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What Should be the "ideal" size of the Pakistan Navy in 2020.

We cannot afford Aircraft carrier it doesnt mean we dnt need it

We need and we should have a aircraft carrier by 2020-25 if we really want to have a strong military..

AC and N subs are very important.we need to locate some money for this..

sorry i disagree :disagree:

can you figure out the points on which you base you claims that the air craft is a must for PN, please keep in mind the Pakistan Navy Doctrine while answering,

the N-subs and AC are very important, ..... for??

looking forward to your reply, i hpe we can build up a healtjy discussion rather then personal attacks!
:cheers:

regards!
 
PN has no need for Aircraft carrier and N sub as well. 3-4 destroyers would be much better. my personal opinion on the said topic would be.
2-4 destroyers.
4 F22p + 4 More F22p or Type 054 frigates.
3 augusta90B (present) + 4 U214 or 7 chinese subs.
12 FAC.
7-10 anti sub or maritime aircrafts.
All present heli fleet replacement with Z-9C.
1 sqn of FC20 + 2 sqn of JF17.
2-3 AWACS.
UAV systems.
 
Reposting some of the elements posted by me in another thread -- all of them are relevant to what we are discussin here:

The requirement for PN's subsurface, surface and air fleet is based upon possible threats that it will have to face in case of war. India can and most probably will put in place a Maritime blockade of our ports. The others can be interception/inspection of cargo vessels, overall sea denial, possible naval bombardment of major ports, both by A/craft and missile. Launch of commando type raids to take out our main sea surveillance radar near Karachi. etc.

What would India use to achieve this in terms of Naval Assets? In my opinion the following:

Air carrier group for sea denial, launching attacks on Port facilities (Naval SU's/Sea Harrier), Naval blockade in conjunction with its submarines etc.

The inspection/interception of vessels can be done by both submarines and frigates/corvettes.

Hunter/killer patrols by submarines.

What would we need to counter this if we deploy on a purely defensive posture.

Our mission, in my mind, would be primarily hinged around sea denial, and escort of merchant ships/keeping the sea lanes open.

To do this we would need the following:

1. Early Warning Patrol/Maritime Recon Aircraft (This can be done through the P3c Orion -- the need is to enhance the number of planes to atleas 15)

2. Defensive line of patrol submarines for hunter killer role against surface combatants and against other hunter killer submarines. (We have the A90B's -- we need longer range submarines with more on station endurance – a total of at least 12)

3. Interdiction Standoff Strike at far ranges (both P3C Orion’s and Extended range CFT equipped or air refueled F-16 can perform this role with a range of 200 miles -- one-way range -- for f-16 c/d) We need to invest in the J-10 and its naval version to supplement and release the f-16 for Air superiority duties ASAP.

4. Patrolling of the sea lanes/trade routes should be done by Frigates (at least 14 to 16. Half of them ASW and the other half AShM equipped with short range anti missile defense weapons i.e. Rolling Airframe or similar and Phalanx etc.) This force can be supplemented by the proper use of Shipboard helos which will enhance the patrol range of these frigates and have far off ASW and second strike AShM capability.

It would also be advisable to use near shore sea lanes for the merchant vessels during the time of conflict to ensure availability of air cover for the merchant men and the escort vessel.

5. The Air threat from the carrier group should be tackled by the F-16 while conducting the sea denial patrols. Or the F-16 can provide the cover for the P3C to launch its Harpoons against the carriers/carrier group.

6. The near shore air cover of 100 to 150 miles can be provided by the Mirage Interdiction Squadron(s) at least two-- to be replaced by JF-17 with air refueling capability to ensure higher loiter time on target.

7. The second tier or defensive layer should be formed by Fast Missile boats/corvettes that currently PN lacks. We must have atleas 20 of these vessels.


