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Indian Army shot Pakistani officers, after calling flag meeting

Please note which one of the tweets you quoted I was actually responding to in my post.
That verification will take time as it is breaking news even on Indian news networks which won't be credible for you.

You don't have to compare - the difference is right there in front of you, on this thread in fact, given the quotes of the statements issued by the two sides.

The BSF is openly threatening to commit War Crimes, engaging in cowardly ambushes of enemy soldiers after inviting them for a Flag Meeting, engaging in Bollywood sensationalism and showing a complete lack of respect, maturity and professionalism with nonsensical statements about 'we killed this many and this many', as if the BSF bullets and mortars are guided by Ram & Sita to their destiny, and Ancient Indians came down to provide 'Force Fields' for BSF bunkers such that Pakistanis suffer ridiculously more casualties while the BSF gets by largely unscathed.

The Indian media and those who buy into it are taking the meaning of the phrase 'suspension of disbelief' to a whole new level.

"If Pakistan rangers fire on us, we will also fire on them. If they suffer collateral damages (in our action), they (Pakistan) should be ready for that," Inspector General (IG) of BSF, Jammu Frontier, Rakesh Sharma"

Asked whether there were instructions from the Centre to give befitting reply to Pakistan, the IG said, "There were already clear instructions in the past as also this time and will continue in future too."

"See how Pakistan rangers have snipped the patrol party of BSF. This is utter frustration of Pakistan as they are not getting an opportunity to infiltrate into this side."

"It is beyond our comprehension why Pakistan is resorting to firing on our borders. One reason is that their internal disturbances as their internal situation is very bad in wake of terror attacks there and may be to divert the attention of the public,

There are various smaller militant groups waiting for opportunity to infiltrate into this side of the border and carry out some terror attacks. But there is a high degree of vigilance on the borders and despite the adverse weather conditions, BSF men are dominating and patrolling areas round the clock,

Winter strategy is in place on the borders. We have tight security on the borders. Our manpower on the borders and jawans are very alert and vigilant, whether it is day or night,"

This is what BSF is saying i don't see any bollywoood tamasha or sita ram here its their job to be assertive at a time which is historically vulnerable ,when we have to host US president at our republic day and this is just one but the biggest of reasons one can assume.
 
Perhaps they left that for the Rangers spokesperson to comment on, and the media failed to ask? I don't see a denial from ISPR or the Rangers that casualties did not occur, what I see is a lack of reporting on the issue, a lack of reporting that is not consistent with the events prior to October 2014 or subsequent to it, and which therefore does not fit in with your conspiracy theory.

When side is reporting that certain number of casualties amongst Pakistani rangers and the other side just reporting civilian casualties, it is pretty obvious, that they are intentionally hiding the whole truth.

These discrepancies are not just a one time incident, in the past also I have noticed such.eg incident in 5 Indian jawans were ambushed and killed by Pakistani BAT and subsequent Indian retliation, which found no mention in Pakistani newspapers...but I do not have the paitience to dig through it right now.

But not just BAT incident, there are more too.

“Pakistan chose to underplay the Nadala incident,” a senior Pakistani military officer involved with its Military Operations Directorate told The Hindu, “as General Pervez Musharraf had only recently staged his coup, and did not want a public outcry that would spark a crisis with India.”
.....
“Ever since 9/11,” a senior Pakistan army officer told The Hindu, “we have sought to downplay these incidents, aware that a public backlash [could] push us into a situation we cannot afford on the LoC, given that much of our army is now committed to our western borders. Each of these incidents has been protested by us on both military and UNMOGIP channels.”

Locked in U.N. files, 15 years of bloodletting at LoC - The Hindu
 
Pakistani good in making story without proof..........
 
Pakistani army should stop supporting terrorist.
Pakistan should close all of their terror factory if the want peace in the region.

Look who's talking your army should stop supporting terrorist insurgencies against Pakistan, where your country is aiding, financing and abetting terrorists and providing logistical support, where do you think these TTP zombies are getting their training from? Peace will only prevail when your country stops backstabbing Pakistan which unfortunately is the norm from India.
 
