France to order a dozen of C130J!

[flamer84]

@Taygibay

What's your opinion on this ?

 

[Beast]

I know, but price increase and failure to achieve objectives is once again ruined by lack of commitment from European partners who always,always ! cut down on orders in mid program thus hammering available funds.After that,objectives in the program just get delayed and fall like dominos.What should have been a superb machine once again turns into a fiasco,just like the Tiger,just like the NH90,just like the Horizone destroyers ,just like the Euro common UAV programs,just like the Eurofighter.Most of the programs i've listed will achieve their goals but with delays and huge increase in costs,some won't even reach full capability (see the Horizone who should have had 64VLS not 48).It's a f'ucking disgrace !

So much bragging of your European power. China will fill that void. We don't have greedy defense contractor.

Can someone elucidate why the A400 program is a failure?

I get that its delayed and overbudget...but that is the case with almost all big ticket military developments even in the US.

The price is too high for further development. Typical western defense contractor ways of doing things.

 

[Víðarr]

So much bragging of your European power. China will fill that void. We don't have greedy defense contractor.

No, you just have defense contractors that don't live up to the conditions of the contracts they signed. Ask the Turks about their T-Loramids tender and how the Chinese contractor is failing to live up to its tech transfer obligations.

Turkey's T-Loramids technology transfer troubles - IHS Jane's 360

Your contractors are just as poor as the Western ones you're demonizing.

The price is too high for further development. Typical western defense contractor ways of doing things.

You should read more and talk less. The Virginia class is under-budget, or you could look here for a complete analysis and explanation for why you are wrong... again.

http://comptroller.defense.gov/Port...y2015/fy2015_Budget_Request_Overview_Book.pdf

A few over-budget programs doesn't mean everything is. Programs like the F-35 and LCS are abnormalities, most projects finish on-time and under or at budget.

Office of the Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller)

The US Military's Comptroller's office ensures this.

@SvenSvensonov @Nihonjin1051 @Peter C @Georgeclark @AMDR @C130

Since the fiasco of the A400M and that capacity of refuelling of the aircraft has been abandonned,France will order a dozen of C130Js Super Hercule.

A team of the DGA (it is the French Government Defense procurement agency responsible for the program management, development and purchase of weapon systems for the French military) is currently in the US to negociate a deal....
Since the need of the French army is urgent,we will take the aircrafts from the production line which was supposed to serve the US ARMY.
The deal could be finalized very soon


La France va acquérir une dizaine de C-130 - Air et Cosmos

These aircrafts would probably serve the special forces..

Would you like to join me in poking a bit of fun at the British?



France is once again our most valued partner.

France Displaces Britain as Key US Military Ally

 

[Capt.Popeye]

The A400M program is sadly a big fiasco... the price is increasing,i won't talk about the delays.....
And when there are no other European/French alternatives,you have to look somewhere else..

That is really sad. The question is: was the project conceived and managed well enough? Not to mention that the European countries have rarely been able to co-ordinate themselves while the European Economy is taking a beating. This also means that the IAF will get bound into subsequent deals for more Super Herks; which the IAF has been pushing for anyway.

 

[flamer84]

So much bragging of your European power. China will fill that void. We don't have greedy defense contractor.


The price is too high for further development. Typical western defense contractor ways of doing things.

It's not about the contractor,it's the client.What China has and i'll give you that ,is a centralised leadership wich has the will to do what it needs to be done.European products are superb,yes superb is the word but they are undermined by the political class.I mean,in Germany for example,they are delaying PUMA IFV induction because it wasn't certified to carry pregnant women-stupid delays-increase in cost.For all the democracy fan that i am,i'm starting to think that whole Europe needs a dictator,like in Roman times,with absolute power granted by a Senate for 10-12 years time ,just to put things into shape and do what needs to be done .

 

[Beast]

No, you just have defense contractors that don't live up to the contracts they signed. Ask the Turks about their T-Loramids tender and how the Chinese contractor is failing to live up to its tech transfer obligations.

Turkey's T-Loramids technology transfer troubles - IHS Jane's 360

Your contractors are just as poor as the Western ones you're demonizing

As if western , Russian and American will give you full TOT? Nobody will provide that extend of tech transfer. Our AESA radar offer to turkey is the best out of all contender and we are the only bidder not chicken out like S-300, patriot and aster who refuse to test their missile according to turkish require scenario. We are confident of our product and only our missile hit all intended targets.

As for European defense, it will be the trend. Project cancel and never materializes becos cost is too much and Europe are getting poorer and poor everyday. That is why European even under the threat of US still decide to join AIIB. Becos China is the place where money is. We have plenty of money to materialize projects.

Look at European Galileo GPS, no where to go for event a single region operation while China just launch another beidou GPS system on 31th March to continue towards worldwide transition as planned.

It's not about the contractor,it's the client.What China has and i'll give you that ,is a centralised leadership wich has the will to do what it needs to be done.European products are superb,yes superb is the word but they are undermined by the political class.I mean,in Germany for example,they are delaying PUMA IFV induction because it wasn't certified to carry pregnant women-stupid delays-increase in cost.For all the democracy fan that i am,i'm starting to think that whole Europe needs a dictator,like in Roman times,with absolute power granted by a Senate for 10-12 years time ,just to put things into shape and do what needs to be done .

