Xinjiang Province: News & Discussions

[Genesis]

Before the industrialisation, European men wore long hair like this:

Due to the industrialisation long hair was not only out of fashion but dangerous when working in the factories. Fashion also had to change and adapt to the new and fast machines to avoid accidents. Short hairstyle for men has nothing to do for being western but rather a technological evolution demanded this.

That's what I'm saying stop reliving past glories. It doesn't exist anymore. Look to the future. I'm against the idea that the Europeans forced their style and life on the rest. The European didn't do it, progress did. I though Muslims should be the ones to know this the most seeing as how China was only humiliated, but the middle east was their plaything.

Also a tad off topic, I watched a video on western tourists that said that Lhasa was too developed now and that he didn't see the things he wanted. Does do Tibetans know this? You are a entertainment for the west, not Allies.

The sooner the Muslim in China adapt a Chinese way of life, the faster they will become richer. They say the best jobs don't go to them, that's because you would damage the business and image if they hired you as you are.

 

[Developereo]

Don't make Xinjiang a Han vs Muslim issue.

I know that many Muslim groups in China have no problem with Han or vice versa. The issue with Uighurs is more complex than just religion; it involves ethnicity, culture, etc.

The City of Yining banning certain Islamic practices was a very stupid move because it turns the conflict into a religious conflict and plays straight into the hands of extremists.

What kind of actions do you mean?

The Uighurs don't have any voice in the Chinese media to present their side of the story. I agree that they should not seek secession, but their legitimate concerns about discrimination and cultural encroachment should be given due consideration instead of being brushed under the carpet.

Right now, it seems the Chinese media narrative is one-sided.

And you know what, China government are even exerting more tolerant laws on minorities and that is stupid since no criminals will feel grateful and this can only raise ethnic hatred.

I don't know how much you guys get to hear the Uighur side of the story, but we have seen documentaries which show the systematic erosion of Uighur property and rights in Xinjiang.

Do you know that Uighurs are forced to move out of their lands, their homes demolished, and they are required to move into apartment buildings? Sounds great and the government can claim that Uighurs are getting "free apartments", except that these "new" apartment buildings are so shoddily constructed by cheap contractors that paint and plaster is peeling off the "brand new" apartments before people even move in. Some of them look downright dangerous and unsafe.

In the Qing dynasty men had long hair. [...] military

The military is a closed system which has strict rules of conduct. Anybody joining the military agrees to abide by those rules. The discussion here is about ordinary civilians and their right to personal freedom.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

I know where you are coming from, most Pakistani's criticised French ban on veil basically for three reasons

1 - France claims to be a free, democratic, and secular society (China is not considered a free and democratic country by western standards) hence a ban on veil in France (or any other western country) is not comparable to a ban in China

China is not contesting for a certificate for secularism against west nor the west is all honey and milk. if west has some hypocritic law you can call it hypocrisy from their part, but just because China has not made any tall claims doesn't mean if they do wrong, that doesn't become wrong because they don't claim to be doing right.Chinese Muslims and French Muslims suffered from same law(at least the French cited security concerns also ) but you criticise the ban in France not in China is your hypocrisy nothing else.

2 - France banned Muslim veil because according to them it sort of creates differentiation on religious basis, but so does a Christian nuns dress including her head scarf, hence just banning the Muslim Veil is discrimination

France did not prevent Muslim women from wearing a vail which is mandatory in Islam. once again if they did a hypocrisy you can criticise them for both, 1. hypocrisy/discrimination 2.restricting the religious/fashion freedom but you must criticise China for the second offense if you are not a hypocrite like French.

3 - In case of France, US and other western countries were not exploiting Muslim population or their dress code to create turmoil in the state, but in case of China the same western countries who are spreading poisonous propaganda against Muslims, are exploiting the same Muslim religion by supporting, funding, training and sending terrorists in to China (Xinjiang) to create problems for China, to create problems in China-Pakistan relationship and at the same time spreading more propaganda against Islamic terrorism, which when they support such as in Libya and Syria, is termed as freedom fighters, when it goes against them as in Afghanistan is termed as terrorism.

it is just an allegation that us send terrorists to China, you can criticise US For that also, I will also do if I get satisfactory evidence that US is doing it. But issue here is a law made by Chinese, not by US, which prevents it's own peoples religious and fashion freedom, if you believe the law indeed restricts religious freedom, you must criticise China for implementing the law, you can call France hypocrite, terror sponsor or what ever, we can talk about it in relevant thread in detail, but what ever France claim or did, or China did not claim, doesn't make a wrong law become right.

So If you started this thread to see Pakistani members reaction to a problem (to which we reacted vehemently in case of France), you will not see such reaction, because its not the action it self, its the motive behind it that we criticised.

so the action has no relevance despite the fact that it prevents Islamic religious freedom ? btw motivation is same in both cases, only Franch claim of secular make it guilty of double standard also, which is absent in the case of China, but China is still guilty of restricting religious and fashion freedom, which you refuse to criticise because of your hypocrisy.

It's not like you Indians who talk about freedom of expression and press when western media humiliates Islamic figures, but goes crazy when Australian company prints Hindu goddess pictures on swim suits.

we can discuss it that also in relevant thread, if we do discuss everything here, we will deviate from the topic.look at honest comments of muse, safriz,developro etc they criticise and appreciate things on their merits not by looking at who did it(except indo pak issues some times, but we are all same at it, at one point or other)even Zarvan I think is consistent in criticising things, people on their merit which he think is wrong, I don't agree with his opinion but at least he is consistent.

