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Arjun the worst tank ever

I explicitly had wheeled options in mind.


  1. Why would the Indian Army NOT use ATGMs to destroy the Type-15 light tank?
  2. Mobility is precisely why I suggested that armoured cars/fire support vehicles/tank destroyers. Neither tracked vehicles nor the heavy armour of MBTs is necessary in what you have pointed out is an infantry support role.


You can't have your cake and eat it too. If we are discussing the possibility that India is looking for a light tank and wishes to procure such a system, my remarks relate to that. The advantages of wheeled vehicles is precisely why I suggested that these vehicles mentioned are preferable to light tanks.

If, as you point out, we are talking only about what the Indian Army has at present, the T90, then this discussion is unnecessary.

Combining the two cases totally muddles the issue.

Wheeled option is better but then again its lesser armored and carries slightly smaller cannon than MBT. Recovery is easy too. Some of these can carry troops. So over all, a suitable option.

Destroying Type-15 is not the issue here, deployment of Indian Armor is what we are talking here. Type-15 has been deployed by PLA already and whether IA deploys T-90 or not, which means Type-15 will be supporting infantry in any case. Although howitzers can give enormous fire cover for advancing infantry, yet the presence of tanks could suggest that PLA infantry could be mobile to keep up with tanks.

In case of mobility, CJ-3 or M-151 with RR gun or TOW still seems an adequate option 8-) They have proved themselves in every terrain but they are outdated now. Maybe something in the class of Piranha 8x8 or Stryker or Ratel series. The protection from small arms fire is there, mobility should be of lesser worry and can mount a decent cannon. But armored vehicles will not be the only candidates in the battlefield - expect others at some stage like gunships, lots of tube artillery, MLRS, ground strike aircraft which would require air superiority etc. Maybe transport helis for air borne Ops.
 
Yes, it is. No doubt about that. Those hundreds and thousands of assembled under license tanks don't exist. Nor do the hundreds of aircraft, those kept flying for periods approximately five times more than their rated life.

There is no one involved in defence production in India who denies that there are problems, and there are people here with real life experience to tell the tale, but the kind of fanboy insight demonstrated in some of these posts is laughable. Expertise in these gleaned from a superficial look through YouTube videos isn't a substitute, especially looking through propaganda videos.

In another thread, the unwary reader stumbles into a similar urgent desire on the part of the latest generation of defence experts to instruct the world at large about strategic matters and military history.

Not the best way to maintain the credibility of the contributions; these posts are laughable

About as laughable as the new iconic status of a single aircraft kill on 27th February. Only a complete lack of anything else to show can create such an infantile obsession.

First, it was a guerrilla war launched to acquire territory that succeeded only in parts that were the home territory of the guerrillas.

Then it was a war of aggression, aggression through clandestine groups, and an open attack with armour and donated artillery on border armed police and infantry formations, admitted by every single account from their own side, that failed, and is now projected as a wonderful victory by turning the failure on its head and reporting it as a failure of the attacked country to crush the attackers.

That is the story of a bank robber celebrating his safe get-away, with only the loss of his tools, weapons and the loot, and exulting in the ineptitude of the policeman who had him in his grip but failed to hold on. We are informed that the ineptitude of the Indian military is demonstrated by its inability to go beyond neutralisation and defence and achieve the total demolition of the aggressors.

Then we have another clandestine campaign that, again, for the third time, failed, and that is now celebrated as the triumph of the campaigners in a very odd achievement; an achievement in deflecting operational failure and at converting it into the failure of their political leadership to negotiate that defeat into victory. Here is the bank robber blaming his failure and mere detention, without tools, weapons or swag, into the failure of the lawyer who came to the station to bail him out; by some mysterious alchemy, the bank loot would have wafted home, complete with weapons and tools lost in the raid, if only the lawyer had known his job.

And so we come to the Great Pumpkin and the 27th of February.

The real idiots stand revealed in their stupidity. The real idiots are those who know better but indulge the followers of these mythical stories by engaging with them. The real idiots - we - need to do some introspection. Why do they - we - match the obsession of the idiots who celebrate a single aircraft loss with their own obsession with bringing logic and reality into the YouTube parlour not very cleverly disguised as a defence thread? It isn't going to happen. We need to apologise to ourselves. Two wrongs don't make a right. Two obsessions don't add up to a rational discussion.





It is simple..


give people their freedom and dont hide behind terrorism and all that crap.

face the facts you started this problem and you will have to end it.
 
It is simple..


give people their freedom and dont hide behind terrorism and all that crap.

face the facts you started this problem and you will have to end it.

Do you enjoy reading my posts?
 
I find this number extremely difficult to believe. It is probably not tractable in the sense we use for the T-90 number you give...but may be a theoretical "no slip" max on the test range ramp. Looking at Type 15, the CoG also seems fairly low to aid this.

In a passing convo, an ex abrams tanker told me about all kind of real world limitations to what the abrams stated specs are on paper from the test range its qualified on after production.

These are all presented to the actual crews for training and then deployment...prioritised even by likeliest matrix intersection of conditions...it has taken decades of field experience to acquire.
I too find that very hard to believe! I have no idea what test standards Chinese follow for certification, if we knew that would give detailed account of test procedure.
Most of Military that produce/ oversee military vehicle production , certification and export have made their own test standards.
Russia now use standards that are very close to ECE type approval standards with little bit of tinkering, since they export their vehicles and equipment far and wide, the customer need to have grasp of what is he buying and who has certified the seller's claims.
US now has a separate command :US test and evaluation command that makes and regulates Military equipment and vehicle test standard . Most of them are very close copy of Commercial SAE standards.
Since China is also trying hard to grab a share of defence equipment market, it is likely that they are either already following some global standards or are in process of doing so.

