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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

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I agree with that, GCC are not our friends, they look only for their interests.
Then who is your friend ? i think there is no free lunch in international politics everybody is for their own interest. you want to sell JF-17 for defending saudia or for your own interest like profit improving image as fighter producer/exporter etc ?
 
Would you prove a situation where the profit balance from an alliance with a GCC country was in our favour?

Sir jee do we have an alliance with GCC countries ..... or ever had that in the past ??

We have diplomatic relationship with them & thats it, if that relationship was not profitable as per expectations of some of our circles, it's because the expectations were so high without the understanding of the strategic interests of both sides, as I said earlier Starategic interests and Objectives of both sides lies in two different regions having different political dynamics, therefore they are different to each other but do not differ to each other, they neither coincide nor collide with each other.

I differ form the that part of the post where @Chak Bamu said we can not trust GCC countries, GCC countries are among those very few neighbours we do not have any differences.
 
Strategic interests and Objectives of both sides lies in two different regions having different political dynamics, therefore they are different to each other but do not differ to each other, they neither coincide nor collide with each other.

Are you absolutely sure of this statement??
 
I differ form the that part of the post where @Chak Bamu said we can not trust GCC countries, GCC countries are among those very few neighbours we do not have any differences.

It is OK to differ, and I understand. But I stand by my statement that we can not trust GCC countries.

I've lived in GCC for a few years. My assessment is based on what I consider to be their mind-set in the back-ground of their recent dirt-poor past followed by sudden riches. They do not have the weight of history behind them like Chinese do. Their notions of friendship with Pakistan are basically transactional, not strategic. They appreciate Pakistan and Pakistanis as and when it suits them. Our expectations from them are based on ties of brotherhood that we value highly and they value slightly. That is the problem.

Take the recent brouhaha about rumored Saudi purchase of JF-17. What happened? If that does not teach us something, then what will?
 
KSA probably got what they wanted from Pakistan and dropped the carrot.
Over the long-term I do not view KSA as a strategic partner. Their outlook is different and their use of influence clearly shows that - with the best example being Egypt.

This is the same issue that I have noticed with Pakistani people in general. You guys build too many expectations from something and when it doesn't go through, it becomes all or nothing. People were jumping up and down to form a strategic relationship with KSA on here just a few days ago. Today, just after a few days past the Crown Prince's visit, it has come to "we can't trust KSA long term, etc, etc".
You guys take your own ball and run with it. You'll score a touchdown at some point and the JF-17's will be sold to others. Until then, don't worry about it and fulfill your own requirements.
Get your own house in order, grow your economy, middle class and the consumer base, other countries will come. Not to give you aid or mercy, but to benefit from a country of 200 million people and a talented labor force. But you, as Pakistanis have to take that initiative.
Take a look at India.....promoting non-violent peaceful image (although not for the entire India but true in the investment hubs), a staggering population base that speaks English and is educated, today, they are almost running all major powers with their lobby and bringing in hundreds of billions of foreign investment and interests. The investors see a RETURN in that market of 1.2 billion people. Investors don't go to India because India needs the aid. They go there to reap the benefits. Same should be the case, you guys are the sixth or seventh largest populated country on the planet. I personally know how local Americans in workplaces would make derogatory comments about the Indian accent and the food smell just around 1995s. Today, after less than 2 decades of hard work and playing within the Western system, they are running almost every big enterprise that's out there. So the PEOPLE have to take that initiative here to be proud Pakistanis and work hard. Won't happen any other way.
Sorry, the post seems off topic but I really wanted to respond to this post to show the gap in the thought process from a strategic standpoint.
 
Their notions of friendship with Pakistan are basically transactional, not strategic.

