JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[Viper0011.]

Orangzaib, when you quote me and talk about 'you guys take your own ball and run with it.' .... etc, you are assuming that I am one of those excitable fan-boys who just ran with the rumor. I take offence at such a depiction at my expense. Would you please be decent enough to either show me to be one of those, or remove my reference from your post?
And we had just concluded an absolutely dreadful 5 year term by PPP which incidentally came to power as a result of a process which had something to do with USA playing host to negotiations between PPP leadership and Musharraf. Instead of pressurising Musharraf to conduct free and fair elections, USA merely negotiated with Musharraf to 'allow' PPP to come to power while Musharraf continued as 'president'.
While you reflect on our thought process and express your dismay, please do also reflect upon strategic games being played around us. I trust that you will find that USA is not blameless in this predicament of ours. Yeah, every nation looks for its interest, but USA is the only one which does so and blames its victims for the outcome. Your post being a good exposition of this mind-set.

Here we go again. Re-read your post about three times and you'll see the reference with my post above. The whole argument went from Pakistanis having unrealistic expectations to the US being the one to blame?
Right now you have a government in place that EVERYONE in the West thought was pro-talibastards. Did the US stop them from winning the elections? NO. Because the US wants Pakistan to be a stable country and succeed. They wanted the people to vote and bring about change in the current environment peacefully so the US didn't interfere in the elections. However, about the past, when you have two corrupted leaders as you suggested above (Musharaf and the PPP)......who do you think the US will support? The lesser of the evil and the one who is more democratic ..... but supporting empty stomach doesn't mean anything. PPP had the biggest voter base too at that time but they were corrupted and people saw through it n 5 years.
Here is the result of people realizing they picked the wrong leader....PPP folks are very limited in numbers in your parliament today......THAT was the purpose behind the US's supporting elections and democracy and that is exactly how it works. In a democratic environment you peacefully wait for your turn and bring change through the people. Not through violence and extremism.
To go against Musharraff (introducing PPP as a democratic party), then forcing the military NOT to intervene (that's why you had 5 years completed by the FIRST government in Pakistan in over 7 decades) and then let people pick and choose the next set of leaders....was the plan and it has worked like a charm. Now, I can barely see another military coupe in Pakistan's future. You now have a COAS who's followed direction from the civilian leadership on the NW operation. He's waited and gotten approval. He's now given a go and he'll hit these talibastards hard and that would bring about peace and stability in your country. The owner of this ....is the political system. Not the military. Can you see this happening just a few years ago in a country like Pakistan? THAT's change! and a good one where the people rule!
I think all those goals were accomplished. So how is everything US's fault here?
Also, this topic here again is taken over by the US hatred. The issue we were discussing was how Pakistanis create unreal expectations with others and go to the other side of extreme negativity when unreal expectations aren't met. I am standing by it, you can re-read both of your post and see how you guys don't take responsibility. And at the end, KSA, the US, and everyone is not sincere to Pakistan. There are other members who are saying the same thing too. I am just being a little more blunt than anything else. And this isn't personal. It's a debate and I am trying to point out something that I can see being an outsider looking in.

 

[Chak Bamu]

@orangzaib

1. So you would not either quote me to prove me to be an excitable fanboy, or apologize. Instead you would repeat half truths. How does that reflect upon yourself?

2. I pointed at USA's meddling in Pakistan's political affairs. First you say that Pakistanis are to blame for choosing their leaders, and then you tell us that the 'plan' worked like a charm. So then, according to you Pakistanis are to blame and 'planners' are blameless. What sort of analysis is that? Are you not assuming that USA is a benevolent power who interferes in other nations' affairs for goodness' sake? I hope you see my point now.

3. Had USA not interfered, we Pakistanis would have done the job ourselves. USA wanted to retain its influence and propped PPP for this reason. Had Washington pressured Musharraf to allow everyone to contest polls freely, the outcome would have been different and PPP might not have had the chance to loot as freely as it did. That was my point. You are blaming Pakistanis for electing thieves without accounting for USA's influence at work.