Pakistan Violates Ceasefire Again, Targets BSF Posts in Jammu's Samba and Hiranagar
All India | Reported by Sheikh Zaffar Iqbal, Edited by Sanchari Bhattacharya | Updated: January 03, 2015 00:38 IST

  • SRINAGAR:

  • Five Pakistan Rangers have been killed since Thursday after Indian security forces retaliated to heavy firing near the International Border in Jammu and Kashmir.

    The ceasefire violations continued on Friday evening, when Pakistani Rangers resorted to heavy mortar shelling and firing on Border Security Force or BSF posts in Jammu's Samba and Hiranagar sectors. Cross-border firing is still going on in the two sectors. (Baseless, Says India on Pakistan's Allegations over Cross-Border Firing)

    Home Minister Rajnath Singh ordered the BSF to respond with 'appropriate' action to the cross-border firing; the firing was unprovoked, said the Home Ministry

    Today's ceasefire violation was the fourth by the Rangers in as many days and the eighth in the last nine days.

    On Tuesday, a BSF jawan was killed when Pakistani Rangers fired on a group of Indian soldiers on patrol.

    India had returned fire and four Pakistani soldiers were killed in retaliation. India stopped firing when Pakistan Rangers raised a white flag, requesting time to remove the bodies.

    In a letter to External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj today, Pakistan's Foreign Affairs Adviser Sartaj Aziz had alleged that India killed two Pakistani Rangers after calling them for a meeting on the International Border on December 31.

    India has dismissed the allegations, saying they are baseless.
Pakistan Violates Ceasefire Again, Targets BSF Posts in Jammu's Samba and Hiranagar
 
When side is reporting that certain number of casualties amongst Pakistani rangers and the other side just reporting civilian casualties, it is pretty obvious, that they are intentionally hiding the whole truth.

These discrepancies are not just a one time incident, in the past also I have noticed such.eg incident in 5 Indian jawans were ambushed and killed by Pakistani BAT and subsequent Indian retliation, which found no mention in Pakistani newspapers...but I do not have the paitience to dig through it right now.

But not just BAT incident, there are more too.

“Pakistan chose to underplay the Nadala incident,” a senior Pakistani military officer involved with its Military Operations Directorate told The Hindu, “as General Pervez Musharraf had only recently staged his coup, and did not want a public outcry that would spark a crisis with India.”
.....
“Ever since 9/11,” a senior Pakistan army officer told The Hindu, “we have sought to downplay these incidents, aware that a public backlash [could] push us into a situation we cannot afford on the LoC, given that much of our army is now committed to our western borders. Each of these incidents has been protested by us on both military and UNMOGIP channels.”

Locked in U.N. files, 15 years of bloodletting at LoC - The Hindu
There is no such thing as a 'BAT' - it's an imaginary 'unit' concocted by the Indian media and security establishment for propaganda purposes, so obviously no Pakistani government institution is going to comment on it other than to deny baseless Indian concoctions.

As for the rest, the quotes attributed to Pakistani officials are self explanatory, that Pakistani government and military generally chooses to downplay incidents along the LoC/WB in order to not inflame situations and cause things to escalate, which in turn makes their current position even stronger since both the Rangers and the Government have protested the cowardly attack by the BSF under the guise of a Flag Meeting.

The excerpt you posted also supports my earlier comment that Pakistani security institutes are far more restrained and professional in their statements than the BSF and IA are. Surely, despite all your jingoism, you see the utter bankruptcy of the BSF in threatening to commit War Crimes by threatening 'collateral damage' as part of their punitive response.

