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Y chromosome and mtdna

Wholegrain

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@Enemy @MertKaan

Y Chromosome and mtdna do not determine phenotypes. Autosomal DNA does

Y chrosome and mtdna are just less than .01% of your total DNA. They only trace your distant paternal and maternal ancestry, they tell where they came from thousands of years ago. They do NOT determine physical looks or race. If you have a certain y chromosome or mtdna haplogroup, you are not "half" anything.

@Charon would you like to clear this up? Several members on here seem to think Y chromosomes and mtdna determine your physical looks.
 
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@Enemy @MertKaan

Y Chromosome and mtdna do not determine phenotypes. Autosomal DNA does

Y chrosome and mtdna are just less than .01% of your total DNA. They only trace your distant paternal and maternal ancestry, they tell where they came from thousands of years ago. They do NOT determine physical looks or race. If you have a certain y chromosome or mtdna haplogroup, you are not "half" anything.

@Charon would you like to clear this up? Several members on here seem to think Y chromosomes and mtdna determine your physical looks.

Here is the biography of the author from whose book the snapshots of which I am going to post here.

Biography & Contact

Now see what Madhusree says in her book: The Land of Naked People

Page 75

30lc742.png
2s6txtl.png
mrbho3.png


How does it matter in determining phenotype?

Note this in particular:

2re42uc.png


So how come Indian men (upper castes) look more Caucasoid than Indian women who more closely resemble other Asians if you study a lot of Indian facial structures of both males and females?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Here is the biography of the author from whose book the snapshots of which I am going to post here.

Biography & Contact

Now see what Madhusree says in her book: The Land of Naked People

Page 75

30lc742.png
2s6txtl.png
mrbho3.png


How does it matter in determining phenotype?

Note this in particular:

2re42uc.png


So home come Indian men (upper castes) look more Caucasoid than Indian women who more closely resemble other Asians if you study a lot of Indian facial structures of both males and females?

Biography & Contact

Madhusree Mukerjee was born in India and moved to the U.S. to train as a physicist. She received a PhD in 1989 from the University of Chicago. After a stint as a post-doc she changed careers to journalism and served on the board of editors of Scientific American for seven years. She left the magazine to have a baby and to write her first book, The Land of Naked People, with the help of a Guggenheim fellowship. Her latest book is Churchill's Secret War. She lives in Germany with her husband and son.

So if I get a degree in biology, can I blather on about quantum physics?

If an Arab moved to China hundreds of years ago, his descendants in the direct male line now will have Y chrosome Haplogroup J1 or some other Arab haplogroup, but they will look entirely Chinese because of racial mixing. Get it? Almost his entire autosomal DNA will match other Chinese.
 
Biography & Contact

So if I get a degree in biology, can I blather on about quantum physics?

If an Arab moved to China hundreds of years ago, his descendants in the direct male line now will have Y chrosome Haplogroup J1 or some other Arab haplogroup, but they will look entirely Chinese because of racial mixing. Get it? Almost his entire autosomal DNA will match other Chinese.

She referred to Bamshad's study.

Google Professor Michael J. Bamshad. He is the guru in the field of genetic study. He is not some random guy posting garbage on forums.

Here is what his study says: Abstract

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations
Michael Bamshad, Toomas Kivisild, [...], and Lynn B. Jorde

The origins and affinities of the ∼1 billion people living on the subcontinent of India have long been contested. This is owing, in part, to the many different waves of immigrants that have influenced the genetic structure of India. In the most recent of these waves, Indo-European-speaking people from West Eurasia entered India from the Northwest and diffused throughout the subcontinent. They purportedly admixed with or displaced indigenous Dravidic-speaking populations.

Subsequently they may have established the Hindu caste system and placed themselves primarily in castes of higher rank. To explore the impact of West Eurasians on contemporary Indian caste populations, we compared mtDNA (400 bp of hypervariable region 1 and 14 restriction site polymorphisms) and Y-chromosome (20 biallelic polymorphisms and 5 short tandem repeats) variation in ∼265 males from eight castes of different rank to ∼750 Africans, Asians, Europeans, and other Indians.