I understand this point and that is basically my stance as well ......

parties to transactions, involve in the transaction when they have a certain degree of trust on each other ...... GCC (& Arabs in larger context ) and us are not strategic partners because we do not have common interest, objectives or threats
 
This is the same issue that I have noticed with Pakistani people in general. You guys build too many expectations from something and when it doesn't go through, it becomes all or nothing. People were jumping up and down to form a strategic relationship with KSA on here just a few days ago. Today, just after a few days past the Crown Prince's visit, it has come to "we can't trust KSA long term, etc, etc".
You guys take your own ball and run with it. You'll score a touchdown at some point and the JF-17's will be sold to others. Until then, don't worry about it and fulfill your own requirements.
Get your own house in order, grow your economy, middle class and the consumer base, other countries will come. Not to give you aid or mercy, but to benefit from a country of 200 million people and a talented labor force. But you, as Pakistanis have to take that initiative.
Take a look at India.....promoting non-violent peaceful image (although not for the entire India but true in the investment hubs), a staggering population base that speaks English and is educated, today, they are almost running all major powers with their lobby and bringing in hundreds of billions of foreign investment and interests. The investors see a RETURN in that market of 1.2 billion people. Investors don't go to India because India needs the aid. They go there to reap the benefits. Same should be the case, you guys are the sixth or seventh largest populated country on the planet. I personally know how local Americans in workplaces would make derogatory comments about the Indian accent and the food smell just around 1995s. Today, after less than 2 decades of hard work and playing within the Western system, they are running almost every big enterprise that's out there. So the PEOPLE have to take that initiative here to be proud Pakistanis and work hard. Won't happen any other way.
Sorry, the post seems off topic but I really wanted to respond to this post to show the gap in the thought process from a strategic standpoint.

Orangzaib, when you quote me and talk about 'you guys take your own ball and run with it.' .... etc, you are assuming that I am one of those excitable fan-boys who just ran with the rumor. I take offence at such a depiction at my expense. Would you please be decent enough to either show me to be one of those, or remove my reference from your post?

In case you have not noticed, we the Pakistani people are doing all that we can under the circumstances to improve our situation that includes all of what you have said - starting with elections in 2013 while two insurgencies aided and abetted by our neighbors and our 'friends' were running. And we had just concluded an absolutely dreadful 5 year term by PPP which incidentally came to power as a result of a process which had something to do with USA playing host to negotiations between PPP leadership and Musharraf. Instead of pressurising Musharraf to conduct free and fair elections, USA merely negotiated with Musharraf to 'allow' PPP to come to power while Musharraf continued as 'president'.

While you reflect on our thought process and express your dismay, please do also reflect upon strategic games being played around us. I trust that you will find that USA is not blameless in this predicament of ours. Yeah, every nation looks for its interest, but USA is the only one which does so and blames its victims for the outcome. Your post being a good exposition of this mind-set.
 
I understand this point and that is basically my stance as well ......

parties to transactions, involve in the transaction when they have a certain degree of trust on each other ...... GCC (& Arabs in larger context ) and us are not strategic partners because we do not have common interest, objectives or threats

Ill ask you again.. are you sure that there are NO overlapping interests for GCC states in Pakistan.. where conflict may arise?
 
Ill ask you again.. are you sure that there are NO overlapping interests for GCC states in Pakistan.. where conflict may arise?

Man....what are you guys talking about in JF-17 Thread?

Yes the GCC nations have money and they exploit it as they desire. What can we do?
 
Ill ask you again.. are you sure that there are NO overlapping interests for GCC states in Pakistan.. where conflict may arise?

Sir jee if you are hinting about the sectarian angle than it a different issue .....
 
Man....what are you guys talking about in JF-17 Thread?

Yes the GCC nations have money and they exploit it as they desire. What can we do?
Not beg. The JF-17 is in a way our expression of having to stop begging around(although ironically the whole damn thing is on loan.)
Sir jee if you are hinting about the sectarian angle than it a different issue .....
No its not. To them its linked directly to their sectarian policy. You see, the JF-17 purchase intent was NEVER going to happen. However, just like you throw a dog a bone to get them to do your bidding(change policy on Syria.. cancel pipeline).. the Saudis threw it to us.. and we wagged out tails in brotherly love..
 
Take the recent brouhaha about rumored Saudi purchase of JF-17. What happened? If that does not teach us something, then what will?

I had pointed out the drama of AK tanks pulled by Saudis few years ago but our people are gullible:)

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me...
 
Not beg. The JF-17 is in a way our expression of having to stop begging around(although ironically the whole damn thing is on loan.)

Apniii SME Advisory Pakistan mein kholniii thiii na takeiii Economy chaltiiii ! :mad:
 
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