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DNA Results From Rakhigarhi Are Now Being Reported

Mamluk

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It looks like Outlook India is the first out of the gates to start reporting on the results from Rakhigarhi in northwest India, We Are All Harrapans. This is a “mature phase” Harrapan site that dates to about 2250 BC or so. Media reports have always been garbled on this topic, so anything that is coming not out of a paper needs to be treated cautiously. But I’ve heard some of the same things from independent sources from a while back, so I believe that this reporting is broadly on the mark.

Basically, the individual(s) they got DNA out of did not have any Eurasian steppe ancestry. This seems to confirm again that Eurasian steppe ancestry, which is found in fractions as high as ~30% in twice-born varna in Northern India (e.g., Rajputs, Tiwari Brahmins), arrived after 2000 BC. That is, after the peak period of the Indus Valley Civilization.

Again, one has to be wary of anything from the media because I’ve heard so many confusing things, including claims of garbled quotes, but here’s one of the authors of the forthcoming paper being quoted:

"We did some analysis to figure out the exact date of the admixture. We have prepared a model in which all these stats fit together very tightly and that model suggests the Central Asian admixture happened about 1500-1000 BC…. Significant mixing happened around 1000 BC, also at 800 BC and 600 BC."
This is totally in line with the results from the March preprintdiscussed in the piece. That is, the Swat Valley samples show admixture and genetic change after 1200 BC. And the semi-historical understanding that we have of India during the period between 1000 BC and the rise of Mauryas is that it was a society in flux. But the only way the dating was changed by the Rakhigarhi results is if the genome is high enough quality that it allowed them to narrow down the parameters on some of the estimates of admixture.

One thing to keep in mind is that it is unlikely that the “Harappan people” were one single people genetically. There was probably a lot of variation in admixture with the indigenous South Asian substrate. And, I believe that the inflated steppe & AASI (“Ancient Ancestral South Indian”) ancestry you see in some North Indian Brahmin groups compared to Sindhis (who are more “Iranian”) is evidence that the Indo-Aryan intrusion resulted in an expansion of people with West Eurasian ancestry much deeper into South Asia than was the case with the Harappans.

And of the Harappans, some of the Indian scholars have asserted that their descendants are still present in the region. I think this is right, insofar as some of the jati groups, often scheduled caste, in the northwestern region of South Asia share a lot more affinity with populations to the south and east.

Related: Michael Witzel has commentary from a more linguistic perspective. If the “Para-Munda” hypothesis is right, I think what Witzel is seeing is the substrate language on which Munda was overlain, because Munda people are clearly intrusive from Southeast Asia in the period between 2000 and 1000 BC.

Addendum: If a relatively late intrusion (after 1500 BC) of Indo-Aryans to South Asia is supported by the evidence, it would be interesting in light of the high likelihood that Indo-Aryans were present in the region of upper Mesopotamia before 1500 BC. I believe that these “Indo”-Aryans actually probably never had any contact with South Asia, but descended from the horizon of cultures of which Sintashta and Andronovo were constituents. The Indo-Aryans who arrived in South Asia were probably from a different branch, and likely had interactions with other peoples in what is today eastern Iran and Afghanistan.

Source: GNXP
 
“The sample we are getting is very local,” says Rai, who did the basic work. “We aren’t getting any Central Asian gene flow in Rakhigarhi. Comparing Rakhigarhi with data from modern Indian populations, we have concluded that they have more of an affinity with the Ancestral South Indian tribal population compared to the north Indian population.”

“The Rakhigarhi samples have a significant amount of ‘Iranian farmer’ ancestry,” says Rai. “In India’s present-day population, only the south Indians have Iranian farmer ancestry. You won’t find Iranian farmer DNA in the north Indian population.”


Iranian farmer? Yes, this nomenclature owes to studies of early Neolithic farming in the Zagros mountains of Iran—one of the sites in the Fertile Crescent where humanity is said to have first farmed and domesticated animals. At least that’s what the scholarly consensus seems to be. An eastward expansion is then cited as having brought farming and animal domestication to the Indian subcontinent. Along with the people who brought them—a ‘demic’ flow, as they call it—and then proceeded to interbreed with local hunter-gatherer populations to produce the ‘Ancestral South Indian’ type. Of which the Harappans are an instance.

https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/we-are-all-harappans/300463
 
It looks like Outlook India is the first out of the gates to start reporting on the results from Rakhigarhi in northwest India, We Are All Harrapans. This is a “mature phase” Harrapan site that dates to about 2250 BC or so. Media reports have always been garbled on this topic, so anything that is coming not out of a paper needs to be treated cautiously. But I’ve heard some of the same things from independent sources from a while back, so I believe that this reporting is broadly on the mark.

