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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Well, that's why a national effort for the indigenous Turbo fan engine is a must. Good thing our GTRE guys are confident that, they have solved the puzzle to build the turbo fan engine, and they are still waiting for the Supersonic test bed MIG-29 of IAF. Atleast for the organisation like GTRE, national test beds like Subsonic and supersonic test bed and a dedicated airport is needed to test the turbofan, and various LRU's.



1. MK-2 is nothing but the Naval version of LCA Tejas MK-1.
2. Higher thrust from F414 is needed for the carrier operation, because LCA won't be able to airborne with substantial load from the ski jump deck of the carrier.
3. Lca Tejas, whether MK-1 or MK-2 air intake was designed around the Kaveri Specs aka hiegher airintake pressure but it was never redesigned rather patched by the ADA by opening few intake ports to reduce the pressure, and in case of MK-2 increasing the Airinlet opening few cm. When we are talking about the airintake nozzle, that includes the whole nozzle including the Y duct, and not the external opening what you see in the picture.
4. Kaveri was delinked from the LCA project only but the development continues. Kaveri is only the proof of technology, the real engine will now be build on the technology build or developed with the Kaveri, and should be ready (reliable enough) for the mass production around 2024-25.
5. Problem with the Naval LCA is that being a single engine, the LCA didn't have the keel below, which strengthen the stucture, and needed to strengthen to take the load, pressure of the controlled crash landing during the carrier operation.
6. M88 (Snerma) and Dassault makes sense because, India have a secret project called AURA, the must needed part of the 5th Generation Air Warfare, and French have there own Nueron. No OEM responded for the RFI issued by the ADA for the development of the stealth USAV project, and it could be worked out with the french, in the deal of the Rafale.

I am totally fine with US engines..

My only concern was our indigenous fighter shouldn't be at the risk of sanctions .

Purpose of indigenous fighter would be lost, if it gets grounded because of sanctions.
 
AMCA is the twinkle in the eye, MII component will finalized keeping in mind the transfers to AMCA. Screwdriver jobs will not be acceptable - DA can ill afford to part with crown jewels while Boing and LM have plenty on the plate to share hence my partiality to them.

On your step up thing, I repeat : Dassault will concentrate on Rafale MII.
It's best for both that they do!

On your good cop bad cop, yes, of course it is obvious but beyond scheme
are personalities. I could explain in details but just know that I have been
part of politics and a board and can spot talent reasonably. The guy is not
a top player in any case.


On that quote : I still believe India should not do everything with France for
reasons of autonomy / independence, reliability all covered by diff. sourcing.
BUT I disagree with your reasoning : Dassault led the nEUROn exactly to
show its project mastery applied to international programs. But all partners
in that endeavour were selected because they could tackle their part alone.
Swedes and Italians apart, CASA, RUAG and HAI each played on its forte
to sub-produce an essential segment. There was little if no risk on tech.
New design, safe industrialization, crafty management made it work.
How is that not what you claim? Well, I'll tell you ... there is no RUAG in India!

So I repeat, Dassault will work on future projects with development to boot
because it is what they do and are in fact good at. Education as in teaching ...
not so much!
As for screwdriver jobs, it's an image, past its use by now IMHoO. If you
don't see the value in JVs which are brought to Western standards of work
with a culture of achievement, I can't usefully explain further. Cultural adap-
tation will run both ways or it won't succeed. But getting to home standards
by those JVs will raise a whole lot of workers that have the right mindset
to screw any driver you want!

The way collaboration happens depends on age of parties, industrial-wise.

6 y-o kid : Daddy, help me with my paper plane! A. -Dad is busy, darling!
but Dad will holler at the 16 y-o : _Hey, come here and give me a hand.

And it's the same dad and kid in both cases too. It's a matter of stages of life.

Another Dad may be great with young ones less, with young adults!
Face reality and get the best out of the Dad you have?
We don't choose our family.

Anyway, gotta go riding:-), have a great day man, Tay.

