India Eyes Spike, Javelin Buys

[Abingdonboy]

NEW DELHI — India is considering the purchase of both the Israeli Spike anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) and the US Javelin ATGM. Indian Defence Ministry sources said the Javelin purchase could include co-development of a new generation of the missile. Purchase would be on a government-to-government basis, added the source.

Both the Spike and Javelin will be discussed during the forthcoming meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), India’s top procurement body.

The Israeli-built Spike returned to the Indian Army’s acquisition agenda and the subject was discussed during the DAC’s Nov. 11 meeting.

The purchase of Spike was put on hold in April because it was a single-vendor procurement from Israeli company Rafael. However, the Army, which has a shortage of more than 20,000 advanced ATGMs, is in a hurry to acquire them from overseas markets.

The Army currently depends on Russian Konkurs M and French Milan ATGMs, but these have a limited range.

The Army now proposes to buy third-generation Spike systems, including 321 missile launchers, 8,356 missiles and 15 training simulators and associated accessories, along with technology transfer. India can equip its Russian-made BMP-2 infantry combat vehicles with the Spike system.

US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter, during his visit to New Delhi in September, formally proposed the joint development of the Javelin.

India Eyes Spike, Javelin Buys | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[The_Sidewinder]

NEW DELHI — India is considering the purchase of both the Israeli Spike anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) and the US Javelin ATGM. Indian Defence Ministry sources said the Javelin purchase could include co-development of a new generation of the missile. Purchase would be on a government-to-government basis, added the source.

Both the Spike and Javelin will be discussed during the forthcoming meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), India’s top procurement body.

The Israeli-built Spike returned to the Indian Army’s acquisition agenda and the subject was discussed during the DAC’s Nov. 11 meeting.

The purchase of Spike was put on hold in April because it was a single-vendor procurement from Israeli company Rafael. However, the Army, which has a shortage of more than 20,000 advanced ATGMs, is in a hurry to acquire them from overseas markets.

The Army currently depends on Russian Konkurs M and French Milan ATGMs, but these have a limited range.

The Army now proposes to buy third-generation Spike systems, including 321 missile launchers, 8,356 missiles and 15 training simulators and associated accessories, along with technology transfer. India can equip its Russian-made BMP-2 infantry combat vehicles with the Spike system.

US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter, during his visit to New Delhi in September, formally proposed the joint development of the Javelin.

India Eyes Spike, Javelin Buys | Defense News | defensenews.com

great development. IA is in dire need of those ATGMs.

 

[indoPunjabi]

Buy javelins, drop spike!

 

[jaiind]

However, the Army, which has a shortage of more than 20,000 advanced ATGMs, is in a hurry to acquire them from overseas markets.

what army needs 20,000 ATGM ?? I think our hostile tanks count won't exceed more than 5k. Army is willing to fire more than 2 ATGM to every hostile tank

 

[Sergi]

Spike !!! Drop Javelin.
If I am not wrong Spike has similar range but lower reload time. So should have higher fire rate.
@Abingdonboy any adv of Javelin over spike ???

what army needs 20,000 ATGM ?? I think our hostile tanks count won't exceed more than 5k. Army is willing to fire more than 2 ATGM to every hostile tank

5K ATGM will be enough if you know precisely form where enemy armour is going attack. Do you ???

These launchers and missiles will be divided into battle groups so actually that huge number too will be insufficient. Plus you have to consider the amount of rounds going to be used for training and practice. This is primary estimate. Going to increase larer if we go with it.

 

[Abingdonboy]

what army needs 20,000 ATGM ?? I think our hostile tanks count won't exceed more than 5k. Army is willing to fire more than 2 ATGM to every hostile tank

That's not actually how the IA comes up with its projections ie by looking at how many tanks they could face but rather looking at having at least 1 ATGM launcher per platoon/company. The fact is the IA wants to equip its entire infantry with new ATGMs so 20,000 is actually only an intial order, many times this number will be built under licence in India. This makes sense becasue otherwise if you only had ATGMs 1-1 or even 2-1 (even assuming you can achieve almost perfect hit rates) for every foreign tank then you would only have a tiny proportion of the IA equipped and trained with these ATGMs and in a case of a war this is an unacceptable scenario.


It's like saying, you're only going to face X number of foreign fighters so you only need X number of BVR missiles. This isn't how militaries work. It is about distribution of resources and capabilities.

