Ah memories! :D

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Inshallah.

My fear is insidious collapse of institutions, economy and civil society over years, and the only reason for the qualification I give above.

Instead of introducing democracy to the country, our political parties want to control the city’s riches

Only national parties should exist with a clear mission statement. Parties should not be free to block streets and create public disorder. In March, during city government elections in one of Switzerland’s richest cities, Geneva, parties and candidates were only allowed to establish few neat and clean kiosks manned by a single volunteer. Swiss citizens interested in picking up pamphlets bearing candidates’ pictures and manifestos could so. Few were interested. You could have mistaken these kiosks for a cell phone ad campaign. No messy street demonstrations. No wild party flags and posters and ''***** this and ***** that'' slogans. And no direct contacts between our parties and foreign governments.

it is the politicians who are leading to these weak institutions; problem with the common man in Pakistan --they are accustomed to being cynical but also they need to be willing to pay their dues as well.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think we will have a nice chat over coffee at some point. Can you wait for that please?

Let me know when, would love to join.

DC area or Michigan?

 

[VCheng]

I understand your concern over the collapse of society and institutions, but 'when' such a 'collapse' is achieved, and 'how', are subjective and relevant.

Yes, I agree. I hope that "when" never happens.

There are some in the US who argue that the time for 'military intervention in Pakistan' is now, and that doing so would advance US objectives in the region and assist in 'stabilizing Pakistan'. Who determines when there is truly a need for 'intervention'?

I can unequivocally state that I am NOT in that camp, nor was I ever was. The need for intervention will be the decision of a convoluted political process, and expat Pakistanis like me are your best bet to influence that process NOW.

And even if there is need for 'intervention', what will the costs of military intervention be, and will the US have played a part in bringing the situation to a point where intervention is justified?

Please see above. We all must act together NOW to prevent that scenario from ever happening.

There are too many variables here, too many undefined 'what ifs', and, therefore, a 'qualified answer' such as the one you offered, is not really adequate.

Do you see your own contradiction? How can you expect me to give an unqualified 100% sure answer to a question with too many undefined variables and unknowns, and still be truthful?

If I wanted to give you answers that I know you would like, I can do that too. But I cannot be dishonest.

I hope I explained myself here clearly.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am a perpetual student, I am still learning.

This thread is proof that even on PDF, content loses out to perceived identity. I'd rather not have to expose my identity anymore than I have to, but if that is what it takes then so be it.

I could be out having a very nice time, but the only reason I am here is because I think PDF is that important, for it has potential to effect positive changes. It is just that realizing potential takes hard work, not just words, just like Thar Coal and Reko Diq Copper!

Identity, IMO, is really only coming into play because of the TT issue.

We are after all a Pakistani defence forum, one that is considered contrarian in its own right to be considered by some to be a 'Indian/CIA Front'.

I believe that there is nothing wrong in being certain about the loyalties (to Pakistan) of any individual that the forum chooses to be, in essence, a representative of the forum in the sense that the forum recognizes and values that individual's contributions.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

There are some in the US who argue that the time for 'military intervention in Pakistan' is now, and that doing so would advance US objectives in the region and assist in 'stabilizing Pakistan'. Who determines when there is truly a need for 'intervention'?

it neither suits Pakistan nor is it a guarantee that the solutions to the problems would be immediately found....

intervention only should come when things appear to be headed to a point of no return, where Pakistan's very existence is at stakeand nobody else is there to steer it away from crisis.

Pakistan currently is not worse off than it was in mid 2008/09. The establishment operates in a dysfunctional manner, that goes without saying.

I don't think it's in the US interests to even issue public statements like ''Army should intervene''......it's hypocritical of them to do that; it also puts the Army in an uncomfortable position....not to mention, the population of Pakistan will not appreciate such comments on our internal affairs.

Zardari and his guys are deeply unpopular; but Pakistanis are the ones who must take charge of things and be proactive......Pakistani problems require Pakistani solutions.

 

[VCheng]

Let me know when, would love to join.

DC area or Michigan?

Seriously, we can plan something.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Let me know when, would love to join.

DC area or Michigan?

I've always wanted to go to Chicago, to be honest

but it goes without saying, you have a home in DC

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes, I agree. I hope that "when" never happens.



I can unequivocally state that I am NOT in that camp, nor was I ever was. The need for intervention will be the decision of a convoluted political process, and expat Pakistanis like me are your best bet to influence that process NOW.



Please see above. We all must act together NOW to prevent that scenario from ever happening.



Do you see your own contradiction? How can you expect me to give an unqualified 100% sure answer to a question with too many undefined variables and unknowns, and still be truthful?

If I wanted to give you answers that I know you would like, I can do that too. But I cannot be dishonest.

I hope I explained myself here clearly.

The answer is simple - Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam and a host of other countries point the way.

The answer to 'when is military intervention by a foreign entity justified' is NEVER - there is no need for a qualified answer.

---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 PM ----------

I've always wanted to go to Chicago, to be honest

but it goes without saying, you have a home in DC

Love Chicago - wouldn't mind a trip there either. Neutral ground so to speak eh

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Seriously, we can plan something.

Master-MastanKhan from California must join us as well. . .

i think maybe he has his own private Lear jet

 

[VCheng]

Identity, IMO, is really only coming into play because of the TT issue.

We are after all a Pakistani defence forum, one that is considered contrarian in its own right to be considered by some to be a 'Indian/CIA Front'.

I believe that there is nothing wrong in being certain about the loyalties (to Pakistan) of any individual that the forum chooses to be, in essence, a representative of the forum in the sense that the forum recognizes and values that individual's contributions.

Why do you think I have placed myself in the dock so publicly?

The answer is simple - Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam and a host of other countries point the way.

The answer to 'when is military intervention by a foreign entity justified' is NEVER - there is no need for a qualified answer.
...........................

We can talk a LOT about this, but would you consider the Kargil operation by the same yardstick? Be honest and fair now.

---------- Post added at 02:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:13 PM ----------

Master-MastanKhan from California must join us as well. . .

i think maybe he has his own private Lear jet

Sure, the more the merrier!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Master-MastanKhan from California must join us as well. . .

i think maybe he has his own private Lear jet

The more the merrier I say

Of course now we might be tailed by the CIA/FBI

I'll come dressed as a blonde with 36D's to throw off the tails.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

We can talk a LOT about this, but would you consider the Kargil operation by the same yardstick? Be honest and fair now.

I owe no loyalty to India, unlike both our situations WRT the US and Pakistan.

And the Indian and Pakistani interventions in each others nations go far back in history to the creation of both nations - India intervening in Jungadh for example.

 

[VCheng]

I owe no loyalty to India, unlike both our situations WRT the US and Pakistan.

And the Indian and Pakistani interventions in each others nations go far back in history to the creation of both nations - India intervening in Jungadh for example.

Well then, I took your post too generally then. I owe no loyalty to any other country except the two that I have publicly declared.

So now understanding your question specifically to USA and Pakistan, NO, I do NOT support direct military intervention by the USA inside Pakistan.

 

[Trucker]

I owe no loyalty to India, unlike both our situations WRT the US and Pakistan.

And the Indian and Pakistani interventions in each others nations go far back in history to the creation of both nations - India intervening in Jungadh for example.

he said be honest and fair
and especially when our PM just reached back to india,u did it..

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The more the merrier I say

Of course now we might be tailed by the CIA/FBI

I'll come dressed as a blonde with 36D's to throw off the tails.

dont do that...i might accidentally hit on you.

that wouldnt be good or within the norm!