analysis. Now it fulfills the PAF's needs to have an aircraft in numbers that can take on the likes of migs, mirage 2000s and perhaps the F-16s. This forms the backbone. PAF is impressed by its capabilities which means they would pursue to keep updating the aircraft......the variety of weapons in can employ, even F-16s cannot do that without US restrictions....it can carry bvr roles, anti-ship, anti-armor, anti-radiation etc.
So the possibilities are endless. PAF seems to be carried away by the fact that they can also export the fighter to nations that may not have access to US/European equipment due to cost or diplomatic reasons. A good example being, Bangladesh or Argentina. Egypt is a no brainer, since they have access to the Latest French, Russian and US equipment.
What PAF should be doing now is get the aircraft in service and full integrated with all the weapons. Have it's own squadrons fully raised and combat ready. Then it needs to build up its own numbers, at least 2 more squadrons, so the buyer is confident in the ability of the aircraft. PAF seems to have been carried away not because JF-17 is good, but the fact that it can be a money making machine like the F-16 was for GD/LM. Truth is, we do not have a marketing or manufacturing capability of that scale. This is a first project, so there will always be delays. The focus should be on the task that was intended for JF-17, and that is equipping PAF first and foremost. When PAF has enough numbers, you'll automatically have free slots on the assembly line and you can deal with exports then. If PAF exports now, it would need to export it's technical manpower as well for training and logistics and that will drain PAF's own plans.

 

[OTTOMAN]

Hi,

That is not the case----the JF 17 is not a victim of geographical but that of poor planning and design by PAF. The bottomline is---if the product is good---if it is presented with the right options and packages that the buyer needs and wants----there will be nothing that would stop the sale of the entry level aircraft. And it must have a version that says---seating for 2.

So---basically the BLK 2 JF 17 would be the real first aircraft for sale for the PAF. JF 17 Blk 1 is a NON AIRCRAFT---.

People on this forum don't like them s because they are a 'kiss arse' forum.

Sir, i think we are not politically that strong to beat influential states.
This is kind of sales where buyer should be a professional and should be able to recognize all technical and economical dimensions, but still if they are going for expensive french who´s life time cost is 10x more than JFT than its nothing but political influence.
I´m 100% sure, if Sisi don´t buy from France, next day Brotherhood will topple his govt.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Totally, agree to Usman Shabbir's analysis..... unfortunately people on this forum don't like him very much.

@Sulman Badshah calls Pakdef "Pakistan Military Consotium Think Tank" - That sounds way more impressive than what it actually is. It is basically a play-pen of Mush lovers who have no tolerance of dissent. If you do not tow the line, H Khan and Usman Shabbir will be on you in a heart beat. Many senior posters here on PDF have been on Pakdef at one time or another and left because of dictator-ship mind-set. Here, you can abuse mods and they typically put up with it for the sake of freedom of expression. Trust me on this.

Certain journalists who happen to write on matters relating to defense solicit opinions from PakDef to improve article word count. So, don't be fooled by the phrase "Pakistan Military Consortium". If I recall correctly, Usman Shabbir is in IT field and is not a bonafide expert. H Khan seems to be retired military person, but he is known to make out-landish claims, some of which have been laugh at.

In the end, what Usman Shabbir says is just an opinion. Take it at face value and don't be impressed with self-awarded titles. I doubt if anyone at PakDef knows even marginally more about JF-17 related issues than some well-informed posters here, particularly @Oscar

JF-17 has achieved important milestones and has been a major boost for Pakistan's Arms Industry, and PAF. If we are able to export it, then that would put a stamp of success on this project. However lack of export orders does not take anything away from its value for Pakistan and PAF. We should wait for Block III and tell it comes along, its best not to say too much.

 

[Paksanity]

That is not the case----the JF 17 is not a victim of geographical but that of poor planning and design by PAF. The bottomline is---if the product is good---if it is presented with the right options and packages that the buyer needs and wants----there will be nothing that would stop the sale of the entry level aircraft. And it must have a version that says---seating for 2.

So---basically the BLK 2 JF 17 would be the real first aircraft for sale for the PAF. JF 17 Blk 1 is a NON AIRCRAFT---.

JF-17 was not designed by PAF. It was designed by Chinese. PAF set requirements and Chinese designed an aircraft that meets those requirements. Often exceeds actually.