4. I do not mind you being blunt. I respect your honesty. I just wish you were a little bit more discriminating in apportioning blame. In case you have not noticed already, there is hardly anyone on PDF who supported, or would support PPP and its band of thieves. We mostly agree with what you have to say. You are essentially preaching to the choir here.

 

[Viper0011.]

@orangzaib

1. So you would not either quote me to prove me to be an excitable fanboy, or apologize. Instead you would repeat half truths. How does that reflect upon yourself?

2. I pointed at USA's meddling in Pakistan's political affairs. First you say that Pakistanis are to blame for choosing their leaders, and then you tell us that the 'plan' worked like a charm. So then, according to you Pakistanis are to blame and 'planners' are blameless. What sort of analysis is that? Are you not assuming that USA is a benevolent power who interferes in other nations' affairs for goodness' sake? I hope you see my point now.

3. Had USA not interfered, we Pakistanis would have done the job ourselves. USA wanted to retain its influence and propped PPP for this reason. Had Washington pressured Musharraf to allow everyone to contest polls freely, the outcome would have been different and PPP might not have had the chance to loot as freely as it did. That was my point. You are blaming Pakistanis for electing thieves without accounting for USA's influence at work.

4. I do not mind you being blunt. I respect your honesty. I just wish you were a little bit more discriminating in apportioning blame. In case you have not noticed already, there is hardly anyone on PDF who supported, or would support PPP and its band of thieves. We mostly agree with what you have to say. You are essentially preaching to the choir here.

Man, with all due respect, you talk about sensitive strategic issues like you are reading a Harry Potter book. What world do you live in??
If you read my posts around this subject, I've said it numerous times, if you guys were up to speed focusing on your national issues, the world won't have to get involved. But, you guys point fingers in a different direction and shift the blame.
If the US hadn't been meddling with your matters, today, the issue of terrorism would be ten fold vs. what it is now. Even now it is really really bad. The US forced you guys to take some steps, looking at the future bigger picture. How far were the talibans a few years ago from Islamabad???
The point No 2 & 3 sound like if the US hadn't interfered, Pakistan would be a much better place.....Really? How many people on a day get killed by the terrorists today across Pakistan? Its because you guys failed to dismantle their hideouts after years of "do more", please "do more", look these are crazy bastard*s and won't care about you or your strategic depth and will kill anyone so PLEASE do more to eliminate their safe heavens. And what happened? Today, they crawl from FAT to Karachi at will, attack and kill civilians, government facilities, etc, etc. You guys need to start taking responsibility.

The START of the current democracy was because of the US help. The US doesn't go tell an average voter to vote for x, y or z. She DOES tell dictators or others to be democratic, etc otherwise they'll lose the aid, etc. That's not meddling. That's "influencing" to make the right decision. At that time, the PPP said a lot of good things and was the only party that Musharraf wanted in due to his issues with the Shariff's. Tell you the truth, 5 years of corrupted democratic government is STILL better than 5 years of dictatorship. Because it educates people about the wrong choices they made and builds institutions. At the end, it is the PEOPLE who should rule. Not generals or anyone else. Because of that so called influence you mentioned above....today you HAVE democracy, your judiciary is utmost powerful, etc and there are institutions that got built since Musharraff that didn't exist before. Could you see current leaders returning from exile under Musharraf's rule? or even PPP not taking another hit like Benazir??
Today, there are almost 100 billion worth of estimated foreign investment that is supposed to be flowing through your system in the next few years, or as soon as the terrorists get dismantled and the security situation improves. Your stock market has almost close to doubled in volume over the past three years. Can you imagine anyone pouring in 10 billion a few years ago? I don't think so. So THANKS to the American influence to introduce democracy that actually lasted and forced the military to refrain from taking over again. And people get to vote. Now, I don't see the military process would repeat itself again. Countries are run by politicians, businessmen and lawyers. Not by a general who shows up on the national tv in uniform and shows fists to show his power as if he's performing in a circus! What would you like to deal with for your own retirement investments, a guy who speaks normally, explains to you your money, return on it, etc, etc or a guy who tells you to invest or else and you may or may not see the return on your own money? The later is a military general that knows just to be hard headed and use force. This is true for ANY country btw.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

if u want to discuss us meddling in pakistani politics open a new thread

 

[SQ8]

Gentlemen, LETs return to the JF-17.