That verification will take time as it is breaking news even on Indian news networks which won't be credible for you.
Of course Indian media sources can't be taken as credible - they launched into full propaganda and brainwash Indians mode without all the facts over a fishing boat which, at worse, seemingly was involved in smuggling contraband, not explosives or terrorists., and they regurgitate BSF/IA/GoI propaganda without a shred of verification or objectivity.
Little evidence of ‘terror’ link, may have been petty smugglers | The Indian Express
This is what BSF is saying i don't see any bollywoood tamasha or sita ram here its their job to be assertive at a time which is historically vulnerable ,when we have to host US president at our republic day and this is just one but the biggest of reasons one can assume.
@ares
That is the point, the media is regurgitating BSF statements that are ludicrous and the holes in their rationale should be obvious to most rational observers. Both the Pakistani and Indian side have used similar weaponry during the clashes recently and in the past, and since BSF/IA bullets and mortar shells are not 'guided by Sita and Ram', and BSF/IA bunkers are not 'protected by Force Fields provided by Ancient Indian technology', any static exchange of fire across the LoC/WB will inflict similar levels of damage on either side.

So if Pakistani forces target 'a dozen bunkers with small arms and mortar fire', and the IA/BSF responds with 'small arms and mortar fire', why on earth do you think the IA/BSF is not going to suffer similar casualties to the Pakistani forces? If the IA/BSF can 'destroy a Pakistani bunker' with small arms and mortar fire, why do you think the Pakistani side can't destroy an IA/BSF bunker with similar small arms and mortar fire?

Use some common sense already and stop swallowing the nonsensical propaganda fed to you by your media and military establishment. The BSF/IA is running a Bollywood Tamash in cahoots with the Indian media, and Indians like you keep dancing to it without a second thought.
 
Pakistani good in making story without proof..........
Our officers were shot from close range... what does it tells you?
We are sending neutral officers.. towards your army... for what possible reason?
I'm not holding you guilty... but the guilty are our historians, who failed to educate us on Hindu traits.
 
There is no such thing as a 'BAT' - it's an imaginary 'unit' concocted by the Indian media and security establishment for propaganda purposes, so obviously no Pakistani government institution is going to comment on it other than to deny baseless Indian concoctions.

....and you would know that with absolute certainty, how?

......since both the Rangers and the Government have protested the cowardly attack by the BSF under the guise of a Flag Meeting.

According to the Pakistani Rangers, soldiers carrying a white flag and going for a "flag meeting" were supposedly shot. The story goes that the Pakistanis then raised another white flag & went to collect the bodies. Something different about the whiteness of the 2 flags? How did the Rangers suddenly become confident that the BSF would not fire and if the BSF was used to firing at soldiers carrying white flags, why stop with one? Could have taken down more Pakistanis, couldn't they?



That is the point, the media is regurgitating BSF statements that are ludicrous and the holes in their rationale should be obvious to most rational observers. Both the Pakistani and Indian side have used similar weaponry during the clashes recently and in the past, and since BSF/IA bullets and mortar shells are not 'guided by Sita and Ram', and BSF/IA bunkers are not 'protected by Force Fields provided by Ancient Indian technology', any static exchange of fire across the LoC/WB will inflict similar levels of damage on either side.

Except that the BSF is a much larger force when compared to the Rangers & can bring far more firepower to bear in any given situation than the rangers. There was a program by Ejaz Haider at the time of the last flare up comparing the BSF & the Rangers and pointing out that the BSF was a much better equipped & armed force with equipment that the rangers didn't have. Pakistani government's own statistics for the last engagement showed a 1:4 ratio in favour of the BSF of the rounds fired. Maybe Rational thinking ought to be a 2 way street.
 
As for the rest, the quotes attributed to Pakistani officials are self explanatory, that Pakistani government and military generally chooses to downplay incidents along the LoC/WB in order to not inflame situations and cause things to escalate, which in turn makes their current position even stronger since both the Rangers and the Government have protested the cowardly attack by the BSF under the guise of a Flag Meeting.

The excerpt you posted also supports my earlier comment that Pakistani security institutes are far more restrained and professional in their statements than the BSF and IA are. Surely, despite all your jingoism, you see the utter bankruptcy of the BSF in threatening to commit War Crimes by threatening 'collateral damage' as part of their punitive response.