For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians. However, 20%–30% of Indian mtDNA haplotypes belong to West Eurasian haplogroups, and the frequency of these haplotypes is proportional to caste rank, the highest frequency of West Eurasian haplotypes being found in the upper castes.

In contrast, for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank. Nevertheless, the mitochondrial genome and the Y chromosome each represents only a single haploid locus and is more susceptible to large stochastic variation, bottlenecks, and selective sweeps.

Thus, to increase the power of our analysis, we assayed 40 independent, biparentally inherited autosomal loci (1 LINE-1 and 39 Alu elements) in all of the caste and continental populations (∼600 individuals).

Analysis of these data demonstrated that the upper castes have a higher affinity to Europeans than to Asians, and the upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are the lower castes. Collectively, all five datasets show a trend toward upper castes being more similar to Europeans, whereas lower castes are more similar to Asians.

We conclude that Indian castes are most likely to be of proto-Asian origin with West Eurasian admixture resulting in rank-related and sex-specific differences in the genetic affinities of castes to Asians and Europeans.

Shared Indo-European languages (i.e., Hindi and most European languages) suggested to linguists of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries that contemporary Hindu Indians are descendants of primarily West Eurasians who migrated from Europe, the Near East, Anatolia, and the Caucasus 3000–8000 years ago (Poliakov 1974; Renfrew 1989a,b). These nomadic migrants may have consolidated their power by admixing with native Dravidic-speaking (e.g., Telugu) proto-Asian populations who controlled regional access to land, labor, and resources (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994), and subsequently established the Hindu caste hierarchy to legitimize and maintain this power (Poliakov 1974; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).

It is plausible that these West Eurasian immigrants also appointed themselves to predominantly castes of higher rank. However, archaeological evidence of the diffusion of material culture from Western Eurasia into India has been limited (Shaffer 1982). Therefore, information on the genetic relationships of Indians to Europeans and Asians could contribute substantially to understanding the origins of Indian populations.

Previous genetic studies of Indian castes have failed to achieve a consensus on Indian origins and affinities. Various results have supported closer affinity of Indian castes either with Europeans or with Asians, and several factors underlie this inconsistency. First, erratic or limited sampling of populations has limited inferences about the relationships between caste and continental populations (i.e., Africans, Asians, Europeans). These relationships are further confounded by the wide geographic dispersal of caste populations.

Genetic affinities among caste populations are, in part, inversely correlated with the geographic distance between them (Malhotra and Vasulu 1993), and it is likely that affinities between caste and continental populations are also geographically dependent (e.g., different between North and South Indian caste populations). Second, it has been suggested that castes of different rank may have originated from or admixed with different continental groups (Majumder and Mukherjee 1993).

Third, the size of caste populations varies widely, and the effects of genetic drift on some small, geographically isolated castes may have been substantial. Fourth, most of the polymorphisms assayed over the last 30 years are indirect measurements of genetic variation (e.g., ABO typing), have been sampled from only a few loci, and may not be selectively neutral. Finally, only rarely have systematic comparisons been made with continental populations using a large, uniform set of DNA polymorphisms (Majumder 1999).

To investigate the origin of contemporary castes, we compared the genetic affinities of caste populations of differing rank (i.e., upper, middle, and lower) to worldwide populations. We analyzed mtDNA (hypervariable region 1 [HVR1] sequence and 14 restriction-site polymorphisms [RSPs]), Y-chromosome (5 short-tandem repeats [STRs] and 20 biallelic polymorphisms), and autosomal (1 LINE-1 and 39 Alu inserts) variation in ∼265 males from eight different Telugu-speaking caste populations from the state of Andhra Pradesh in South India (Bamshad et al. 1998).

Comparisons were made to ∼400 individuals from tribal and Hindi-speaking caste and populations distributed across the Indian subcontinent (Mountain et al. 1995; Kivisild et al. 1999) and to ∼350 Africans, Asians, and Europeans (Jorde et al. 1995, 2000; Seielstad et al. 1999).

