@BraveHart
I guess you still not getting my point entirely, no problems I shall elaborate..
Thanks buddy for taking so much time in elaborating for me.. I really appreciate it...I would have agreed with you just for this however as you rightly said "everyone may not have the same inclinations"
As I have already mentioned the wise game is being played by ISI and the army institution and not by the people of Pak. or even Zardari (he is nothing more than a puppet)
You are absolutely right...Its always the ARMY and ISI who holds the power....Civilian Govt have little role to play when it comes to foreign policy....
Reasons:
1.After 9/11, the US govt. had virtually put the Pak. establishment on notice, 'Either Support our War or be ready to be bombed to stone-age', at this particular point they chose to join War on Terror, fully knowing the repercussions of not only fighting US but India too at some point of time.....it was their first wise move i.e to save their back..
Agreed....
2. When the Indian parliament was attacked and the forces were on border, they went to the US asking for intervention(how on earth??, US cudn't intervene in 1999 till India objectives were achieved but in three yrs they did with the same govt in place) and succeeded in avoiding a confrontation which they would have surely lost(since they won't have been able to fight for more than 6 days in 1999 they wont have been in 2002 coz 3 yrs is a very short time to change tactics) .....
Well i am not refuting your overall statement as such but just want to bring it to your notice the biz delegation that went and personally talked to Vajpayee about the FDI moving out of India due to war like scenario....Also remember that its the same BJP that did nuclear test fully knowing about US sanctions(where as PV Narsihma Rao chickened out)...Thus its a wise move by Pak Army or the repurcursions of the situation we can debate....Please note that i am not denying there was no foreign pressure...Just to give you an example after Mumbai US openly said that India has the right to defend herself(a clear approval of any surgical strikes)...still we did not.....
the second wise move i.e able to fight a proxy war without any retaliation from India and still inflicting severe wounds
This is totally refute...It is not their wise move in fact this move has caused them a lot....I mean don't get me wrong...On Paper this looks a great plan however in their lust to do so they have created a frankenstine for themselves and the results are in front of you... As far as retaliation is concerned its our problem not their success....If we are weak/soft then you cannot give credit to the other party for taking advantage out of it....but we got to know that we are Israel and they are not Palestine..
3. When the US wanted them to launch an attack in SWAT and other pakistani areas, they cried for money and weapons, result they get billions of dollars and buy helicopters, F16's, agostas subs, JF17,ships, other high tech equipment... which in normal circumstances, they won't have been able to pay for!!
Well we can debate on it as well as even without SWAT operation they were on for JF17's and much more...In fact this is one thing they never compromised upon...Thus i said about contrasting difference between their economy and defence...However as said that US authorities have started counter measures against it...In fact OBAM openly said during his election campaign that PAK has used this money for building war capabilities against India...thereby giving birth to Kerry-Luger bill....More counter measures like that are on its way....All i want to say is that One can lie but cannot hold it for long.....
they even get some undisclosed money(again in billions of dollars) for providing intelligence wrt some terrorists...wise move number three...They gain parity wrt India in terms of military equipment..which ostensibly were provided to fight Taliban...
I don't think they have got in parity with India in military equipment in fact the imparity is increasing every day....Even for the sake of argument they did then aid was definitely not the only reason....You got to understand that they always drive for parity with India militarily which is the most important reason for their failure's in other fronts(especially economy)
4. By allowing a weak Pakistan govt. in office and controlling the strings the army/ISI decides all major decisions...their activities aren't in open and they work similar to an agent..etc..etc...fourth wise move
Very true....
5. When the Mumbai carnage took place and India was pretty angry ,they pretty astutely let many NATO trucks burn, in a way exerting pressure on US, 'Either you control India or we won't control your supplies and your men die'. Result: many top diplomats fly to India, India relents, says wants justice for only Mumbai since its a burning issue and forgets Delhi,Mumbai,Jaipur,banglore ,etc...also is forgotten that all terrorists camps against India need to be dismantled...Eventually after a year they say Mumbai wasn't a big deal, it normal.....could US have accepted it had it been their case?? In a way, a wise move...You slaughter people and still get a pat on the back plus more money(b$$)
I disagree and if what you say is true than it brings in a question on GOI...Anyways as said before we got a clear signal that India has the right to protect herself...However their will always be External Pressure on nuclear power states weather or not trucks are burnt...Also you are ignoring the diplomatic success that we achieved after Mumbai...