Basically, the individual(s) they got DNA out of did not have any Eurasian steppe ancestry. This seems to confirm again that Eurasian steppe ancestry, which is found in fractions as high as ~30% in twice-born varna in Northern India (e.g., Rajputs, Tiwari Brahmins), arrived after 2000 BC. That is, after the peak period of the Indus Valley Civilization.

Again, one has to be wary of anything from the media because I’ve heard so many confusing things, including claims of garbled quotes, but here’s one of the authors of the forthcoming paper being quoted:

"We did some analysis to figure out the exact date of the admixture. We have prepared a model in which all these stats fit together very tightly and that model suggests the Central Asian admixture happened about 1500-1000 BC…. Significant mixing happened around 1000 BC, also at 800 BC and 600 BC."
This is totally in line with the results from the March preprintdiscussed in the piece. That is, the Swat Valley samples show admixture and genetic change after 1200 BC. And the semi-historical understanding that we have of India during the period between 1000 BC and the rise of Mauryas is that it was a society in flux. But the only way the dating was changed by the Rakhigarhi results is if the genome is high enough quality that it allowed them to narrow down the parameters on some of the estimates of admixture.

One thing to keep in mind is that it is unlikely that the “Harappan people” were one single people genetically. There was probably a lot of variation in admixture with the indigenous South Asian substrate. And, I believe that the inflated steppe & AASI (“Ancient Ancestral South Indian”) ancestry you see in some North Indian Brahmin groups compared to Sindhis (who are more “Iranian”) is evidence that the Indo-Aryan intrusion resulted in an expansion of people with West Eurasian ancestry much deeper into South Asia than was the case with the Harappans.

And of the Harappans, some of the Indian scholars have asserted that their descendants are still present in the region. I think this is right, insofar as some of the jati groups, often scheduled caste, in the northwestern region of South Asia share a lot more affinity with populations to the south and east.

Related: Michael Witzel has commentary from a more linguistic perspective. If the “Para-Munda” hypothesis is right, I think what Witzel is seeing is the substrate language on which Munda was overlain, because Munda people are clearly intrusive from Southeast Asia in the period between 2000 and 1000 BC.

Addendum: If a relatively late intrusion (after 1500 BC) of Indo-Aryans to South Asia is supported by the evidence, it would be interesting in light of the high likelihood that Indo-Aryans were present in the region of upper Mesopotamia before 1500 BC. I believe that these “Indo”-Aryans actually probably never had any contact with South Asia, but descended from the horizon of cultures of which Sintashta and Andronovo were constituents. The Indo-Aryans who arrived in South Asia were probably from a different branch, and likely had interactions with other peoples in what is today eastern Iran and Afghanistan.

Source: GNXP

Tiwari is just a surname not a community, Brahmins have clear Tribal division and micro communities to identify lairs from Genuine Brahmins. same for majority of Rajputs and Vaishyas, they also carry similar (y DNA75%B-40%Raj-baniya) so we naturally Feel closer to them compared to any other Ethnicity of the world. even today majority of my Closest Friends are either Rajputs, Brahmins or Baniyas.

and Brahmins indeed Migrated to South, while majority of them are too much mixed or liers (only 30% of SI Brahmins have y DNA of R1a) its not hard to find pure Brahmins there. my Former Professor in Bachelors was a karnataka Brahmin with pure Nord Indic Facial features and Pale skin.
 
At least that’s what the scholarly consensus seems to be
This dismissive sentence clearly sets the tone for the article. The author is clearly butt hurt about something, but there are some statements that are not very plausible. For example:

“In India’s present-day population, only the south Indians have Iranian farmer ancestry. You won’t find Iranian farmer DNA in the north Indian population.”

This needs fact checking. It completely contradicts the earlier studies. And then the author is back to peddling the age old disproven claim of Dravidian ancestry of Indus Valley, even though Iranian farmer DNA presence in South Indians does not prove anything like this. It just proves that Iranian farmers made it to South India. Nothing about when or how. Most likely it was well before IVC era. It might even indicate that Dravidian language could have originated in Iran or Balochistan, which also explains Brahui language despite the people being genetically indistinguishable from other Baloch.

As far as modern populations of North India are concerned, they could be very mixed (with South Indians, Assam, Tibet) and are not indicative of the so called ANI. Which is the exact reason why the American study used Swati tribes in North Pak as an IVC reference point.