All of the above needs to be tackled with improvements in the following area:

1. Development of Gawader as a "Real" Alternative port.
2. Buildup of Pak Marines as a strong quick reaction force of brigade level at least with its own organic helo support, ICMAV's, updated man pads SAM's and light artillery (Mechanized).
3. Development of Surveillance satellites. The game would be to get the first shot on the Carrier group.
4. Enhancement in strategic stocks to atleas 45 days.
5. Development of sub launched cruise missile.
6. Above all IMPORVEMENT IN OUR ECONOMY

The above is bare minimum. The real gap is the hunt for the hunter /killer sub groups of India as all our assets would be deployed to either hunt for surface vessels or deal with their defensive screens or escort of merchant vessels. Ideally, the surface fleet should have at least two hunter/killer ASW groups and enhanced number of submarines beyond the 12 or buy more Maritime Surveillance and ASW aircraft (This is the most cost effective option.)

The weak link in our naval doctrine, today, is the net centric capability or lack of it to gather process and assimilate all information bits to deploy a comprehensive flexible response to all types of threat dynamics. Remember, by the very nature of Naval warfare, launching a response will have an inherent lag time. Therefore, the need for “EYES & EARS”—AWACS?????


hope this helps.
 
If u accept my opinion then it should be something like this

Frigates = 10
Destroyers = 03 ( Convince china to give some second hand destroyer rather than spending money on OHP )
FAC = 10
Corvette = 8
OPV = 6
Submarines = 8
LPD = 2 ( You can try convincing US to provide 2 second hand LPD to provide anti Submarine and decent Expeditionary capability to PAK Marines , i dont think a 35 Yr LPD should cost more than the OHP frigate being acquired by PN considering that USS Trenton cost India only 52 Mil USD )
Minesweeper = 6
Auxiliaries = 8

Add to that airwing comprising the following
Helicopters = 50
Fighters = 20
Trainers = 16
Transport aircraft = 10
Anti Sub Aircraft = 10
UAV = 36


Pakistan should have a fleet of 52 Ships , 8 Submarines
and a Fleet Air Arm comprising 50 Helicopters , 56 Fixed wing aircraft and 36 UAV


Let me tell you guys something , anything more than that is just wishfull thinking

you forgot the intergalactic freighters and planetary strikers. oh and the battlestars.



sorry guys, cudnt resist after reading "aircraft carrier"
 
you forgot the intergalactic freighters and planetary strikers. oh and the battlestars.



sorry guys, cudnt resist after reading "aircraft carrier"

Err.. There are no Aircraft carriers mentioned in that list. :blink:
 
Instead of Aircraft Carrier PN should focus on Subs and Frigates if possible N-subs
because Aircraft carrier will be only useful in attacking role so they might not require them and even maintaining a carrier is too costly
 
I am no military professional, but I guess we should have atleast 10 submarines, with N power, a aircrafter carrier, and 12-15 Missile boasts with 6-8 F22p class frigates.

around 20-35 Patrol boats would also be better.


How about having some MRCM (N Capable) that could be launched from frigates?
Or SAMs, with large range, to overcome incoming Naval bombers?

I dont know much about Navy, but this is smooth enough for having a war (as our present navy could get trashed).

Navy, is the weakest part of Pakistan defence, currently.
 
To bring some sense to the discussion it would be advisable to think of what strategic and tactical challenges PN and Pakistan would be facing in this part of the world.

From my perspective India and China would be competing for this pond very soon due to access to African oil. Chinese play would greatly depend upon the role of Gawader. If we are able to stabilize Balochistan and get the port functioning properly with rail and road links up-country -- Chinese Navy would be have permanent presence in Arabian Sea.

That, to greater extent neutralizes Indian presence. However, US would continue to wield greater presence in and around the Arabian sea due its interests coming out of Straits of Hormuz. They will also align with India to continue to squeeze China in this region.

If this is the base line scenario and we stick with this (May be some of the members can extrapolate on my projections and than we can add those in an create a better model) than the Shape of PN would be dependant upon their strategic mission vis a vis Chinese presence and our own port and trade route security.

In my view:

15 Frigates for AAW/AShM and ASW role. Split into units of three boats (2 ASW & 1 AAW/AShM) backed up by smaller supply tankers. This gives us four patrol units -- one in port of repairs etc.

We currently have or will have very soon 4 F22P's, 1+5 OHP's (to replace the Amazon Class) and we are in the process of negotiating a heavier frigate with China-- I believe up to four platforms. This gives us a total of fourteen units. PN would also want to look for the Turkish option of maybe two units for delivery around 2018 - 2020.