Choosing to downplay the incident is another way of saying not informing your own citizens which might prove an inconvenience.

For example propagating civilian casualties but at the same time hiding military ones (as that might prove in embarrassment for the force) as happened in Oct 2014.

Bottom line here is, whatever the reason, Pakistan armed forces can not be trusted with casualty figures it reports, as some times (in their own words) they downplay the incident at other times willfully omit them all together.






BSF replies to Pakistan firing; 2 Rangers killed - The Hindu

Updated: January 3, 2015 07:41 IST

Friday’s ceasefire violation was the fourth by the Rangers in as many days and the eighth in the last nine days.

Pakistan on Friday night resorted to heavy mortar shelling and firing on several BSF posts along the India-Pakistan border in Samba and Kathua districts of Jammu and Kashmir, drawing a strong retaliation from India which killed two Pakistan Rangers.

BSF sources said they have got reports that five Pakistani Rangers have been killed in the exchange of fire since Thursday, with two casualties post 9:30 p.m.

Friday’s ceasefire violation was the fourth by the Rangers in as many days and the eighth in the last nine days.

BSF Director-General D.K. Pathak, who briefed Home Minister Rajnath Singh at 10 p.m., said the force had thwarted a “major infiltration attempt” from across the border tonight and his troops were on high alert.

“We have foiled a major infiltration bid that was being carried out from across the Chorgali border outpost under the cover of heavy ceasefire violation firing,” Mr. Pathak said.

With the violations continuing unabated, Mr. Singh had ordered BSF to respond with “appropriate” action. The Home Minister also said the firing was unprovoked.

A senior police officer in Jammu earlier told PTI that “Pakistan Rangers resorted to heavy firing and mortar shelling along International Border (IB) in Samba and Hiranagar sectors of J&K since 2135 hours tonight.”

Also, IG BSF Rakesh Sharma told PTI that all the Border Out Posts (BoPs) falling in three battalion areas of Samba and Hiranagar are being fired upon by Pakistan amid mortar shelling. Mortar shelling has also hit civilian areas, he said.

There was firing on four BoPs in Samba sector including at Regal, Challiyari, Suchetgarh and also on three to four such posts up to Bansantar forward belt in Hiranagar sector of Kathua district, he said.

The firing and mortar shelling by Pakistan Rangers has come from Razab Sheed, Asif Sheed, Chak Bhura, New Pak and Dhandhar Posts, according to reports.

BSF troops guarding the IB has strongly retaliated, resulting in heavy exchanges which were still ongoing when reports last came in from the area, the officer said.

Police used speakers and announced that people should stay indoors and not venture outside, he said, adding that they have been also told to take shelter in bunkers.



Opposition targets BJP govt over increased ceasefire violations by Pakistan



“Firing along international border was reported at 9.30 p.m. on 8 BoPs from areas of Pansar, Bobyan, Manyari and Pahadpur areas of Hirangar sector in Kathua district,” Deputy Commissioner Shahid Choudhary told PTI.

Border residents have been alerted and advised to keep lights off and stay indoors. Evacuation will be initiated early morning in areas where required, he said.

Ambulances and doctors have been deployed at Hiranagar for responding to emergencies and three buildings have been made operational as relief camps keeping in view the volatile situation prevailing in the area, he said.

The Deputy Commissioner of Kathua along with senior officers of administration are camping in Hiranagar for monitoring the situation and coordinating relief and rescue operations.

All local body and panchayat officials and prominent persons in 57 border villages have been asked over the telephone to communicate to the public the messages regarding safety measures. Relief camps have also kept in preparedness, he said.

Eight BSF posts and villages at Patti, Pansar, Londi, Bobyan, Chakara, Lacchipura in Kathua district and seven border outposts in Samba district, including Manguchack, Chilyadiya, Regal, Chachval, Ramgarh, Maluchack and Nanga posts came under fire.




India shells Sialkot border villages - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
India shells Sialkot border villages
The Newspaper's Correspondent
Updated about an hour ago
54a751786ee6f.jpg

.—Reuters/File
SIALKOT: The Indian Border Security Force (BSF) resorted to unprovoked firing on Pakistani border villages in Shakargarh sector along the Working Boundary here on Friday.