PAF was all too aware of the importance of dual seat version for training. They did not have the money. Development costs are to be borne by Pakistan and the cost Chinese set for developing two seat version was high enough. This money was not allocated by initially Pervez Musharraf and then by Zardari. Tu Kia PAF chanda jamma karti? They had to deal with whatever they had. China doesn't have large stake in JF-17 export so they are not bothered much. PAF, nevertheless flew this aircraft extensively with no incident that can be attributed to lack of two seat version. There are examples of aircraft being successfully exported without two seat version. Like A-5 which never had a two seat version but was exported successfully two five countries outside China.

Political influence counts a lot but its not the only factor in export success. Northrop from US developed an excellent light tactical fighter just after F-16s were being inducted in USAF. F-20 Tigershark was most advanced fighter at that time in its class. It never got an export customer. None had doubt on how good the aircraft was but it was not able to find a buyer. F-20 developed around 1984 still matches and sometimes exceeds performance of JF-17 of today. It was offered to Pakistan with ToT. In fact Northrop was ready to install its production line here but we went the F-16 way. This may have been a mistake by PAF.

 

[SQ8]

In the end, what Usman Shabbir says is just an opinion. Take it at face value and don't be impressed with self-awarded titles. I doubt if anyone at PakDef knows even marginally more about JF-17 related issues than some well-informed posters here, particularly @Oscar.

To summarize Pak Def, these are the people you see hanging around IDEAS events reading everything and bugging pilots or the drawing room hogs of Uncles, After which they come up with "analysis". As far as my knowledge on the JF-17 goes, I dont claim to be updated on the latest, and my info is from 2012...however, it is as authentic as it gets and as time has proven.. accurate.

 

[MastanKhan]

JF-17 was not designed by PAF. It was designed by Chinese. PAF set requirements and Chinese designed an aircraft that meets those requirements. Often exceeds actually.

PAF was all too aware of the importance of dual seat version for training. They did not have the money. Development costs are to be borne by Pakistan and the cost Chinese set for developing two seat version was high enough. This money was not allocated by initially Pervez Musharraf and then by Zardari. Tu Kia PAF chanda jamma karti? They had to deal with whatever they had. China doesn't have large stake in JF-17 export so they are not bothered much. PAF, nevertheless flew this aircraft extensively with no incident that can be attributed to lack of two seat version. There are examples of aircraft being successfully exported without two seat version. Like A-5 which never had a two seat version but was exported successfully two five countries outside China.

Political influence counts a lot but its not the only factor in export success. Northrop from US developed an excellent light tactical fighter just after F-16s were being inducted in USAF. F-20 Tigershark was most advanced fighter at that time in its class. It never got an export customer. None had doubt on how good the aircraft was but it was not able to find a buyer. F-20 developed around 1984 still matches and sometimes exceeds performance of JF-17 of today. It was offered to Pakistan with ToT. In fact Northrop was ready to install its production line here but we went the F-16 way. This may have been a mistake by PAF.

Sir,

You are giving an example that is not right. Those aircraft were coming from an already established aircraft manufacturing conglomerates for functioning air forces---. Those were 'mechanical' times---

The performance that you are mentioning is that of the engine only---technically JF 17 is so far superior that it might be closer to the other end of the rainbow if compared too those 80's aircraft.

Today's mindset is that of the iPhone kind---everyone wants an iPhone 6---fully equipped with all the options and for dimes on the dollar.

If they needed 'chanda' for a more potent product---then they should have asked for it---rather than make an average product.

Pakistani mirages come with 2 seater as well----how abut the F7's----and they carry half the load of the JF 17---