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations

Also see this:

Pre-Caucasoid and Caucasoid genetic features of the Indian population, revealed by mtDNA polymorphisms.

Pre-Caucasoid and Caucasoid genetic features of the Indian population, revealed by mtDNA polymorphisms.



Now may I humbly ask your educational qualification and whether you have published any paper in any international journal supporting your argument?
 
She referred to Bamshad's study.

Google Professor Michael J. Bamshad. He is the guru in the field of genetic study. He is not some random guy posting garbage on forums.

Here is what his study says: Abstract

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations
Michael Bamshad, Toomas Kivisild, [...], and Lynn B. Jorde

The origins and affinities of the ∼1 billion people living on the subcontinent of India have long been contested. This is owing, in part, to the many different waves of immigrants that have influenced the genetic structure of India. In the most recent of these waves, Indo-European-speaking people from West Eurasia entered India from the Northwest and diffused throughout the subcontinent. They purportedly admixed with or displaced indigenous Dravidic-speaking populations.

Subsequently they may have established the Hindu caste system and placed themselves primarily in castes of higher rank. To explore the impact of West Eurasians on contemporary Indian caste populations, we compared mtDNA (400 bp of hypervariable region 1 and 14 restriction site polymorphisms) and Y-chromosome (20 biallelic polymorphisms and 5 short tandem repeats) variation in ∼265 males from eight castes of different rank to ∼750 Africans, Asians, Europeans, and other Indians.

For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians. However, 20%–30% of Indian mtDNA haplotypes belong to West Eurasian haplogroups, and the frequency of these haplotypes is proportional to caste rank, the highest frequency of West Eurasian haplotypes being found in the upper castes.

In contrast, for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank. Nevertheless, the mitochondrial genome and the Y chromosome each represents only a single haploid locus and is more susceptible to large stochastic variation, bottlenecks, and selective sweeps.

Thus, to increase the power of our analysis, we assayed 40 independent, biparentally inherited autosomal loci (1 LINE-1 and 39 Alu elements) in all of the caste and continental populations (∼600 individuals).

Analysis of these data demonstrated that the upper castes have a higher affinity to Europeans than to Asians, and the upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are the lower castes. Collectively, all five datasets show a trend toward upper castes being more similar to Europeans, whereas lower castes are more similar to Asians.

We conclude that Indian castes are most likely to be of proto-Asian origin with West Eurasian admixture resulting in rank-related and sex-specific differences in the genetic affinities of castes to Asians and Europeans.

Shared Indo-European languages (i.e., Hindi and most European languages) suggested to linguists of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries that contemporary Hindu Indians are descendants of primarily West Eurasians who migrated from Europe, the Near East, Anatolia, and the Caucasus 3000–8000 years ago (Poliakov 1974; Renfrew 1989a,b). These nomadic migrants may have consolidated their power by admixing with native Dravidic-speaking (e.g., Telugu) proto-Asian populations who controlled regional access to land, labor, and resources (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994), and subsequently established the Hindu caste hierarchy to legitimize and maintain this power (Poliakov 1974; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).

It is plausible that these West Eurasian immigrants also appointed themselves to predominantly castes of higher rank. However, archaeological evidence of the diffusion of material culture from Western Eurasia into India has been limited (Shaffer 1982). Therefore, information on the genetic relationships of Indians to Europeans and Asians could contribute substantially to understanding the origins of Indian populations.

Previous genetic studies of Indian castes have failed to achieve a consensus on Indian origins and affinities. Various results have supported closer affinity of Indian castes either with Europeans or with Asians, and several factors underlie this inconsistency. First, erratic or limited sampling of populations has limited inferences about the relationships between caste and continental populations (i.e., Africans, Asians, Europeans). These relationships are further confounded by the wide geographic dispersal of caste populations.