It was the third consecutive day of Indian shelling on the border villages.

Also read: Cross-border firing kills two soldiers in Narowal: Chenab Rangers

According to Chenab Rangers officials, the BSF personnel started unprovoked firing on Pakistani villages at 08:30pm, targeting the civilian population there.

The Chenab Rangers retaliated in a befitting manner to the Indian firing. No casualties were reported.
 
All the above on your part was for naught - Sartaj Aziz is being quoted today as reiterating the account of the incident provided by the Chenab Rangers, so now please stop clutching at straws to discredit the Pakistani account.

Adviser to the Prime Minister on National Security and Foreign Affairs, Sartaj Aziz on Friday addressed a letter to the India’s Minister of External Affairs, Shushma Swaraj, to protest the killing of two soldiers of the Punjab Rangers in Zafarwal Sector.

On December 31, 2014, the Indian Border Security Force (BSF) troops invited the personnel of Punjab Rangers for a flag meeting. However, the unsuspecting soldiers were greeted with a volley of unprovoked fire, causing severe injuries to two soldiers who later died.

In the letter, which has been released to media, the adviser condemned the action of the BSF and lodged a strong protest with the Indian government.

He called for an immediate investigation into the incident and urged bringing the perpetrators to account.

The letter underlined: “The ambush of soldiers would undermine mechanisms established by the two countries to ensure peace and tranquillity along the Line of Control (LoC) and the Working Boundary (WB).”

The adviser’s letter was handed over to the Indian high commissioner by the foreign secretary.

Expressing concern at the way the incident had taken place, the foreign secretary underlined that the incident was not only a contravention to the rules of engagement, but also amounted to breach of trust of Pakistani soldiers in these mechanisms.

The foreign secretary also impressed upon the Indian high commissioner that it was not in Pakistan’s interest to increase tension on the LoC and WB, adding, “Our law enforcement agencies and armed forces were fully engaged in combating terrorism and militancy across the country.”

The Indian insinuations that Pakistan supported infiltration attempts were, therefore, far removed from reality, Foreign Secretary Aizaz Chaudhry remarked.

The Indian envoy was told that Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif as well as the entire nation took serious notice of the condemnable Indian aggression and expressed their shock and anger at the killing of the soldiers in cold blood.

Keeping in view the seriousness of the incident, the foreign secretary also briefed the Heads of the Missions of P-5 countries and the EU in Islamabad and emphasised the importance of maintaining ceasefire on the LoC and WB.

He stressed the urgency of the international community playing its role in counselling India to refrain from actions that threaten peace and stability in the region.

Pakistan lodges protest with India against killing of Rangers personnel - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Well, really there was no clutching of straws. Factually tribune misquoted the FO spokesperson and the briefing transcripts still shows that there was no mention of the ambush during the briefing. And that's exactly was the discussion on whether the spokesperson talked about the ambush or not. Anyway, here is the response from India

India Dismisses Pakistan's Allegations on Cross-Border Firing

India has rejected as baseless allegations made in a letter to External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj, by Pakistan's Foreign Affairs Adviser Sartaj Aziz, over cross-border firing earlier this week.

In the letter, Pakistan had alleged that India killed two Pakistani Rangers in cold blood after calling them for a meeting on the International Border on December 31.

In a statement, Pakistan's Foreign Office said Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif has condemned the incident and Mr Aziz has lodged a strong protest through the letter, calling for an immediate investigation.

"On December 31, 2014, the Indian Border Security Force troops invited the personnel of the Punjab Rangers for a flag meeting, but greeted the unsuspecting soldiers with a volley of unprovoked fire, causing severe injuries to two soldiers. The unabated Indian firing denied timely medical attention to the wounded soldiers, who succumbed to their injuries," claimed a press release issued by the Pakistan Foreign Office.

