A Breakdown in Transporting Supplies to Afghanistan

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Multiple threads merged.

 

[notorious_eagle]

It is a little easy for you to say this with a Union Jack proudly displayed on your profile

Did you...for even the briefest second...stop and consider the loss of livelyhood for the numerous hundreds, maybe even thousands of Pakistanis who derieve their livelyhood

Right from the time the supplies are offloaded at Gwadar/Karachi till the time it enters [whatever passes off as] the Afghanistan border, literally many thousands of Pakistanis are employeed

These Pakistani citizens who otherwise have no other source of income, because industries are shutting down, even those that do function are doing so understrength, exports are quite a matter of humor here, inflation -24% [before anybody asks me how rising inflation is bad - Google] and devalued Pakistani currency meaning absolutely negative "unmentionables"

Try telling these thouands of people it is a good thing that NATO+US will no longer going to go through their land and give them any more money for working for them.

Also easy for the notorious_eagle from canada - none of you are earning your livelyhoods from the passing of these convoys

Calm down friend, stop being all emotional . You are right many people are employed in this industry but also keep in mind that hundreds of people have lost there lives in this ridicilous war. Pakistan has lost more money than it has gained in this war on terror, its about time we move away from this and start securing our own country. Yes industries are shutting down in Pakistan right now but thats because of the global credit crunch and lack of energy. But the energy problem is being resolved and i reckon that by mid 2009 Pakistan's economy will start recovering. These constant suicide attacks have killed foriegn investment, people living in NWFP are scared to go outside. These terrorists are constantly kidnapping Chinese workers in Pakistan, this is a huge headache for us. China and Arab countries were investing billions of dollars in Pakistan, but since the last 2 years this sudden increase in voilence has stopped those investments. Enough is Enough, yes many people are going to loose there jobs but people are getting killed For God Sake. Pakistan gains more if it smartly moves away from this war on terror, this war will never end and Pakistan will loose the most if this war still keeps on going.

 

[Solomon2]

Pakistan has lost more money than it has gained in this war on terror, its about time we move away from this and start securing our own country.

Do you realize what that means? Moving away from supporting terrorism means enhancing the rule of law. Enhancing the rule of law implies that there will be fewer opportunities for official corruption. Reversing the process means opportunities for increased corruption. Just what kind of Pakistan do you want?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Do you realize what that means? Moving away from supporting terrorism means enhancing the rule of law. Enhancing the rule of law implies that there will be fewer opportunities for official corruption. Reversing the process means opportunities for increased corruption. Just what kind of Pakistan do you want?

Moved away from supporting terrorism? Never did that, unless you want to include US and Indian support for proxy wars in other nations in that category as well.

Enhancing the rule of law? We are working on it, and if I remember correctly, you and other Indians were in fact arguing against the 'rule of law' by pushing for Pakistani versions of Gitmo and Extraordinary Renditions, to satisfy Indian demands.

An undermining of the rule of law has also been committed by the US, both in terms of the demands paced upon Pakistan, and its own actions in violating the sovereignty of Pakistan through air strikes and raids.

A Pakistan that stands up for the rule of law, both internally and externally is what we want.

 

[Solomon2]

Is it truly possible to seek a rule-of-law Pakistan (rather than rule-BY-law Pakistan) when you guys are saddled with a bureaucracy and politicians who thrive on corruption?

"An undermining of the rule of law has also been committed by the US, both in terms of the demands paced upon Pakistan, and its own actions in violating the sovereignty of Pakistan"

What exactly do you mean by "the demands placed on Pakistan? And is the U.S. "violating the sovereignty of Pakistan" when it fires missiles to kill Taliban and Al-Qaeda forces, or is the U.S. enhancing the sovereignty of Pakistan by doing so? If the former, it implies an alliance between the Pakistani government and terrorists. If the latter, why isn't U.S. intervention openly supported by Pakistanis?

(Sorry, I'm not that familiar with the Indian stuff.)

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Is it truly possible to seek a rule-of-law Pakistan (rather than rule-BY-law Pakistan) when you guys are saddled with a bureaucracy and politicians who thrive on corruption?

Corruption exists in the US as well, and will likely continue to exist, such is human nature. The objective should be to progressively build up institutions to where corruption is minimized. Pakistan is not alone in having to contend with corruption - most developing countries are riddled with it, including our larger neighbor to the East.