 

[sancho]

This is one of the deals where MoD must step in and has to see the bigger picture, instead of leaving the forces with the decisions for every small procurement!

Requirement:

IA - infantry based ATGM (SPIKE ER / Javelin)
IA - vehicle based ATGM (SPIKE ER or even NLOS / ?)
IA & IAF - helicopter based ATGM (SPIKE ER or even NLOS / PARS 3)

The simple fact that IA could operate the same ATGM for ground and air based operations, should make clear that it would ease operations and reduce costs. When you then add that the Israelis are offering more useful ToT unlike the US, or that the PARS 3 is less capable, more costly and unproven, what the hell is left for such long evaluations and negotiations???

What makes it even more stupid, is the fact that we are developing an own ATGM, that is aimed for a similar variety as SPIKE, so using the same launchers as the base, or benefiting from ToT should be just logical, but everything is so damn complicated in India!
Giving the forces the chance to decide about every simple procurement, instead of combining requirements just opens the door for bribery, delays, cancellations.

 

[Abingdonboy]

This is one of the deals where MoD must step in and has to see the bigger picture, instead of leaving the forces with the decisions for every small procurement!

Requirement:

IA - infantry based ATGM (SPIKE ER / Javelin)
IA - vehicle based ATGM (SPIKE ER or even NLOS / ?)
IA & IAF - helicopter based ATGM (SPIKE ER or even NLOS / PARS 3)

The simple fact that IA could operate the same ATGM for ground and air based operations, should make clear that it would ease operations and reduce costs. When you then add that the Israelis are offering more useful ToT unlike the US, or that the PARS 3 is less capable, more costly and unproven, what the hell is left for such long evaluations and negotiations???

What makes it even more stupid, is the fact that we are developing an own ATGM, that is aimed for a similar variety as SPIKE, so using the same launchers as the base, or benefiting from ToT should be just logical, but everything is so damn complicated in India!
Giving the forces the chance to decide about every simple procurement, instead of combining requirements just opens the door for bribery, delays, cancellations.

But surely this Javelin co-devlopment offer is something to seriously consider?

 

[jha]

javelin is coming for sutr...... spike willl have to wait...

 

[sancho]

But surely this Javelin co-devlopment offer is something to seriously consider?

Of course it is something to consider, but not if the US don't share critical techs that can benefit Nag upgrades or future Indian ATGM developments, at a reasonable cost.

 

[Echo_419]

But surely this Javelin co-devlopment offer is something to seriously consider?

US is not reliable
Maybe they are offering some Lowtech in the deal & develop all high tech stuff on their own
Using our money
I will go any day withinIsraelis than the Americans

 

[Mitro]

Indian Army should take a example of how Hezbollah use old russian
9M133 Kornet
and destroyed so many israhell Markava lastest tank .
indian enemy don't have any tank that we cannot destroy from atgm which we have already .

we should focus on development or joint venture and should not buy directly from shell and also should not develop by DRDO [waste of time and money].

 

[energym]

Indian Army should take a example of how Hezbollah use old russian
9M133 Kornet
and destroyed so many israhell Markava lastest tank .
indian enemy don't have any tank that we cannot destroy from atgm which we have already .

we should focus on development or joint venture and should not buy directly from shell and also should not develop by DRDO [waste of time and money].

Who is We here ? You are not Indian.

 

[500]

Indian Army should take a example of how Hezbollah use old russian
9M133 Kornet
and destroyed so many israhell Markava lastest tank .
indian enemy don't have any tank that we cannot destroy from atgm which we have already .

we should focus on development or joint venture and should not buy directly from shell and also should not develop by DRDO [waste of time and money].

Why u scream? First of all Kornet is not old. its about same age as Spike and Javelin. Secondly They destroyed 2 Israeli Merkava tanks in 1 month of fighting (one 30 years old Mk2 model and one 20 years old Mk3 model)

 

[janon]

Indian Army should take a example of how Hezbollah use old russian
9M133 Kornet
and destroyed so many israhell Markava lastest tank .
indian enemy don't have any tank that we cannot destroy from atgm which we have already .

we should focus on development or joint venture and should not buy directly from shell and also should not develop by DRDO [waste of time and money].

A grand total of four Israeli tanks were completely destroyed by Hezbolah's ATGMs.