Genetic affinities among caste populations are, in part, inversely correlated with the geographic distance between them (Malhotra and Vasulu 1993), and it is likely that affinities between caste and continental populations are also geographically dependent (e.g., different between North and South Indian caste populations). Second, it has been suggested that castes of different rank may have originated from or admixed with different continental groups (Majumder and Mukherjee 1993).

Third, the size of caste populations varies widely, and the effects of genetic drift on some small, geographically isolated castes may have been substantial. Fourth, most of the polymorphisms assayed over the last 30 years are indirect measurements of genetic variation (e.g., ABO typing), have been sampled from only a few loci, and may not be selectively neutral. Finally, only rarely have systematic comparisons been made with continental populations using a large, uniform set of DNA polymorphisms (Majumder 1999).

To investigate the origin of contemporary castes, we compared the genetic affinities of caste populations of differing rank (i.e., upper, middle, and lower) to worldwide populations. We analyzed mtDNA (hypervariable region 1 [HVR1] sequence and 14 restriction-site polymorphisms [RSPs]), Y-chromosome (5 short-tandem repeats [STRs] and 20 biallelic polymorphisms), and autosomal (1 LINE-1 and 39 Alu inserts) variation in ∼265 males from eight different Telugu-speaking caste populations from the state of Andhra Pradesh in South India (Bamshad et al. 1998).

Comparisons were made to ∼400 individuals from tribal and Hindi-speaking caste and populations distributed across the Indian subcontinent (Mountain et al. 1995; Kivisild et al. 1999) and to ∼350 Africans, Asians, and Europeans (Jorde et al. 1995, 2000; Seielstad et al. 1999).

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations

Also see this:

Pre-Caucasoid and Caucasoid genetic features of the Indian population, revealed by mtDNA polymorphisms.

Pre-Caucasoid and Caucasoid genetic features of the Indian population, revealed by mtDNA polymorphisms.



Now may I humbly ask your educational qualification and whether you have published any paper in any international journal supporting your argument?

I want to see where Bamshad said upper caste Indian men looked more caucasoid than Indian females. :lol: He said Indian Y chromosomes came from indo europeans from western eurasia, while mtdna was from native asians. Nothing was said about physical looks.

Note he said "They purportedly admixed with or displaced indigenous Dravidic-speaking populations. "

Is asian a race? Do tamils look like Thai, do negritos look like Chinese? Do you know negritos are genetically closer to east asians than africans despite looking like pygmies?
 
I want to see where Bamshad said upper caste Indian men looked more caucasoid than Indian females. :lol:

Did you read the post properly?

Indo European means Caucasoid and when he said "for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians" and "For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians" he meant what Madhusree said.

Is asian a race? Do tamils look like Thai, do negritos look like Chinese? Do you know negritos are genetically closer to east asians than africans despite looking like pygmies?

Now... you know what you are doing here. I have been gentle... but don't take me granted.
 
Did you read the post properly?

Indo European means Caucasoid and when he said "for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians" and "For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians" he meant what Madhusree said.

NO. He was not talking about physical looks. He is saying that the Y chrosomome in upper caste men is more similar to indo europeans than asians, and the mtdna in upper caste men and women is more similar to asians than indo europeans.

That means a ukrainian shares closer y chromosome to an upper class indian than an asian would. That has nothing to do with physical looks at all. y chromosomes make up les than 0.01% of your DNA.

its your autosomal DNA that determines physical looks like eye color, skull shape, skin color, and all the others.

If your paternal great great great great great grandfather was a sub saharan african, it would not make any difference in your looks, only thing that would be different was a Y chromosome.
 
NO. He was not talking about physical looks. He is saying that the Y chrosomome in upper caste men is more similar to indo europeans than asians, and the mtdna in upper caste men and women is more similar to asians than indo europeans.

That means a ukrainian shares closer y chromosome to an upper class indian than an asian would. That has nothing to do with physical looks at all. y chromosomes make up les than 0.01% of your DNA.

its your autosomal DNA that determines physical looks like eye color, skull shape, skin color, and all the others.