What exactly do you mean by "the demands placed on Pakistan? And is the U.S. "violating the sovereignty of Pakistan" when it fires missiles to kill Taliban and Al-Qaeda forces, or is the U.S. enhancing the sovereignty of Pakistan by doing so? If the former, it implies an alliance between the Pakistani government and terrorists. If the latter, why isn't U.S. intervention openly supported by Pakistanis?

(Sorry, I'm not that familiar with the Indian stuff.)

Pakistani cooperation on terrorism during Musharraf's rule was often done by circumventing the constitution - suspects were arrested and extradited to US custody (or wherever) without access to the justice system. People were detained indefinitely without anyone knowing what had happened to them.

The US is violating Pakistan's sovereignty by firing missiles into its territory, and it is doing so for very little returns. How many AQ members and leaders have been killed by all of these strikes this year?

Perhaps close to a hundred, and all replaceable. The cost to Pakistan has been much greater through increased attacks in Pakistan. The intangible cost of rising anti-US sentiment, that then undermines Pakistani operations in the Tribal belt through public and political pressure, and therefore undermines the entire WoT, has been enormous.

I disagree that the former implies a Pakistani alliance with 'terrorists'. The US has been sluggish to act against the drug lords and weapons trade in Afghanistan (which is at record levels currently) that supplies the insurgents and all manner of criminals in Afghanistan and Pakistan with money, equipment and weapons.

Does US inaction against that trade imply that the US is in an alliance with the drug lords and weapons smugglers, and therefore by extension is in an alliance with the insurgents those criminal supply? I would hope not - US inaction is due to various factors that you can guess, but it nonetheless places an enormous cost on both Pakistan and NATO.

Pakistan has her own reasons for not acting against the Taliban factions US air strikes are directed against. These factions denied the TTP the space to expand and consolidate their hold over all of FATA, instead of the few agencies they control now, and they did this with active PA and local Tribal support and drove out TTP militias from their areas of control.

Pakistan's reluctance to target them stems from not wanting to allow the TTP the chance to create a larger alliance with these groups, and expanding the attacks against Pakistan and the area of operations we have to focus on. Pakistan's inaction too has a cost, primarily for NATO. And like the US, Pakistan is trying to minimize an expansion of the threats it faces, while working to eradicate the existing larger threat of the TTP.

 

[Solomon2]

cooperation on terrorism during Musharraf's rule was often done by circumventing the constitution

Another good reason to celebrate the return to civilian rule

The intangible cost of rising anti-US sentiment, that then undermines Pakistani operations

What operations, exactly? The main factor undermining anti-terror operations in Pakistan and Afghanistan is the fear the locals have for the Taliban and the drug lords. What do you think is more likely to fight that fear: discord between the U.S. and Pakistan, or mutual cooperation? Yet that is a minor matter compared to Pakistan's own lack of staying power. While the U.S. is increasing its operations, Pakistan is "redeploying" - that is, withdrawing - to the Indian front. The message to the locals is: Pakistan and the U.S. may come and go, but the crooks and jihadis remain, so we have to find a way to live with them.

If the Pakistani government celebrated its cooperation with the U.S. rather than pushed it under the rug, wouldn't that be an improvement? Yes, that means abandoning the fudginess of collaboration among all political parties, but real democracy doesn't always involve that, but instead means taking a stand and trusting that your base - ultimately, your power to control your mob in the street - will support you against others - including the risk of a coup. Now that Musharraf is not in power and while the Zardari government is still young is the best time to exercise this strength. You guys gotta get out of the habit of thinking Pakistan is supported by an oligarchy; this is the step Corazon Aquino of the Philippines managed to take, and it made all the difference.

Does US inaction against that trade imply that the US is in an alliance with the drug lords and weapons smugglers, and therefore by extension is in an alliance with the insurgents those criminal supply? I would hope not

Uh, sorry, but that is exactly what we do. 9-11 changed everything, and the U.S. now isn't quite so queasy about its agents getting their hands dirty.

Pakistan has her own reasons for not acting against the Taliban factions US air strikes are directed against. These factions denied -

Thank you for the explanation - it's the first I heard of it in such detail It seems that greater cooperation between Pakistan and the U.S. is necessary so the "wires don't get crossed", so to speak.