P.S. At Stephen, the price was wrong in that article but thnx for tag nonetheless.
 
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two words...price discovery. The deal with egyptians and qatar cannot be the benchmark and that is what dassault i is insisting on.
Absolutely.
Terms of trainings, supports, spares, number of air bases to accomodate are not same.

LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
Subs and Carrier I think.

Rafale M was requested to be completely made in Merignac which we don't want.. So as a token gesture and keeping all folks pleased a very small number has to be ordered.. The idea mooted was using the follow on 18s for this purpose.. As of now IAF is on board this, but if a threat situation changes and need to expedite the Rafale M induction arise, the numbers may increase in Merignac.. But that scope is very less..

The flyaway last batch RAM and other absorbent material painting plus very small work will be in Indian line.. It's basically the post 90-95% finished product things which are requested to be done in order to also check the Indian line capabilities and testing..


Modification for Indian missiles will be done in India itself for the last batch.. RBE2 AESA not full but partially shared and will be available for any type of Missile integration as needed by India followed by due test and certification.

Media crying is expected.. Today itself a Saab article cane out after all US articles on teens.. Anyways not all contours can be divulged owing to multiple facets best kept away from public even if they make hue n cry.

LnT work is going ahead primarily in sub program.. Parallel construction of the 6 SSN and NG SSBN are being framed.. Aridhaman will float out by this year second half and it's follow on will be out in another few years.post which the bigger heavier boats comes in along with the SSNs.

The IAC2 will remain a test case to see how much USA walks the talk.. But DCNS is getting a serious look in that..

Prez Hollande may come or may not.. Probably will come for MII announcement.. Drian and Trappier would be here surely...interestingly a Doval hush hush meeting was scheduled around this or next week.. Something off the book for discrete discussion..
If you can make air force Rafale, you can make Marine one. Just few small things are differents. But if you are in a hurry.... may be Merignac line can help.
 
Subs and Carrier I think.
subs - SSN and NG SSBN

Next Gen bcz present Arihant class of 3 subs are baby boomers..The next one will sport 12-16 VLS silos with the real deal of 12m length 2m width, 1 tonne warhead with 3 MIRV (200kt 270kg each) + possibly 2-3 Dummies in a flower shape.
Thats also the one which will sport the Brahmos NG LACM/AShM fired from torpedo tubes.

If you can make air force Rafale, you can make Marine one. Just few small things are differents. But if you are in a hurry.... may be Merignac line can help.

Thats the idea quicker induction.


+++

tagging @Abingdonboy too

Vstol says Rafale M may be there in IAC1. If it happens then surely 42-45 will be ordered from merignac as IAC1 will come by Dec 06,2019..

so effectively in Merignac - 36+18+ 27 (45-18) = 81 or may be fully 36+18+45 = 99

thus there should not be any surprise here..

If Merignac gets 100 jets, then multiply it with 3+ minimum and Indian line will get 300+ jets....

simply
IAC1 45 (30 jets on deck)
IAC1 follow on - 2 nos - (36 jets on deck) - 100
IAC2 - 1 numbers - 54 jets
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rafale M market - 45+100+54 - 199
Merignac line for Rafale M - 45+18 = 63
Indian Line for Rafale M= 136 Jets

IAF need 190 jets
------------------------------------------

Indian line potential - 326 jets

I am not considering IAC2 second ship but if such a ship is constructed parallely add another 54 jets either in Merignac or in India Or it may sport AMCA also if its not a parallel construction.

The important factor is the cost part when such a deal works out over time and how much localisation actually brings in benefits to MIC, skill development and cost reduction..
 
subs - SSN and NG SSBN

Next Gen bcz present Arihant class of 3 subs are baby boomers..The next one will sport 12-16 VLS silos with the real deal of 12m length 2m width, 1 tonne warhead with 3 MIRV (200kt 270kg each) + possibly 2-3 Dummies in a flower shape.
Thats also the one which will sport the Brahmos NG LACM/AShM fired from torpedo tubes.