If your paternal great great great great great grandfather was a sub saharan african, it would not make any difference in your looks, only thing that would be different was a Y chromosome.

You have no idea what happened in India after the Aryan invasion.

Suppose I am a Negroid and married a Caucasoid girl. Now what if I marry my own daughter and my after generation continues this practice. My Y DNA will be stuck while my wife's mtDNA will be diffused.

You have zero knowledge about India and Indian caste system.

Brahma is said to have the father of all Aryans. How and why?

Hindu Rites, Rituals, Customs and Traditions: A to Z on the Hindu Way of Life
By Prem P. Bhalla, page 26

2njiwsj.png


Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Puranas, Volume 1
By Swami Parmeshwaranand, page 244

2jecm7a.png


I suggest you to see the award winning most realistic and most controversial Hindi film, Matrubhoomi

matrubhoomi.jpg


You problem is that you have zero idea about the world. You don't know there are some rituals in some societies where fathers marry their daughters.

You also made mistake by comparing what happened in India and what happened in Turkey.


You first read about Hinduism, watch the real fact based movie I just suggested, and then we will talk and you will understand.
 
Matrubhoomi_poster.jpg


Matrubhoomi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is so far the best realistic film India has ever produced. Whoever understands the philosophy of this film understands Indian society.

These are the awards this masterpiece has received.

FIPRESCI Award in Parallel Section at the Venice Film Festival 2003
Audience Award for Best Film at the Kozlin Film Festival 2003, Poland
Audience Award for Best Foreign Film at Thessaloniki Film Festival, 2003
Nominated for Golden Alexander (Best Film) at Thessaloniki Film Festival, 2003
Audience Award for Best Film at River to River. Florence Indian Film Festival, 2003
 
speaking about rituals......ancient greeks followed the "12 days mourning" rituals 3000 years back when troy happened.....which we follow even now.....just wanted to add something....u guys can continue with ur stuff :D
 
Biography & Contact

So if I get a degree in biology, can I blather on about quantum physics?
You do know some Biologist use Physics theories for something or another....esp mathematical theories...esp for prediction...


If an Arab moved to China hundreds of years ago, his descendants in the direct male line now will have Y chrosome Haplogroup J1 or some other Arab haplogroup, but they will look entirely Chinese because of racial mixing. Get it? Almost his entire autosomal DNA will match other Chinese.
Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups Do Not Play a Role in the Variable Phenotypic Presentation of the A3243G Mutation

Well depends how dominant the Chinese phenotype are...
 
You have no idea what happened in India after the Aryan invasion.

Suppose I am a Negroid and married a Caucasoid girl. Now what if I marry my own daughter and my after generation continues this practice. My Y DNA will be stuck while my wife's mtDNA will be diffused.

You have zero knowledge about India and Indian caste system.

Brahma is said to have the father of all Aryans. How and why?

Hindu Rites, Rituals, Customs and Traditions: A to Z on the Hindu Way of Life
By Prem P. Bhalla, page 26

2njiwsj.png


Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Puranas, Volume 1
By Swami Parmeshwaranand, page 244

2jecm7a.png


I suggest you to see the award winning most realistic and most controversial Hindi film, Matrubhoomi

matrubhoomi.jpg


You problem is that you have zero idea about the world. You don't know there are some rituals in some societies where fathers marry their daughters.

You also made mistake by comparing what happened in India and what happened in Turkey.


You first read about Hinduism, watch the real fact based movie I just suggested, and then we will talk and you will understand.

Long term inbreeding and incest especially parent-children incest, will lead to the extinction of the population...

PLOS ONE: The Role of Inbreeding in the Extinction of a European Royal Dynasty

Incest leaves bumblebees facing threat of extinction - UK - The Scotsman

Indian tigers face extinction due to inbreeding and 'lack of genetic diversity' - Asia - World - The Independent

http://parkinson.cos.ucf.edu/Courses/PCB5556C/pdf/Frankham_98.pdf

Incest leaves bumblebees facing threat of extinction - UK - The Scotsman
 

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