 

[slugger]

'thousands of people' associated with trucking NATO supplies are not going to tip over the Pakistani economy.

lol..who said anything about the "Economy". This post of mine was solely wrt to the individual livelihood of the people employed

 

[batmannow]

Pak Hits Militants Along Supply Route

December 30, 2008
Associated Press

PESHAWAR, Pakistan - Pakistan closed the main route used to ferry supplies to U.S. and allied troops in Afghanistan on Tuesday after launching a fresh offensive against militants in the area.

While the length of the closure isn't clear, the U.S. already has started looking for supply line alternatives as it prepares to almost double its number of soldiers in Afghanistan next year.

A U.S. military spokesman in Afghanistan welcomed the operation against the extremists, despite the suspension of the supply route.

"We are glad that they're helping clean out what they call miscreants in that area that have been attacking the supply line," said Col. Greg Julian. "Temporary closure (of the supply line) is not a problem. It's best that they conduct this operation and clear out these trouble spots."

The road through the Khyber Pass in the northwest of Pakistan has come under increasing attacks by militants seeking to squeeze Western forces fighting a resurgent Taliban in Afghanistan in recent months.

U.S. and NATO soldiers in landlocked Afghanistan rely on the winding, mountainous route for delivery of up to 75 percent of their fuel, food and other logistical goods, which arrive in Pakistan via the port city of Karachi.

American commanders insist the attacks are not disrupting their mission in Afghanistan, but are exploring new routes. They also say they have enough supplies to last many weeks in the case the routes are blocked.

But the U.S. next year will send up to 30,000 new forces to the country to reinforce the 32,000 American soldiers already there, requiring even more support and supplies.

Last month, The Associated Press reported that NATO was close to reaching deals with Central Asian countries north of Afghanistan that would allow the alliance to truck in "non-lethal" supplies from there.

It has already reached a similar agreement with Russia that remains in force despite tensions triggered by the Georgia conflict earlier this year, NATO officials said.

The road has been temporarily closed to traffic at least twice this year for security reasons, each time for no longer than several days.

Tariq Hayat Khan, top administration official in the Khyber area, said security forces were battling the militants using helicopter gunships and heavy artillery.

"This operation will continue until the goal is achieved, which is nothing less then the elimination of troublemakers," Khan told The Associated Press. He did not say how long the road would be closed for.

He said he had no information on any casualties.

Gunmen have staged a series of raids on truck depots near the Pakistani city of Peshawar in recent weeks, killing several guards and burning hundreds of vehicles, including dozens of U.S.-bought Humvees destined for the Afghan army.

During the summer, militants attacked and torched dozens of U.S. supply trucks on Afghanistan's main highway.

A smaller number of supplies arrive in Pakistan by a second land crossing at Chaman in the southwest. That road was open Tuesday, a witness said.

NATO says it is investigating other possible supply routes to Afghanistan - such as through central Asian states to its north. Guns and ammunition are not shipped through Pakistan.

On a normal day, some 300 trucks carrying military supplies travel up the pass. Media reports have said that truck companies are becoming increasingly unwilling to transport the goods because of the danger.

 

[pkpatriotic]

Major breakthrough in Khyber Agency operation claimed
Friday, January 02, 2009
Pak-Afghan highway likely to reopen within two days

PESHAWAR: Claiming a major breakthrough on the third day of the ongoing operation against the militants and outlaws in the Khyber Agency, the political authorities on Thursday hinted at reopening the Pak-Afghan Highway by Saturday.

Authorities said 80 per cent of the targets were achieved as several notorious criminals were either arrested or surrendered to the administration after finding no way out. Some 13 houses, used for anti-social activities, were also demolished. The encroachments along the Jamrud Bazaar and the adjoining areas were removed.

Sources said 15 more wanted criminals were arrested on the day, bringing the tally of those arrested during the last three days of the operation to 43. A total of 33 structures, including houses and Hujras, were demolished in the operation.

The Nato supplies snatched from time-to-time were recovered during the operation. The looted items were recovered from the house of Adam Jee, Wazir Dhand area, prompting the forces to demolish the house after retrieving the snatched goods.

A huge cache of arms was recovered from an Afghan refugee, Ubaidullah Khogyani. Security forces searched the house of banned Tehrik-e-Taliban Amir for Jamrud, Hijrat, and found stolen goods. The house was also demolished.