Thats the idea quicker induction.


+++

tagging @Abingdonboy too

Vstol says Rafale M may be there in IAC1. If it happens then surely 42-45 will be ordered from merignac as IAC1 will come by Dec 06,2019..

so effectively in Merignac - 36+18+ 27 (45-18) = 81 or may be fully 36+18+45 = 99

thus there should not be any surprise here..

If Merignac gets 100 jets, then multiply it with 3+ minimum and Indian line will get 300+ jets....

simply
IAC1 45 (30 jets on deck)
IAC1 follow on - 2 nos - (36 jets on deck) - 100
IAC2 - 1 numbers - 54 jets
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rafale M market - 45+100+54 - 199
Merignac line for Rafale M - 45+18 = 63
Indian Line for Rafale M= 136 Jets

IAF need 190 jets
------------------------------------------

Indian line potential - 326 jets

I am not considering IAC2 second ship but if such a ship is constructed parallely add another 54 jets either in Merignac or in India Or it may sport AMCA also if its not a parallel construction.

The important factor is the cost part when such a deal works out over time and how much localisation actually brings in benefits to MIC, skill development and cost reduction..

Actually, there may be a little correction required here. S2 (INS Arihant), it appears, is different from S3 & S4, as per a certain authoritative report , also corroborated by prevailing circumstantial evidence. S3 and S4 are expected to have 8 cell VLS arrangement i.e. double the S2 strike package.

nuclea_032715115323.jpg


Further, the flight deck+ hanger deck area (and shape) of INS Vikrant isn't really conducive to 30 Rafales. The canards mean that Rafale cannot be organized into certain high density arrangements as compared to the F-18 or even the Mig-29K. There would probably be a 20-30% drop in aircraft carrying capacity of the carrier if Mig-29K is replaced by Rafale. Of course it is another question as to whether 24 Rafales are better than 36 Migs.
 
subs - SSN and NG SSBN

Next Gen bcz present Arihant class of 3 subs are baby boomers..The next one will sport 12-16 VLS silos with the real deal of 12m length 2m width, 1 tonne warhead with 3 MIRV (200kt 270kg each) + possibly 2-3 Dummies in a flower shape.
Thats also the one which will sport the Brahmos NG LACM/AShM fired from torpedo tubes.



Thats the idea quicker induction.


+++

tagging @Abingdonboy too

Vstol says Rafale M may be there in IAC1. If it happens then surely 42-45 will be ordered from merignac as IAC1 will come by Dec 06,2019..

so effectively in Merignac - 36+18+ 27 (45-18) = 81 or may be fully 36+18+45 = 99

thus there should not be any surprise here..

If Merignac gets 100 jets, then multiply it with 3+ minimum and Indian line will get 300+ jets....

simply
IAC1 45 (30 jets on deck)
IAC1 follow on - 2 nos - (36 jets on deck) - 100
IAC2 - 1 numbers - 54 jets
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rafale M market - 45+100+54 - 199
Merignac line for Rafale M - 45+18 = 63
Indian Line for Rafale M= 136 Jets

IAF need 190 jets
------------------------------------------

Indian line potential - 326 jets

I am not considering IAC2 second ship but if such a ship is constructed parallely add another 54 jets either in Merignac or in India Or it may sport AMCA also if its not a parallel construction.

The important factor is the cost part when such a deal works out over time and how much localisation actually brings in benefits to MIC, skill development and cost reduction..
Rafale-M for IAC-1 makes sense with what we can see (in that the IN has not shown any interest in a single more MiG-29K and 45 are insufficent for both the IAC-1 and Viky) but also presents its own set of chellenges namely delviery. When will the Rafale-Ms first be delviered to the IN? The IAC-1 will going into sea trails in mid/late 2018 and validating air ops is a huge part of the IAC-1 completing sea trails, of course the MiG-29Ks can be (and likely will) be used for the IAC-1's air wing but whenever the Rafale-M comes in it will take a while to intergrate a new fighter with the carrier.