 

[Viper0011.]

Gentlemen, LETs return to the JF-17.

Sorry about that. I won't post here off topic anymore.

@Chak Bamu : please open up a new thread with the title US meddling in Pakistan. Let's debate in the correct thread for this

 

[Chak Bamu]

Sorry about that. I won't post here off topic anymore.

@Chak Bamu : please open up a new thread with the title US meddling in Pakistan. Let's debate in the correct thread for this

Nope... I am not interested in discussing US influence in Pakistan, it merely came up incidentally. We've both made our points. Lets leave it at that.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

After block II, III, our next step should be JF17XL for double payload based on F16XL.

 

[Informant]

After block II, III, our next step should be JF17XL for double payload based on F16XL.

Engine troubles.

 

[Basel]

It will be much better if JF-17 is evolved on the lines of F-18s look at the model they offered to India if we can develop JF-17 to that standard of tech till 2018 it will be worth it. But JF-17 can also be evolved to nearly stealth plane with out internal weapons bay, and weapons could be carried on pods, if PAF had funds. This might be cost effective way to redesign JF-17 in a near stealth design.

 

[SQ8]

It will be much better if JF-17 is evolved on the lines of F-18s look at the model they offered to India if we can develop JF-17 to that standard of tech till 2018 it will be worth it. But JF-17 can also be evolved to nearly stealth plane with out internal weapons bay, and weapons could be carried on pods, if PAF had funds. This might be cost effective way to redesign JF-17 in a near stealth design.

No it cant. There is a limit to what can be done with a design. The F/A-18 Superhornet.. and the F/A-18 Hornet have much less in common. So unless you buy a lot of these new advanced JF-17s(which will NEVER be as good as a new design for the purpose).. you will have nothing more than an expensive toy.

 

[Basel]

No it cant. There is a limit to what can be done with a design. The F/A-18 Superhornet.. and the F/A-18 Hornet have much less in common. So unless you buy a lot of these new advanced JF-17s(which will NEVER be as good as a new design for the purpose).. you will have nothing more than an expensive toy.

That is what I have posted in my post that "if PAF had funds JF-17 can be redesigned" and if that ever happend than in absence of true 5th gen plane similar to US version of F-35 or their F-22s, it will be the most advance plane PAF may ever have.

 

[SQ8]

That is what I have posted in my post that "if PAF had funds JF-17 can be redesigned" and if that ever happend than in absence of true 5th gen plane similar to US version of F-35 or their F-22s, it will be the most advance plane PAF may ever have.

Nope, the JF-17 is built around a core concept.. a core creed.. which is at the heart of everything the fighter is:

Cost-effective and self reliant. If it breaks that.. then its a failure in its main purpose.

 

[Basel]

Nope, the JF-17 is built around a core concept.. a core creed.. which is at the heart of everything the fighter is:
Cost-effective and self reliant. If it breaks that.. then its a failure in its main purpose.

Yes, but it does not mean that it could not be evolved for future needs, F-16 is best example for it, why it was built and where it stands now, also there was an MOU between China & Pakistan few years back to develop stealthy version of JF-17 for future, it was shown in news what happened to that can someone put some light on it?

 

[SQ8]

Yes, but it does not mean that it could not be evolved for future needs, F-16 is best example for it, why it was built and where it stands now, also there was an MOU between China & Pakistan few years back to develop stealthy version of JF-17 for future, it was shown in news what happened to that can someone put some light on it?

Which news was this? Would you go find it?

In the meantime , I would suggest you not speculate too much in terms of a stealthy JF-17 and hover around the articles and statements which are official..such as interviews of PAC/CATIC personnel and articles in reputed magazines.