The demolished structures also included the house of a well-known tribal elder Malik Attaullah Kokikhel and that of Haji Momin Khan, the brother of Nasir Khan, the incumbent senator from the Khyber Agency.

Briefing media persons, Political Agent of the Khyber Agency Tariq Hayat said that on the third day of the operation, militants’ hideouts and criminal dens in Ghundi, Shahkas and Wazir Dhand area were targeted with artillery shells before the troops moved in.

The official said that known kidnappers and looters were arrested during the operation and a large quantity of arms and ammunition and looted goods recovered from different places. Tariq reiterated his earlier stance that the operation named ‘Daraghlum’ (Here I come) was not aimed at any single entity or group but against a host of groups that had made the entire region insecure.

“Lawlessness in Jamrud Tehsil has direct implication on the law and order situation in Peshawar, which experienced one of its worst periods during the last quarter of the year 2008,” the administrative head of the agency said and added 37 people were kidnapped and 16 vehicles lifted from Jamrud Tehsil during the last three months.

The official said that during the same period, a total of 100 people were abducted from Peshawar and all the kidnappings had direct links to the tribal territory, where the operation was in progress now. Besides, the area was also used to launch rocket attacks on Peshawar and hundreds of vehicles, including that of the Nato, were targeted.

The official said that some residents of the area, especially Jamrud subdivision, had provided shelter to the miscreants, who had shifted from Bajaur, Mohmand, Orakzai and Waziristan tribal agencies. The political agent said that growing lawlessness in the tribal agency had ended the role of tribal elders, who found themselves unable to cope with the heavily-armed anti-social elements. “This operation will go a long way in restoring the real tribal system in these areas,” Tariq said.

 

[pkpatriotic]

Pakistani Forces Making ‘Good Progress’ in Khyber Pass Offensive
By Gerry J. Gilmore
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Jan. 2, 2009 – The Pakistani military is making good progress against militants who have threatened a major supply route running from Pakistan into Afghanistan, U.S. officials said here today.

U.S. military officials in Afghanistan are “cautiously optimistic” regarding recent news reports that cite Pakistani forces’ success in driving militants away from the Khyber Pass region, U.S. Forces Afghanistan spokesman Army Col. Jerry O’Hara said in a telephone interview with American Forces Press Service today.

Pakistani forces launched an offensive Dec. 30 to target militants who, in recent weeks, have attacked some supply convoys that transit the Khyber Pass.

That supply route runs hundreds of miles from the Pakistani port city of Karachi to Peshawar in northwestern Pakistan and then through the Khyber Pass into Afghanistan. The Khyber Pass route provides about 75 percent of the U.S. supplies to troops in Afghanistan.

The Pakistani military actions directed against militants who operate in the Khyber Pass area are providing “security of the Peshawar [supply] terminals and our supply lines,” O’Hara said.

Pakistan’s operations in the Khyber Pass region are achieving success, Washington-based U.S. State Department spokesman Fred Lash said today during a phone interview with American Forces Press Service.

“We certainly welcome that kind of cooperation we’re seeing,” Lash said, noting he understands that Pakistani forces “are making good progress” against the militants.

The United States appreciates Pakistan’s actions against militants operating along the border with Afghanistan, Lash said, as well as Pakistan’s arrests of suspects following the November terrorist attack on Mumbai, India.

“We welcome the full and transparent cooperation of Pakistan in all matters like this,” Lash said. “Not only in trying to ferret out the perpetrators of the Mumbai attack, but actions such as this in the Khyber-Pass region just shows they are cooperating more in a lot of ways.”

The Khyber Pass supply route was temporarily closed at the start of the Pakistani offensive, but U.S. Forces Afghanistan and NATO International Security Force officials had noted in a recent joint statement that closure of the supply route had “no immediate impact on our ability to provide supplies to the troops” in Afghanistan. Due to the offensive’s success, the Khyber Pass route was reopened today, according to news reports.

Meanwhile, U.S. military officials have been looking for other supply-route options. U.S. Transportation Command’s top officer, Air Force Gen. Duncan J. McNabb, traveled to several Central Asian countries in November to explore options for establishing added supply routes for Afghanistan operations, Transcom spokeswoman Cynthia Bauer said Dec. 31 during a telephone interview with American Forces Press Service. Transcom is based at Scott Air Force Base, Ill.

“We’ve been looking at alternate distribution routes for a while,” Bauer said.