The Indian Foreign Ministry has strongly denied the accusation, saying this had already been conveyed at a meeting in Islamabad between Pakistan's Foreign Secretary and India's High Commissioner


Read both again - in the first the COAS is calling for the troops to avoid/minimize collateral damage, even if it entails 'risking the lives of soldiers', and in the second he is apologizing for the collateral damage that occurred, in error. The COAS/Pak Military made no threat to 'inflict collateral damage on the Tribes because of their support for the TTP'. The BSF statement on the other hand is one in which the BSF is threatening to deliberately inflict collateral damage as a punitive 'response'. There is no comparison between the two.

The first is a legitimate statement completely in accordance with international laws on armed conflict, the second (by the BSF) is an outright declaration of intent to commit War Crimes.
Never thought that you would have such comprehension deficit. Read the BSF statement again.. This time with the right parts highlighted

"If Pakistan rangers fire on us, we will also fire on them. If they suffer collateral damages (in our action), they (Pakistan) should be ready for that,"

Clearly calling out that Pakistan will be responsible for any collateral damage if it initiates hostilities. On the other hand,no matter what you say, following your logic, knowingly sending in f 16s with gravity bombs in civilian areas, and killing families of the militants along with the terrorists is a war crime Pakistan has been committing since months

There is nothing in the UN Charter that declares the UN Resolutions on Kashmir to be 'non-binding'. The only distinction between Chapter VI and Chapter VII resolutions is the ability of the UNSC to authorize enforcement actions.
The title of chapter VI is "Pacific resolution of disputes" and you are right, UN does not enforce the resolutions under Chapter VI and leaves it to the parties to implement those through mutually agreed negotiations. And that's the definition of non binding.


A large number of international treaties (including Simla, the Indus Water Treaty etc) do not have any 'enforcement mechanisms' built in that can coerce a State to abide by their treaty obligations, so the UN Resolutions on Kashmir are no different from any other international treaty or commitment India has entered into. India is simply willfully choosing to violate the commitments her government made to implement the UNSC Resolutions per her obligations under the UN Charter.
Wrong again. First of all, its a non binding resolution and not a treaty on which India is a signatory. Secondly India, way back in 1950's put the onus of non implementation of this resolution on Pakistani action of changing the demographics of the P OK and not withdrawing its forces that was the pre condition of the plebiscite. Another key difference between the Kashmir resolution and IWT is the legality of the two. Breaches to IWT can be taken to ICJ. Try doing that wrt Kashmir and you will knwo the difference.


On the subject of Hafiz Saeed, India, or other nations, are free to raise any issues (in the UN) they see regarding Pakistan's implementation of the UN Sanctions on HS under the UN Charter. Pakistan has not refused to implement hose resolutions - Pakistan claims that the implementation actions it has carried out are in accordance Pakistani obligations under the UN Charter, a stance completely counter to the one taken by the Indian Government on the UNSC Resolutions on Kashmir, whereby India refuses outright to even consider implementing the resolutions.
Sure and Pakistan or other nations are free to raise any issue in the UN they see regarding India's stand on this topic. See where that leads.. :)
 
Oh! so your cold revenge was point 5353 ? :lol:

No. But there are many incidents that happened last and even this year. Kuch logon ko baiizzaati feel hi nahi hoti. I can see where you are coming from. :lol:
 
No. But there are many incidents that happened last and even this year. Kuch logon ko baiizzaati feel hi nahi hoti. I can see where you are coming from. :lol:
Dude, Incidents have happened in the whole of last 43 years and on both sides. But none of them of the scale of what I am referring to. Unless you considered the event of 43 years back so small that can be avenged by the killing of a few soldiers here and there. In which case, I yield the point ;)
 
Dude, Incidents have happened in the whole of last 43 years and on both sides. But none of them of the scale of what I am referring to. Unless you considered the event of 43 years back so small that can be avenged by the killing of a few soldiers here and there. In which case, I yield the point ;)

You only exploited a geographical weakness of Pakistan. With that weakness gone, it is a tit for every tat for you. :)
 
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