Furthermore, when the IN inducts a new fighter they first form an ITFU and this lasts 2-3 years before the jets will be formally inducted into the IN and made fully operational.

It looks like its going to be some time before the Rafale-M is operational on an Indian carrier as I don't see deliveries happening for 3+ years and another 2-3 years in ITFU on top of that.
 
Rafale deal is finalised.. reports NDTV ..

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafa...ndia-and-france-for-7-8-billion-euros-1395958

The first Rafale fighter jets will take at least 18 months to arrive in India

NEW DELHI:
HIGHLIGHTS
  1. PM Modi during visit to Paris last year confirmed India's order
  2. The Rafales are made by manufacturer Dassault Aviation
  3. France initially sought 11 billion Euros for the sale of 36 fighters

India's much-negotiated deal with France for 36 fighter jets is final - it will buy the French-made Rafale planes for 7.8 billion Euros, said sources to NDTV. The agreement is to be signed within three weeks and it will take at least 18 months for India to get the first lot of aircraft.

France initially sought 11 billion Euros for the sale of 36 fighters complete with weapon systems.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a visit to Paris last year confirmed India's order of 36 read-to-fly jets. Before that, the Defence Ministry had sanctioned the purchase of 120 planes, but the deal was scaled down dramatically after both sides were unable for years to agree on the unit price and the assembling of the planes in India.

The Rafales are made by manufacturer Dassault Aviation. During PM Modi's visit, the countries agreed that the deal would be handled between their governments.


The Air Force has stressed it needs to start replacing its ageing jet fleet from 2017 to effectively check the capabilities of Pakistan and China.

rafale_650x400_71452772823.jpg

The Rafale fighter is manufactured by Dassault Aviation

As the negotiations stretched - and a deal was not reached during French President Francois Hollande's visit to India in January, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said he is "a tough negotiator" and needed time to ensure a good bargain. The Air Force has repeatedly been asking for its ageing warplane fleet to be urgently modernised.
Sources say that as part of the government's push to develop and support military manufacturing at home, in exchange for selling India off-the-shelf Rafales, French companies including Dassault will have to invest three billion dollars in India to help firms here with stealth-capability and radar technologies.

dassault-rafale-650-best-shot_650x400_71452768120.jpg
 
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Rafale Jet Deal Finalised By India And France For 7.8 Billion Euros

All India | Edited by Abhinav Bhatt | Updated: April 15, 2016 20:01 IST

Rafale Jet Deal Finalised By India And France For 7.8 Billion Euros

The first Rafale fighter jets will take at least 18 months to arrive in India
New Delhi:
Highlights

PM Modi during visit to Paris last year confirmed India's order
The Rafales are made by manufacturer Dassault Aviation
France initially sought 11 billion Euros for the sale of 36 fighters

India's much-negotiated deal with France for 36 fighter jets is final - it will buy the French-made Rafale planes for 7.8 billion Euros or nearly Rs. 59,000 crores.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a visit to Paris last year confirmed India's order of 36 read-to-fly jets; the initial talks had been for 120 planes, but the deal was scaled down dramatically after both sides were not able to agree on the unit price and the assembling of the planes in India.

The Rafales are made by manufacturer Dassault Aviation. During PM Modi's visit, the countries agreed that the deal would be handled between their governments.

France initially sought 11 billion Euros for the sale of 36 fighters complete with weapon systems. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, explaining the delays, had said he is "a tough negotiator" and needed time to ensure a good bargain. The Air Force has repeatedly been asking for its ageing warplane fleet to be urgently modernized.

The papers confirming the nearly 8 billion Euro purchase are to be signed in the next three weeks, said sources, adding that the first Rafales will take at least 18 months to arrive here.
 
Great News that every one is waiting to hear...Modi delivered. Don't forget we will have a Make in India component too...:dance3::dance3:
 

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