Thirdly, using the presence of Iranian farmer DNA to claim we are all Harappans without establishing the exact timeline of the Iranian expansion seems illogical. Surely it means we are all Iranian.
 
These dark skinned Dasyu monkeys are never gonna learn to not steal culture and history.

Don’t you aboriginal Shudras have your own country and culture to be proud of?
Street shitting, raping, eating rats, etc, is very honorable in soup power India and you should be very proud of it. Why do you have to claim the culture and history of us mlecchas?
 
These dark skinned Dasyu monkeys are never gonna learn to not steal culture and history.

Don’t you aboriginal Shudras have your own country and culture to be proud of?
Street shitting, raping, eating rats, etc, is very honorable in soup power India and you should be very proud of it. Why do you have to claim the culture and history of us mlecchas?

Hahahahaha you surely need mental rehabilitation.

-------------------------------

Oh and people are back are back with their flawed facts. Reality>>> Indus valley civilisation is not considered as origin of vedic culture. Secondly, it is called as Indus valley civilisation because FIRST relics were found there by a bengali archeologist before the britishers. Thirdly, idiots are making random points based on some british propaganda.Adding to that, of course different regions different people and different characteristics but culture is something else ;) and that's where Pakistanis are confused. The conflict is between, culture , tradition, and religion in Pakistan. :tdown:
 
and that's where Pakistanis are confused. The conflict is between, culture , tradition, and religion in Pakistan. :tdown:

Yet all the desperation stems from Indian sources who are obsessed with promoting OIT, disproving any steppe invasions, painting everything in subcontinent as indigenous and pretending to be successors of the Indus region while ignoring their real homelands in the Ganges.

Do you see any Pakistani obsessing over Ganga? Why do you think that is?
 
Yet all the desperation stems from Indian sources who are obsessed with promoting OIT, disproving any steppe invasions, painting everything in subcontinent as indigenous and pretending to be successors of the Indus region while ignoring their real homelands in the Ganges.

Do you see any Pakistani obsessing over Ganga? Why do you think that is?


I see people like you desperately claiming the Ganges region has no civilization, despite the fact that the oldest and most advanced cities of the subcontinent are in the Ganges region, most of the greatest works of literature in the subcontinent came from that region, the most famous South Asian mathematicians were from North India such as Brahmagupta and Aryabhata, and ancient North Indian architecture is almost unparalleled. That sounds pretty obsessed to me. And the oldest pre-Harrappan settlement is Bhiranna in Haryanna.

Before you call me a Gangadeshi, I am not from North India. My mothers family is from Sindh, and my father's family are Tamil Brahmins. However, I have studied subcontinental history enough to appreciate the contributions the Ganges region of India made to Human history. I also appreciate the Indus Valley. However, I still do not know why Pakistanis are so adverse to the research being done on Indus sites in India such as Rakhigarhi.

BTW, I am sorry for my harsh tone in my earlier post which you deleted. I will be more careful from now on
 
I see people like you desperately claiming the Ganges region has no civilization, despite the fact that the oldest and most advanced cities of the subcontinent are in the Ganges region, most of the greatest works of literature in the subcontinent came from that region, the most famous South Asian mathematicians were from North India such as Brahmagupta and Aryabhata, and ancient North Indian architecture is almost unparalleled. That sounds pretty obsessed to me

I am sure Ganges has had plenty of civilisation. What I said was that most Indians seemingly have no interest in this most central region of their own country, while they are obsessed with claiming the Indus region. I have never denied that the Indus region extends into Indian Punjab, but the idea that "we are all Harappan" shows that you cannot respect your neighbors identity. It's just something that has to be "claimed" for your countrymen, which is sad to say the least.

Before you call me a Gangadeshi, I am not from North India. My mothers family is from Sindh, and my father's family are Tamil Brahmins. However, I have studied subcontinental history enough to appreciate the contributions the Ganges region of India made to Human history. I also appreciate the Indus Valley. However, I still do not know why Pakistanis are so adverse to the research being done on Indus sites in India such as Rakhigarhi.

I have yet to comment on "research" on Rakhigarhi. The above is not research, its pure conjecture aimed at either proving OIT, or Dravidian origins of everything or both. Theories like this usually disrespect and dismiss our heritage in every way conceivable so understandably Pakistanis are adverse to this idiocy.
 
I am sure Ganges has had plenty of civilisation. What I said was that most Indians seemingly have no interest in this most central region of their own country, while they are obsessed with claiming the Indus region. I have never denied that the Indus region extends into Indian Punjab, but the idea that "we are all Harappan" shows that you cannot respect your neighbors identity. It's just something that has to be "claimed" for your countrymen, which is sad to say the least.