Superb is useless if it has an exorbitant price tag. No one can afford it . Chinese can also produce very good quality product but the price will not be general for clients.

As for domestic product, central government ensure contractor control the development cost strictly. Everything centralize so that price will not rise uneccesssry.

 

[Víðarr]

As if western , Russian and American will give you full TOT?

Wrong again buddy!

DOD prioritizes tech transfer to trusted Asian allies -- FCW

USAMRMC Medical Technology Transfer: Home

The US military offers full-tech transfer on a number of projects, Turkey is a trusted US ally, so is France, both would be given exceptions to US tech transfer restrictions.

In the T-Loramids program, it wasn't tech transfer, but cost that was the undoing of the US and European entry.

But all of this is off topic and let's not continue this discussion here.

 

[Beast]

Wrong again buddy!

DOD prioritizes tech transfer to trusted Asian allies -- FCW

USAMRMC Medical Technology Transfer: Home

The US military offers full-tech transfer on a number of projects, Turkey is a trusted US ally, so is France, both would be given exceptions to US tech transfer restrictions.

In the T-Loramids program, it wasn't tech transfer, but cost that was the undoing of the US and European entry.

But all of this is off topic and let's not continue this discussion here.

You are very wrong. Their terms of TOT is not unrestricted transfer of all technology.

Let me ask you one simple question. Why turkey still not able to come up a F100 class engine despite making F-16 with the production of engine even build in turkey? Why turkey is still a novice when comes to turbofan engine? Can you produce an aero engine thrust to weight ratio of 8:1 independently?

 

[flamer84]

Superb is useless if it has an exorbitant price tag. No one can afford it . Chinese can also produce very good quality product but the price will not be general for clients.

As for domestic product, central government ensure contractor control the development cost strictly. Everything centralize so that price will not rise uneccesssry.

Because you start the program with a goal in mind and with firm orders from the state.When you start the program in Europe with 200 units firm order (just an example) only to cut that order to 120 mid program,or even to 80 at the end of the program,costs will rise.Add to that the fact that some partners suddenly start asking for changes to what was a certain requirement,also in mid program,and you'll have further escalation of costs.

 

[Beast]

Because you start the program with a goal in mind and with firm orders from the state.When you start the program in Europe with 200 units firm order (just an example) only to cut that order to 120 mid program,or even to 80 at the end of the program,costs will rise.Add to that the fact that some partners suddenly start ask for changes to what was a certain requirement,also in mid program,and you'll have further escalation of costs.

That does not change the fact, it kill the tech. Isn't this A400M a good case study of my analogy? Partner cuts becos delay and delay and top of that price rise to a horrible level. You cannot blame partner if they decide to cut order, right?

 

[flamer84]

That does not change the fact, it kill the tech. Isn't this A400M a good case study of my analogy? Partner cuts becos delay and delay and top of that price rise to a horrible level. You cannot blame partner if they decide to cut order, right?

Most of the time partners operate cuts just because they slash funds out of thin air.They done it with the Horizone,Tiger,NH90,A400.That in turn causes delays and increase of costs.

Now,you can't really say that delays don't ever happen in China to because information is simply not that transparent.

 

[duhastmish]

There is also a big difference between.
Exploring and inventing new phenomenon

Compared to

Learning what exist and copying it.
---------///-/-
There can not be comparison between pioneers and followers. Europe is mother of invention from wheel to god partical.

I love my jaguar and Mercedes. I can't imagine replacing them for a Chinese tin can

 

[Beast]

Most of the time partners operate cuts just because they slash funds out of thin air.They done it with the Horizone,Tiger,NH90,A400.That in turn causes delays and increase of costs.

Now,you can't really say that delays don't ever happen in China to because information is simply not that transparent.

We have the money and we have a centralise government to ensure country objective first and not greedy contractor pocket first.

That is why you see more and more project of Chinese military. Isn't J-20 a classic example. Due to the exorbitant price for Europe to develop a 5th gen fighter, they totally abandon it.

There is also a big difference between.
Exploring and inventing new phenomenon

Compared to

Learning what exist and copying it.
---------///-/-
There can not be comparison between pioneers and followers. Europe is mother of invention from wheel to god partical.

Nothing will last forever, if you think just becos they earn that title in the past means future will too without working out a workable plan or being hardworking then be prepare to be overtake by others.

 

[flamer84]

That is why you see more and more project of Chinese military. Isn't J-20 a classic example. Due to the exorbitant price for Europe to develop a 5th gen fighter, they totally abandon it.

Never followed vone in the first place so there was nothing to be abandoned.I explained to you allready why,no need to repeat myself.

 

[Beast]

Never followed vone in the first place so there was nothing to be abandoned.I explained to you allready why,no need to repeat myself.

Our J-20 is going to enter service soon and I have yet to even see a model of a so called European 5th gen fighter project intend to go ahead.

If European need to stay ahead and ensure more project. They need to restructure the whole defense project management but that is easier say than done. European defense project is too expensive now and will be even more expensive in future and it will destroy everything.