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, JF-17 marketing one side, let's first agree on what JF-17 is. It is a light weight, multirole aircraft designed specifically for PAF, to offer true multi-role and BVR capabilites at a low procurement and running costs. There is no other aircraft in the world with the same capabilities in the same cost-benefit analysis. Now it fulfills the PAF's needs to have an aircraft in numbers that can take on the likes of migs, mirage 2000s and perhaps the F-16s. This forms the backbone. PAF is impressed by its capabilities which means they would pursue to keep updating the aircraft......the variety of weapons in can employ, even F-16s cannot do that without US restrictions....it can carry bvr roles, anti-ship, anti-armor, anti-radiation etc.
So the possibilities are endless. PAF seems to be carried away by the fact that they can also export the fighter to nations that may not have access to US/European equipment due to cost or diplomatic reasons. A good example being, Bangladesh or Argentina. Egypt is a no brainer, since they have access to the Latest French, Russian and US equipment.
What PAF should be doing now is get the aircraft in service and full integrated with all the weapons. Have it's own squadrons fully raised and combat ready. Then it needs to build up its own numbers, at least 2 more squadrons, so the buyer is confident in the ability of the aircraft. PAF seems to have been carried away not because JF-17 is good, but the fact that it can be a money making machine like the F-16 was for GD/LM. Truth is, we do not have a marketing or manufacturing capability of that scale. This is a first project, so there will always be delays. The focus should be on the task that was intended for JF-17, and that is equipping PAF first and foremost. When PAF has enough numbers, you'll automatically have free slots on the assembly line and you can deal with exports then. If PAF exports now, it would need to export it's technical manpower as well for training and logistics and that will drain PAF's own plans.

Hi,

You are correct in your comments---PAF just needs to focus on manufacturing enough aircrafts to fill the gap. Upgrade the blocks as necessary---just keep on plugging---.

And PAF stop making any further statements about foreign sales----. Why create unnecessary anxiety where none is needed---.

@Sulman Badshah calls Pakdef "Pakistan Military Consotium Think Tank" - That sounds way more impressive than what it actually is. It is basically a play-pen of Mush lovers who have no tolerance of dissent. If you do not tow the line, H Khan and Usman Shabbir will be on you in a heart beat. Many senior posters here on PDF have been on Pakdef at one time or another and left because of dictator-ship mind-set. Here, you can abuse mods and they typically put up with it for the sake of freedom of expression. Trust me on this.

Certain journalists who happen to write on matters relating to defense solicit opinions from PakDef to improve article word count. So, don't be fooled by the phrase "Pakistan Military Consortium". If I recall correctly, Usman Shabbir is in IT field and is not a bonafide expert. H Khan seems to be retired military person, but he is known to make out-landish claims, some of which have been laugh at.

In the end, what Usman Shabbir says is just an opinion. Take it at face value and don't be impressed with self-awarded titles. I doubt if anyone at PakDef knows even marginally more about JF-17 related issues than some well-informed posters here, particularly @Oscar

JF-17 has achieved important milestones and has been a major boost for Pakistan's Arms Industry, and PAF. If we are able to export it, then that would put a stamp of success on this project. However lack of export orders does not take anything away from its value for Pakistan and PAF. We should wait for Block III and tell it comes along, its best not to say too much.

Sir,

You are correct in your assessment---. You cannot dissent with the powers to be---. That is why that place stinks of 'rot'.

 

[fatman17]

The latest report (January 2015) indicated that one FC-1 prototype (#0213) was testing a new environmental control system for the high temperature/high humidity environment, presumably at the request of potential customers from Africa, South Asia or South America.

 

[Pak+]

Read this news in Today's Newspaper (NawaiWaqat) :

​

نائیجریا پاکستان سے جے ایف 17 طیارہ خریدنے والا پہلا ملک ہوگا​

اسلام آباد (سہیل عبدالناصر) نائیجیریا پہلا ملک بننے والا ہے جو پاکستان سے لڑاکا طیارہ جے ایف 17 تھنڈر خریدے گا۔یہ افریقی ملک اس لڑاکا طیارہ کے علاوہ پاکستان سے اسلحہ و بارود حاصل کرنے والا بڑا گاہک بن جائے گا۔ ان سودوں کیلئے دونوں ملکوں کے درمیان سمجھوتوں کے مسودے تقریباً مکمل ہیں جن پر جلد دستخط ہو نے جا رہے ہیں۔ وزارت دفاع کے ذرائع کے مطابق صدر مملکت ممنون حسین کے حالیہ دورہ نائیجیریا کے موقع پر ان دفاعی سودوں پر بات چیت میں اہم پیشرفت ہوئی جس کے ثمرات جلد سامنے آنے والے ہین۔ یہ امر قابل ذکر ہے کہ مصر،میانمار اور وینزویلا بھی جے ایف 17 تھنڈر کے ممکنہ خریداروں کی فہرست میں شامل ہیں لیکن مصر میں مرسی حکومت کے خاتمہ اور امارات کی طرف سے پرانے لڑاکا طیاروں کی مصر کو فراہمی کے اعلان کے بعد مصر کو جے ایف 17فروخت کرنے کے امکان کم ہوئے۔ جے ایف 17 کے کم از کم دو سکواڈرن خریدنے میں دلچسپی رکھتا ہے۔ سودا ہونے کی صورت میں نائیجیریا کو جے ایف 17 بلاک ٹو اور بلاک تھری طیارے فروخت کئے جائیں گے۔​

