JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[MastanKhan]

Mastan Khan Saheb,

Your post does make sense only if the numbers mentioned are correct. $40 Million is a miniscule amount. What actually was demanded can only be stated by some one who knows the facts.

Our member MuradK was the Joint Secretary of Ministry of Defence at the time and was negotiating this project. If you need the facts, you need to get it from horse's mouth rather than believing false rumores.

Several members here are aware of who MuradK is (not his actual name) and his background besides me.

Hi,

Thank you for your post---solet us assume that the bribe was a 100 million dollars---okay---between 36 aircraft 3 million apiece---.

Pshamim---lets do a historical preview----how often have nations and communities paid exorbitant prices for weapons and food to keep themselevs alive and to be at par or close to their enemy. Almost every nation that was enslaved or subjugated or---how often the pakistanis have bought a bag of sugar in the black market for twice the price of retail outlets---almost everyone---.


Forgwet about the bag of sugar---it is a luxury---let us talk about grain---wheat---anyone ever in a famine---they will tell you the price they paid---how much a thirsty in the desert sands of arabia pay for a bottle of cold water---dollar---10 dollars---100 dollars---if it is the only bottloe within 50 miles maybe a 1000 dollars---.

So---here is paf---not a single front line aircraft ready---all of them being effected by sanctions---second line of aircaft yeah---and they have the only oppurtunity to get the M2K and suddenly consciencious and hoesty comes awake---.

Pshamim---let me assure you---an HONEST MURADK was the wrong person for that job at that time. I would have rather had a shyster / a scum bag / a dou-che bag who would have pocketed some of the money but gotten the right equipment.

Why don't these pakistani kids answer my question---in the 80's and 90's how many of you had your fathers, uncles and grand father pay exorbitant prices for AK47's to protect their villages.

Solomon2---500----do you read this---please tell us---your fathers and grandfathers---what was the price did they pay for the weapons after the second world war to protect your nation---. Please tell us how often the prices were doubled and trebbled once the weapons dealers found out that it was for the jews in israel--.

Pshamim---you have lived and worked long in the corporate world in the U S---the CEO would have said---gentlemen---the bottomline is that we failed to secure the needed equipment---.

Our neighbours across the border did celebrate that day---when the interim prime minister cancelled the order----. Just barely a few years down the road---during kargil---these shaheens did not even have the strength to fly---with damaged wings, missing talons and broken beaks---they just sat back and tried to preen their feathers as best as they could---.

A warrior should be the last person to be deal making---he must just tell the salesmen what he wants and let the talkers do the bidding---these jews---after the world war---when they would send people out to buy left over weapons---it was the money menwho made the deal after the millitary men had picked and chosen what they wanted.

Muradk does not need to hear this at this stage of his life----but when you get glory when you succeed and rejoice the moment of victory---then you got to suffer the agony of defeat as well.

Pshamim---you once were a warrior yourself---who would know more about the importance of timing and proper equipment---would your enemy have accepted the excuse that the bribe was more than a 100 million so we don't have anything to fight you with---would you go easy on us----.

 

[abdulbarijan]

$35 to $40 million would be a stretch but it would be worth it if we are planning to make it an air superior fighter as described in one of AbdulBariJan videos floating on YouTube. Stealth would be even better since from 2015 it would be a norm of any decent Air-Force around the world. But my first wish full thinking purely keeping exports in mind would be to make it a viable competitor (economical but effective alternative) of Grippen and F-16 .

huh...dont listen to my videos those were from years ago..basically I was and I still am a fanboy and I have no authority...
So quit believing me already!! LOL!
anyways there were rumors of stealthy version of JF-17...
and anyone on the forum can confirm the Rumor part....
In the end what matters is PAF's requirements ... what they want .....

 

[The enlightened]

The thing missing in your analysis is that you are comparing an undergoing development plane to already operational aircrafts. There is always the first step towards something…and the place where thunder stands now is nothing less than a miracle and great luck. Takeout the history of fighter plane development and see which hurdles they faced during development and when they became operational (leave out the night part) and what conditions/mission profiles they achieved in initial 10 years of their career. Lastly compare the milestones achieved by Thunder in similar case, you’ll get your answer.