Atleast 12 to Fifteen Submarines with a mix of upgraded Sensors and MESMA AIP on two A70's, all around force of three MESMA equipped A90B's. The challenge will be to fill the gap of 7 boats. PN should look for a Chinese or a combo of French or Spanish (S-80) type solution. Germany, in my opinion, is right now out of the picture. Another solution can be to go for an enhanced version of A90B's produced in Pakistan with better sensors and SUBTICS etc.

The challenge would be to integrate this Eco system with the French and the Chinese platforms and inter-operatibility with Chinese presence in the Greater Arabian Sea area.

A further four units of coastal type submarines should be used to patrol th inner approaches to our main harbors. The Andrasta Class can be an a contender.

This brings the total to sixteen boats -- 12 ocean going and 4 coastal type platforms.

MICMV is another area that PN should be address. Currently we have three Tripartite Eridan Class Mine Hunters. This needs to be expanded to cover the three commercial ports and two Naval bases -- (Karachi doubles up as a Naval & a Maritime port). IMHO it would require at least six vessels if we do not count the one extra unit needed to account for dry-docking/repair.

Once again we would need a tleast 25+ missile boats armed with 60+NM range missiles if not more. This would form the inner cordon near the main ports/bases. PN should invest in this lesser cost last ditch defense asset.

At least fifteen ASW & Maritime Patrol Aircraft are needed to keep, in times of war, three planes in the air at all times. P3C Orion - upgraded can do this job very well. We are now close to 10 planes in this category including all types of fixed wing ASW/Maritime platforms in PN.

This fixed inventory is to be backed up with at least 3 AWACS type of aircraft -- this is one item on PN agenda vis a vis US shopping list.

The inner cordon can be handled by Sea King or if possible Sea Hawk SH 60F or S models. They can be refurb. models as requested by Tunisia recently. We would again need at least 25+ units to put up an effective ASW and limited strike defense near our ports.

With the air refueling option now available, the Naval Strike Arm can effectively neutralize the Air Craft Carrier threat in conjunction with AWACS type of platform. This would effectively more than double the range of our eyes and ears and kick up the loiter time on station for our fighters or enable deeper ocean strikes away from shore. Once again I would not go berserk on the A/c needed since NAA would be required to take out surface platforms and not the A/c itself -- leave them to the point defense elements both surface to air and air to air deployed at the point of attack. A max of couple of squadrons of JF 17 equipped with Exocets or Harpoons can do the job effectively. We can supplement this with buddy refueling packs if really want to mount deeper strikes. However, I would want to change over the avionics pack of these fighters including its search and engagement radar to suit the Naval Warfare Environment. I believe the Mirages earmarked for Maritime strike have been equipped with a slightly different avionics and radar suit.

One area that we are lacking in is the Shore based SSM to be used for coastal defense. This is a cost effective solution against standoff missile attacks by enemy FAC's(M). Chinese have deployed a number of different types for this purpose.

We also need to enhance our longer range SAM point defense capability to guard our ports and Naval Bases.

However, all of the above depends upon the state of our ECONOMY.
 
The Chinese equipment would be on long term soft loans.
The Orions are out of FMS or EDA funds
The OHP's are $75 M a piece but paid out of EDA
The French Subs would cost somewhere from US$ 2.5B to 3.0B
The FAC's would cost roughly US$ 500 M
The Helos can be from US out of EDA or FMS funds
The three Mine hunters would cost around US$100M to 150M

This is pure conjecture on my part. I would guess that the total outlay over five to eight years would be around US$ 7 billion. ;-)

We can not afford this at all. So going for used OHP's, the Chinese route for the Frigates and submarines, delay in ordering the French ones, going for the Orion's -- in the absence of funds, this strategy makes sense.
 
a billion dollars yearly is possible given that other forces cut short some of their spending and also "if" our economy recovers just in time, it would be able to sustain a more moderate navy. But first we really have to deal with our economic situation ASAP.
 
Aamir Hussain, Sir, even my point of view is quite same, but we must not forget the limited budget.
Regards.
 

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