 

[HRK]

Read this news in Today's Newspaper (NawaiWaqat) :

نائیجریا پاکستان سے جے ایف 17 طیارہ خریدنے والا پہلا ملک ہوگا​

اسلام آباد (سہیل عبدالناصر) نائیجیریا پہلا ملک بننے والا ہے جو پاکستان سے لڑاکا طیارہ جے ایف 17 تھنڈر خریدے گا۔یہ افریقی ملک اس لڑاکا طیارہ کے علاوہ پاکستان سے اسلحہ و بارود حاصل کرنے والا بڑا گاہک بن جائے گا۔ ان سودوں کیلئے دونوں ملکوں کے درمیان سمجھوتوں کے مسودے تقریباً مکمل ہیں جن پر جلد دستخط ہو نے جا رہے ہیں۔ وزارت دفاع کے ذرائع کے مطابق صدر مملکت ممنون حسین کے حالیہ دورہ نائیجیریا کے موقع پر ان دفاعی سودوں پر بات چیت میں اہم پیشرفت ہوئی جس کے ثمرات جلد سامنے آنے والے ہین۔ یہ امر قابل ذکر ہے کہ مصر،میانمار اور وینزویلا بھی جے ایف 17 تھنڈر کے ممکنہ خریداروں کی فہرست میں شامل ہیں لیکن مصر میں مرسی حکومت کے خاتمہ اور امارات کی طرف سے پرانے لڑاکا طیاروں کی مصر کو فراہمی کے اعلان کے بعد مصر کو جے ایف 17فروخت کرنے کے امکان کم ہوئے۔ جے ایف 17 کے کم از کم دو سکواڈرن خریدنے میں دلچسپی رکھتا ہے۔ سودا ہونے کی صورت میں نائیجیریا کو جے ایف 17 بلاک ٹو اور بلاک تھری طیارے فروخت کئے جائیں گے۔​

though Naw-e-Waqat is known for exaggeration, but this is one new which we want to be true .... keep fingers cross

 

[raazh]

Read this news in Today's Newspaper (NawaiWaqat) :

نائیجریا پاکستان سے جے ایف 17 طیارہ خریدنے والا پہلا ملک ہوگا​

اسلام آباد (سہیل عبدالناصر) نائیجیریا پہلا ملک بننے والا ہے جو پاکستان سے لڑاکا طیارہ جے ایف 17 تھنڈر خریدے گا۔یہ افریقی ملک اس لڑاکا طیارہ کے علاوہ پاکستان سے اسلحہ و بارود حاصل کرنے والا بڑا گاہک بن جائے گا۔ ان سودوں کیلئے دونوں ملکوں کے درمیان سمجھوتوں کے مسودے تقریباً مکمل ہیں جن پر جلد دستخط ہو نے جا رہے ہیں۔ وزارت دفاع کے ذرائع کے مطابق صدر مملکت ممنون حسین کے حالیہ دورہ نائیجیریا کے موقع پر ان دفاعی سودوں پر بات چیت میں اہم پیشرفت ہوئی جس کے ثمرات جلد سامنے آنے والے ہین۔ یہ امر قابل ذکر ہے کہ مصر،میانمار اور وینزویلا بھی جے ایف 17 تھنڈر کے ممکنہ خریداروں کی فہرست میں شامل ہیں لیکن مصر میں مرسی حکومت کے خاتمہ اور امارات کی طرف سے پرانے لڑاکا طیاروں کی مصر کو فراہمی کے اعلان کے بعد مصر کو جے ایف 17فروخت کرنے کے امکان کم ہوئے۔ جے ایف 17 کے کم از کم دو سکواڈرن خریدنے میں دلچسپی رکھتا ہے۔ سودا ہونے کی صورت میں نائیجیریا کو جے ایف 17 بلاک ٹو اور بلاک تھری طیارے فروخت کئے جائیں گے۔​

Although a lone Urdu news source does not seem to be that credible .. however Nigeria is in dire need of attack jets to put a stop on Boko Haram group. None of the western source is willing to offer them a quick solution and the Russian option seems unfavorable due to high operational and maintenance costs of Mig29's. Apart from that Russia is not in a good financial situation either. So JF17 is highly likely to be a front runner in this case. Backed by Strong Chinese financing options and probably PAF "ADVISERS" (for campaign against Boko Haram) the deal seems favorable. But as you know in the defense industry .. its not over: till it is OVER.