I have yet to comment on "research" on Rakhigarhi. The above is not research, its pure conjecture aimed at either proving OIT, or Dravidian origins of everything or both. Theories like this usually disrespect and dismiss our heritage in every way conceivable so understandably Pakistanis are adverse to this idiocy.

Thank you for your civil comment. I understand that Mohenjo Daro and Harrappa are fully Pakistan's heritage. However, India does have a rightful claim to the IVC that extends beyond Punjab. There are hundreds of sites of varying size and importance throughout Gujarat, Rajasthan, and Haryana. Gujarat in particular has Lothal, the first port city of the IVC, which makes it one of the most important sites. I posted a thread history of Gujaratis for more information on this. My Mother actually comes from a family of Gujaratis in Sindh, similar to Jinnah.

Anyway, as for OIT and Dravidian origins of IVC, I am honestly not sure. I do not see anything wrong with this study, it simply shows that the modern day population of Haryana has changed little since the IVC, which means there was not a big "invasion." I do believe there was a small migration that influenced the population though.
 
Pakistanis are just angry that compared to India they have almost zero contributions in the fields of mathematics, science, medicine, astronomy, architecture, and literature,

The first recorded use of the number zero comes from the Bakhshali manuscript, which was found in Pakistan:

https://www.livemint.com/Science/MS...k-dot-in-Bakhshali-manuscript-is-first-z.html

Abdus Salam won a Nobel Prize in Physics, and he was from Pakistan:

https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1979/salam-bio.html

A Pakistani guy is currently developing a cure for cancer:

https://timesofislamabad.com/03-Jul...mad-usman-makes-cancer-treatment-breakthrough

We sent rockets into space before you did:

https://www.dawn.com/news/724785

We have superb pieces of architecture such as (but not limited to) the following:

Front_Elevation%2C_Alamgiri_Gate%2C_Lahore_Fort.jpg


wazir-khan-mosque-1.jpg


badshahi-mosque.jpg


tomb-of-bibi-jawindi-K4E3GX.jpg


As for literature, your beloved Sanskrit had its rules of grammar determined by someone from Pakistan:

http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Panini.html

We also have countless famous poets such as Faiz Ahmed Faiz and Allama Iqbal:

https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poet/faiz-ahmed-faiz

http://www.iqbal.com.pk/iqbal/life-of-iqbal

You were saying?
 
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THe number zero was invented by Brahmagupta, who lived most of his life in Rajasthan. The Decimal system was invented by Arybhata, and without it, the Arabs and Europeans would not have been able to create advanced systems of mathematics. Aryabhata was also the first astronomer to calculate the length of a day and a year and determine the timings of eclipses. He was also one of the first astronomers to discover that the Earth rotates on an axis. THe South Indian mathematician Madhava also discovered principles of calculus centuries before Newton did. As for literature, there is no evidence Panini was born in Pakistan, and even then, he was by no means the first and only Sanskrit grammarian. The greatest works of Sanskrit literature are the Mahabharat and the Ramayana, both longer than the greek oddyssy and Iliad, and they were weitten in northern India. I don't know why you mentioned the rest of the stuff you did becuases we are clearly talking about ancient history, but have you sent satelites to MArs and the Moon? We were among the first nations to discover water on the moon. As for architecture, simply look at the threads created on the subject, we are unparalleled. The fact you included all those unrelated examples of recent history to counter our countless achievements during ancient times shows how defensive you are
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmagupta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryabhata
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhava_of_Sangamagrama
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ancient-indian-architecture.325674/
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sout...al-heritage-and-its-indian-connection.565422/
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...the-best-yet-criminally-unappreciated.554988/
 
The first recorded use of the number zero comes from the Bakhshali manuscript, which was found in Pakistan:

Manuscript is kind of a book can have several copies. It was only found there. Obviously because of Taxila in the nearby, which was destroyed by invaders whom you follow. Secondly the concept of shunyata (nullity) is older than this script.
 
One thing to keep in mind is that it is unlikely that the “Harappan people” were one single people genetically. There was probably a lot of variation in admixture with the indigenous South Asian substrate.

This could be interpreted to mean different things to different people. If Harappan people were not confined to one particular race then we are back to square one. Who are these people???
This research poses more questions than it answers to its dna makeup. If the Eurasian steppe dna is not present then it is possible that these people were local population. It does lend credibility to Pakistani claim that IVC are mostly local inhabitants.

@Indus Pakistan
@Indus Priest King
@Nilgiri
 

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