Sorry for being arrogant here, take a week break with posting and start reading. You need to read previous discussions before repeating them again. Following two threads might be useful. Goodluck!
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/160130-how-paf-should-counter-su-30-mki.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/161591-counter-mmrca-strategy-paf.html

Sorry for going off topic, but MKI thread shows nothing about how you are going to counter it. Rather it fell flat on it's face on page1 after ptldm3's post.
The OP in Rafale thread doesn't even talk about Rafale's specific capabilities such as passive detection, active jamming etc. Rather it itself goes off-topic with PAF's acquisitions.

 

[Armstrong]

so blk-1 is 15m-20m
blk-2 will be 25m-30m
blk-3 will be 35-40m

still cheap in comparison to current 4th or 4.4gn aircraft which start at 80m and above (238m for a F-22)

A noob question : How much upgradeable is the JF-17 ? Which is to say how many further 'blocks' can we come up for this bird before a limit is reached ?

 

[sancho]

JF-17 is supposed to be low cost but how low?

Block 1 was $15 Million and now... Block 2 is for $25 million. Air force officials even said that there will be a Block 3. Surely the price just keeps increasing and as it does so, JF-17 will become better than Gripen...

That's the procurement price, which has nothing to do with the development, but to get a fighter as capable as Gripen you have to invest more in JF 17 and more advanced techs and capabilities.

War and cost effectiveness doesn't go together. Similarly war toys and cost effectiveness also would not go together.

Of course, JF 17 here is a good example! For the low investment costs it offers much in return, but one has to understand that the low costs also means compromises in certain fields. A Gripen was developed with composites, RAM coatings and even radar blockers from the start, JF 17 was not, that's logically increases the costs to develop the Gripen, but also makes it more advanced.
But does it mean JF 17 has to have all the same advanced technologies to fullfil PAFs requirement? No, because it was meant to replace older low end fighters in interception or ground attack roles, with other higher end fighters above it (Sweden has no other fighter).
PAF is for sure happy with it, because it does what it was meant to be, can be produced and inducted in a good pace and they are cost-effective enough to operate them in good numbers.
Add the biggest advantage of beeing sanction prove and you have an excellent cost / benefit ratio of this project/development even if it isn't as advanced as other fighters on the market!

Think about the good things JF17 does offer to PAF, instead about the things that it doesn't offer compared to other fighters and don't expect more from a light class, low cost fighter than it actually can deliver!

Independence - yes
Improving indigenous industry - yes
Multi role capability - yes
Cost-effectivenes - yes

Beeing the best in it's class - no
Beeing a high end fighter - no
Beeing a stealth fighter - no

 

[sancho]

A noob question : How much upgradeable is the JF-17 ? Which is to say how many further 'blocks' can we come up for this bird before a limit is reached ?

The limit is dependent on many things, for example the money PAF want to invest in further developing, the limitations a light class fight has in terms of internal size, or carrying capability and not to mention that we are at the end of the 4th gen area. With 5th gen fighters in sight by the end of this, or the begining of the next decade, there is not much that you can do to upgrade a 4th gen fighter to get to similar levels. Boeing with their Silent Eagle and Hornet upgrades has shown where the limits are, but that is different for any fighter because of it's design base or certain limitations.
I would say you have to wait to see what the Block 2 really offers => to have an idea what the Block 3 might have => to have an idea what still is left to upgrade and what is technologically possibly / financially worth it.

 

[subanday]

Please let the BLOCKS come and then we can share the treasures of knowledge with each other..........

 

[Edevelop]

Any Guesses what the next squadron is called and how it will look like:

 

[Armstrong]

The limit is dependent on many things, for example the money PAF want to invest in further developing, the limitations a light class fight has in terms of internal size, or carrying capability and not to mention that we are at the end of the 4th gen area. With 5th gen fighters in sight by the end of this, or the begining of the next decade, there is not much that you can do to upgrade a 4th gen fighter to get to similar levels. Boeing with their Silent Eagle and Hornet upgrades has shown where the limits are, but that is different for any fighter because of it's design base or certain limitations.
I would say you have to wait to see what the Block 2 really offers => to have an idea what the Block 3 might have => to have an idea what still is left to upgrade and what is technologically possibly / financially worth it.