6. The country continues to nurture all jehadi elements it had previously, as mentioned in your link and mine too....but never gets isolated in International forum and praises keep on coming....
Praises??? How about the criticism about Do More every other day by every other leader of the world??? Hillary Clinton comments right in Pakistan??? Obama warnings....Suspicion about their involvement in support fot Taliban...Drone attacks with in Pakistan even after being condemned by PAK army chief(not even talking about their Parliament)...and much more....
7. When there is pressure on them to show results they move in, kill some hundreds of talibans when actually the press reports that they are present in thousands(7-10K), also the number of kills is quite exaggerated(a ratio of ~1:20), ..simple comparison to Indian operation(~1:5) in Kashmir will suffice....the US stays happy..but wait a minute, where are the thousands??
You are right...However US is not happy and that's why drones are doing their job....and now the situation is they have no choice but go for the kill(TTP is bombing every corner of Pakistan)
8. By claiming that TTP is supported by Indian, US, etc..agencies they make the public/low rank cadre in army believe that actually they aren't fighting Muslims but infidels ...so everyone keeps quiet and gets diverted versions of RAW-CIA-MOSSAD nexus and blames them.
How come that is their success??? They are cheating Pakistani's and no one else....These claims have no credibility in international forum....So if this is their success i feel sad(For Pak nationals) however have no problems with it...
9. In the process they keep on increasing their nuclear weapons stock each year with no one, even India keeping their mouth shut!!!
Well no one can stop them from increasing their nuclear weapons anyways..Due to their imparity in conventional war with India this is their only chance...They are already a nuclear state...However i must say Proliferation or no Proliferation this is their success...
10. NATO hasn't been able to achieve its objectives and still wants to get out of the mess at the earliest...so once they move out...who controls the area???(may be afghan govt. for certain time but how long can they??)...as soon as favorable conditions are seen, the wise men move in!!!!! And in the name of ally they get even more b$$'s
Well there you have gone a little overboard....Taliban coming back to AF is going to be a disaster for Obama administration...So rest assured that aint gonna happen...Also there is a reason we have opened those many consulates there and roads connecting AF with Iran...
The blasts that you mentioned are the only deviation to the whole point I am trying to make, may be these are also
well coordinated according to their needs, may be not,but its anybody's guess....
A blast almost everyday pointed agains't ISI..Army and now civilians being considered as deviation??? You must be kidding...It is like saying GOI did mumbai to malign Pakistan...
The one's that suffer are the people of Pakistan, India and Afghanistan but the institution which is responsible for all this **** remains intact and continues its agenda albeit with more weapons and money at hand to keep the world at guns point...
Well as said if you are talking about few individuals than i am in agreement...However as far as Pakistan as a country is concerned their interests are getting hurt...
And regarding the Kashmir issue and economy..
India wasn't ready to talk to pakistan about kashmir in the early 2000's but after 9/11 its ready, if you remember Mushraff always saying "the biggest gain from Kargil was Kashmir has been added in bilateral engagements", fact is, he gets only the dates wrong the rest is same.... Also by asking US/ China to mediate it puts India in spot of bother since the day India relents for a third party, its almost game over for us.
Brave Heart now you are going a little overboard....Pakistan always wanted to internationalize kashmir...we wanted it to be a bilateral tie...Last time i heard its still is and will remain like that until it is resolved for good....As far as Musharraf is concerned he has to say something to salvage some pride and save his *** from Kargil blunder...
About the economy, well you won't care about it if you got money coming from other sources that too in multiples...in anyways they never had a booming economy so not a lot to care for...
Are you serious??? I guess we wasted time in arguing...because i have related their wise games as disaster for Pakistan and thus NOT-SO-WISE...If you relating it to Pak army institution then yes you are right...Even with limited means they have got enough muscle to give us a bloody nose...(Now i have typed so much so will go ahead and post my reply...)
Hope you get my point, even if you don't, its OK, coz everyone may not have the same inclinations..
I did...
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