 

[Pak+]

Some important facts form above news:

• President Mamnoon Hussain's visit to Nigeria last year. (First Pakistani President to visit Nigeria in 32 years)
• Nigeria is interested in 2 Squadrons of JF 17.

Also Nigerian Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Adesola Nunayon Amosu's visit to Pakistan in last October show that some talks of material nature are going on for purchase of JF 17.

 

[fatman17]

Let's wait until the deal is signed and delivered - most likely scenario.

 

[Windjammer]

Argentina and China are to form a working group to look at the possible introduction into Argentine Air Force (Fuerza Aérea Argentina - FAA) service of a new Chinese fighter type, it was disclosed on 5 February.

The working group, which was discussed during a visit by between Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner to Beijing from 2 to 5 February, will look at the possible transfer of a range of military equipment to Buenos Aries. Chief among this equipment is either the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) FC-1/JF-17 or the CAC J-10 fighter aircraft.

Ahead of any transfer of aircraft, the working group will examine means by which the FAA might integrate such aircraft into its inventory, and support them once in service. Argentina stands to receive 14 fighter aircraft should the proposed transfer go ahead, though no timelines have been revealed.

ANALYSIS
For some years now, Argentina has been trying to replace its antiquated and increasingly unserviceable Dassault Mirage IIIEA, IAI Dagger, and McDonnell Douglas A-4 Skyhawk fighter fleets with a newer and more capable type.

News of the Argentine-Chinese working group comes weeks after it was reported that Russia had courted Argentina with the possible lease of Sukhoi Su-24 'Fencer' strike aircraft. While the UK Ministry of Defence took these reports seriously enough to review the defence of the Falkland Islands, the Su-24s would have no really operational utility for the FAA, and it would appear that any proposed transfer of such aircraft is likely the result of Russia playing political games with the UK over the continuing crisis in Ukraine.

Other, more realistic, options that have been touted over recent months include surplus Spanish Mirage F1s, Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) Kfirs, and Saab Gripen E/Fs. All of these appear to have stalled for either economic or political reasons (the proposed buy of the Gripen E/F was effectively vetoed by the UK, which manufactures many of the aircraft's systems).

The Chinese FC-1/JF-17 has also been previously touted as a possible option for the FAA, so it is interesting to see it once again mentioned with this latest Argentine-Chinese agreement. The J-10, however, has not been mentioned in relation to the FAA before.

First unveiled in 2006, the J-10 bears more than a passing resemblance to the 'Euro-canard' Gripen, Dassault Rafale, and Eurofighter Typhoon fighters (it has been claimed that the J-10 was actually developed from the Israeli Aerospace Industries Lavi, which was itself modelled from the Lockheed Martin F-16).

The single-seat, single-engined, fighter has a top speed of Mach 1.8 at altitude, a service ceiling of 55,000 ft, is cleared to +9/-3 g , has a radius-of-operation of 300 n miles (555 km; 345 miles), and a payload of 6,600 kg (14,550 lb) on 11 hardpoints. Weapons options include PL-8 (Python 3) or later air-to-air missiles (AAMs) such as PL-11 or PL-12; Vympel R-73 and R-77 AAMs; C-801 or C-802 air-to-surface missiles; YJ-8K (anti-ship) or YJ-9 (anti-radiation) missiles; and up to six 1,000 lb laser-guided or free-fall bombs. There is also an internally-mounted 23 mm cannon, and the provision for a Chinese-developed infrared/laser navigation and targeting pod.

The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) is believed to have a requirement for up to 300 J-10s, and its inclusion in the FAA's inventory would represent a significant capability boost for Argentina.

Argentina and China agree fighter aircraft working group - IHS Jane's 360