Thanks ! Do you think the PAF is going to go out and procure a $25-30M JF-17 Block 2 or is it going to be Block 1s upgraded over a period of a few years to Block 2 and later Block 3 level assuming that there aren't any significant structural changes and avionics are the main components being upgraded from one block to the other ? What I'm trying to say is that would it make sense to assert that the PAF will spread the cost of those upgrades over the entire life of the Air-Craft and instead of going for 5 Block 2s they go for 1-2 Block 2s and 5-6 Block 1s and then upgrade them over the next few years to Block 2 standard ? Or am I talking gibberish here ?

 

[Beast]

That's the procurement price, which has nothing to do with the development, but to get a fighter as capable as Gripen you have to invest more in JF 17 and more advanced techs and capabilities.




Of course, JF 17 here is a good example! For the low investment costs it offers much in return, but one has to understand that the low costs also means compromises in certain fields. A Gripen was developed with composites, RAM coatings and even radar blockers from the start, JF 17 was not, that's logically increases the costs to develop the Gripen, but also makes it more advanced.
But does it mean JF 17 has to have all the same advanced technologies to fullfil PAFs requirement? No, because it was meant to replace older low end fighters in interception or ground attack roles, with other higher end fighters above it (Sweden has no other

You seems to forget, JF-17 has DSI which proved better than conventional air intake. It may reduces RCS,but definitely reduce the overall weight and finally improves the airflow for the engine.

It is not totally a fighter it can't compete with. Of cos, if you want to shed weight further. Add more composite which will increases the overall cost.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Sorry for going off topic, but MKI thread shows nothing about how you are going to counter it. Rather it fell flat on it's face on page1 after ptldm3's post.
.

sorry it didnt fall flat at all ptldm3 was just being emotional to a large extent, OP came back with further explanations and had valid reasons as well Gambit actually supported the analysis of the OP as well. you didnt go past the first page but thats understandable.

I must repeat what Najam has said, you are questioning an aircraft which is in its early stages of development since its first block rolled out.

 

[fatman17]

A noob question : How much upgradeable is the JF-17 ? Which is to say how many further 'blocks' can we come up for this bird before a limit is reached ?

depends on the requirement. F16's went from blk5 to blk60 or even 80(UAE)?

 

[Edevelop]

JF-17 Taxing:

 

[Jango]

depends on the requirement. F16's went from blk5 to blk60 or even 80(UAE)?

Isn't the F-16 up until block 60 (UAE)???

 

[sancho]

Thanks ! Do you think the PAF is going to go out and procure a $25-30M JF-17 Block 2 or is it going to be Block 1s upgraded over a period of a few years to Block 2 and later Block 3 level assuming that there aren't any significant structural changes and avionics are the main components being upgraded from one block to the other ? What I'm trying to say is that would it make sense to assert that the PAF will spread the cost of those upgrades over the entire life of the Air-Craft and instead of going for 5 Block 2s they go for 1-2 Block 2s and 5-6 Block 1s and then upgrade them over the next few years to Block 2 standard ? Or am I talking gibberish here ?

From what we heard so far, the block 2 upgrade will be a minor one which will add certain modifications to some systems and not a whole new development with credible changes of the fighter, more might come only in Block 3. That is even a very reasonable upgrade policy, which as you pointed out will spread the costs over a period of years.

You seems to forget, JF-17 has DSI which proves even more superior than Gripen radar blocker. It reduces RCS, reduce the overall weight and finally improves the airflow for the engine.

You are talking about very different things here! DSI was developed to improve the airflow to the engines in the first place, not to reduce the RCS. It has some RCS advantages compared to normal inlets, that needs to be extensively RAM coated otherwise, but it has to the radar blockers in Gripen. They are used because it doesn't have ducted air intakes to hide the engine face from radar waves, this is not needed in JF 17 because of the use of Y-ducts. So these ducts are the comparable feature to the radar blockers of the Gripen, not DSI!
All this talk of DSI in relation to a low RCS debatable anyway, if at all it has some advantages for the frontal RCS in head on engagements. From any other angle DSI doesn't offer any advantage and the lack of RAM coatings, non radar reflecting materials, or some design issues will have a way higher influence, that's why Gripen will have a lower RCS than JF 17, because it's overall RCS was meant to be low.