Anyway, max gradability for military vehicles is a complex test and these days is performed at a specialised variable ramp dynamometer and not on actual ground. As soil, rock, water content of soil, temperature etc can all vary from country to country, a vehicle tested on either cemented ramp or ground may not perform as advertised while bought by some client country.
So in recent years, most manufacturers have turned to SAE certified Dynamometers which present same condition for testing throughout the world.
In military vehicles(Russian) not only the vehicle needs to go up and down the advertised max angle, but it needs to sustain 3.2km/2miles per hour speed while sustained climb for 300seconds. During which, Engine temperature must not reach within 10% of max engine operation temp as per engine manufacturer.
Secondly no liquid should spill over during this test, like coolant, fuel, brake fluids,fluid reservoir etc. Oil pressure,fuel pressure and other critical systems must operate within green zone. And many such things are included in test protocol.
During this and such other tests all auxiliary power drawing units like mission/ firing computers, climate control, auto loaders, battery charging etc are allowed to be switched off.
Also manufacture of vehicle needs to provide max sustainable speed at different ramp angles not just flat ground and max gradability.
Like 25kmph at 5*climb , 18kmph at10* climb etc.
Secondly Roll over angle ( angle at which the vehicle will topple front over) is also provided.
Another Major test is during descent, at what angle vehicle will slip downwards uncontrollably even after application of brakes. This angle is usually lesser than what a vehicle can climb in actual world and is taken quite seriously as it causes sure shot accident when it happens.

So, all in all, 60% claimed by Chinese may actually be 50-55* if they aren't yet following widely adopted standards, but even to claim 60% by any standard (doing just50) need to have pretty good torque low down the revs and very good gearbox. Here automatic gearboxes(Cvt) steal the show as they have ability to keep the engine working at max torque rpm irrespective of speed/ climb grade or gear.
 
your attempt at a clever post doesn't mask the basic core problem.
fix the problem the issues which you laboriously typed go away..

I take it you don't.

Good.

That was a post intended, not to be clever, but to explain politely that I was putting you on my ignore list.
 
I too find that very hard to believe! I have no idea what test standards Chinese follow for certification, if we knew that would give detailed account of test procedure.
Most of Military that produce/ oversee military vehicle production , certification and export have made their own test standards.
Russia now use standards that are very close to ECE type approval standards with little bit of tinkering, since they export their vehicles and equipment far and wide, the customer need to have grasp of what is he buying and who has certified the seller's claims.
US now has a separate command :US test and evaluation command that makes and regulates Military equipment and vehicle test standard . Most of them are very close copy of Commercial SAE standards.
Since China is also trying hard to grab a share of defence equipment market, it is likely that they are either already following some global standards or are in process of doing so.

Anyway, max gradability for military vehicles is a complex test and these days is performed at a specialised variable ramp dynamometer and not on actual ground. As soil, rock, water content of soil, temperature etc can all vary from country to country, a vehicle tested on either cemented ramp or ground may not perform as advertised while bought by some client country.
So in recent years, most manufacturers have turned to SAE certified Dynamometers which present same condition for testing throughout the world.
In military vehicles(Russian) not only the vehicle needs to go up and down the advertised max angle, but it needs to sustain 3.2km/2miles per hour speed while sustained climb for 300seconds. During which, Engine temperature must not reach within 10% of max engine operation temp as per engine manufacturer.
Secondly no liquid should spill over during this test, like coolant, fuel, brake fluids,fluid reservoir etc. Oil pressure,fuel pressure and other critical systems must operate within green zone. And many such things are included in test protocol.
During this and such other tests all auxiliary power drawing units like mission/ firing computers, climate control, auto loaders, battery charging etc are allowed to be switched off.
Also manufacture of vehicle needs to provide max sustainable speed at different ramp angles not just flat ground and max gradability.
Like 25kmph at 5*climb , 18kmph at10* climb etc.
Secondly Roll over angle ( angle at which the vehicle will topple front over) is also provided.
Another Major test is during descent, at what angle vehicle will slip downwards uncontrollably even after application of brakes. This angle is usually lesser than what a vehicle can climb in actual world and is taken quite seriously as it causes sure shot accident when it happens.

So, all in all, 60% claimed by Chinese may actually be 50-55* if they aren't yet following widely adopted standards, but even to claim 60% by any standard (doing just50) need to have pretty good torque low down the revs and very good gearbox. Here automatic gearboxes(Cvt) steal the show as they have ability to keep the engine working at max torque rpm irrespective of speed/ climb grade or gear.


@jbgt90
I was right.
 
What nonsense thread started by a person who completely ignored

The arjun tanks at 60 tonnes is designed along use German UK designs and built to.fight on desert wide open battle grounds.

The Chinese front is high altitude mountain terrain

Why have China not deployed t99 tanks.

What a silly thread

Childish
 
Anyway, max gradability for military vehicles is a complex test and these days is performed at a specialised variable ramp dynamometer and not on actual ground. As soil, rock, water content of soil, temperature etc can all vary from country to country, a vehicle tested on either cemented ramp or ground may not perform as advertised while bought by some client country.

Yeah I base what I said from what I've seen of the range videos (perfect conditions, and paved like you describe and really a first qualifier test in a long line of them) for (thinking back) the 3-4 major NATO MBTs.

Just to make sure the basic frontier static stability is as it should be....along with other basics, some dynamic too.

But then again I haven't followed that stuff with the eastern bloc ones...or for light tanks. So my impression could definitely be off for those (different tanks in mind etc).

Well met btw, to bring up the standards prevalence w.r.t export volume that Russia enjoys....something China would have seen and adapted to develop credibility.

Thanks for this detailed reply overall.

I leave you with a throwback vid people might enjoy:

 

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