At the end of the day only one question remains from my side, is the Chinese law bad and wrong which prevents religious and fashion and personal freedom ? you can continue to accuse France and west for every things view do, everything they claim, every terror they sponsor, in fact i don't mind in this thread if you tell me every thing they do is wrong and hypocritic but I need your straight answer for the question I asked.

 

[zxmint]

I know that many Muslim groups in China have no problem with Han or vice versa. The issue with Uighurs is more complex than just religion; it involves ethnicity, culture, etc. Also, the article mentioned the City banning certain religious practices which brought the focus onto religion.



The Uighurs don't have any voice in the Chinese media to present their side of the story. I agree that they should not seek secession, but their legitimate concerns about discrimination and cultural encroachment should be given due consideration instead of being brushed under the carpet.

Right now, it seems the Chinese media narrative is one-sided.



I don't know how much you guys get to hear the Uighur side of the story, but we have seen documentaries which show the systematic erosion of Uighur property and rights in Xinjiang.

Do you know that Uighurs are forced to move out of their lands, their homes demolished, and they are required to move into apartment buildings? Sounds great and the government can claim that Uighurs are getting "free apartments", except that these "new" apartment buildings are so shoddily constructed by cheap contractors that paint and plaster is peeling off the "brand new" apartments before people even move in. Some of them look downright dangerous and unsafe.



The military is a closed system which has strict rules of conduct. Anybody joining the military agrees to abide by those rules. The discussion here is about ordinary civilians and their right to personal freedom.

They are totally bullshiting lies. You could visit Xinjiang if you have chances and you will get to know the fact. I am a Chinese and I visit Xinjiang several times so I do not need to judge this issue by any kinds of "story". Xinjiang is much more peaceful when China government took strict and even ruthless policy in 50's, while the situation turn bad since some leaders' wrong policies which even show tolerance to Uighur murderers and terrorists.

And I suggest Pakistanis be prudent on this China's domestic issue. It is the core interest of China and any kind of foreign interference is unacceptable and unforgivable. There are a lot of Muslims in China while those small group of people who against China government are not bullied minorities but separatists and terrorists. Your own country is facing similar problems which are far more serious than ours so we'd better come to consensus on it in order to strengthen our cooperation and friendship.

 

[Developereo]

And I suggest Pakistanis be prudent on this China's domestic issue.

This has nothing to do with Pakistan or Australia. On this forum, we discuss human rights issues in many countries, including those in the West, Middle East, South Asia, Africa, etc. We discuss human rights abuses in Pakistan and India all the time. No one is singling out China and we are all agreed that separatism and terrorism are wrong. We are also agreed that this is not a religious conflict of China v/s Muslims, since many Muslim groups are fine within China.

However, for this conflict to resolve peacefully, it will take effort from both sides to stop seeing it as a Uighur-Han issue and to see it as a legitimate issue raised be fellow Chinese citizens.

For Uighurs, they have to renounce separatism and accept being part of China and Chinese culture without losing their own ethnic identity. For mainstream Chinese, they have to get past the demonization of Uighurs which seems so prevalent, and to accept that there are some legitimate issues being raised by their fellow citizens.

 

[zxmint]

This has nothing to do with Pakistan or Australia. On this forum, we discuss human rights issues in many countries, including those in the West, Middle East, South Asia, Africa, etc. We discuss human rights abuses in Pakistan and India all the time. No one is singling out China and we are all agreed that separatism and terrorism are wrong. We are also agreed that this is not a religious conflict of China v/s Muslims, since many Muslim groups are fine within China.

However, for this conflict to resolve peacefully, it will take effort from both sides to stop seeing it as a Uighur-Han issue and to see it as a legitimate issue raised be fellow Chinese citizens.

For Uighurs, they have to renounce separatism and accept being part of China and Chinese culture without losing their own ethnic identity. For mainstream Chinese, they have to get past the demonization of Uighurs which seems so prevalent, and to accept that there are some legitimate issues being raised by their fellow citizens.

Since hundreds of innocent citizens got killed in '7.5' event in 2009, at least it takes time for Han people to get a more friendly view on Uighur people. It was made by thousands of riots. Although a lot of the criminals were just incited by some real terrorists, this slaughter left very bad influence on the relationship between two peoples. It is unfair to blame China demonize Uighur, which is obviously untrue. No normal government in this world would demonize its own people. And there has always been foreign interference force behind those separatists so it is more like an international wrestle rather than a domestic ethnic or religious problem.

 

[zxmint]

This has nothing to do with Pakistan or Australia. On this forum, we discuss human rights issues in many countries, including those in the West, Middle East, South Asia, Africa, etc. We discuss human rights abuses in Pakistan and India all the time. No one is singling out China and we are all agreed that separatism and terrorism are wrong. We are also agreed that this is not a religious conflict of China v/s Muslims, since many Muslim groups are fine within China.

However, for this conflict to resolve peacefully, it will take effort from both sides to stop seeing it as a Uighur-Han issue and to see it as a legitimate issue raised be fellow Chinese citizens.

For Uighurs, they have to renounce separatism and accept being part of China and Chinese culture without losing their own ethnic identity. For mainstream Chinese, they have to get past the demonization of Uighurs which seems so prevalent, and to accept that there are some legitimate issues being raised by their fellow citizens.

And I think you might be a westerner inside. I really feel disgusted to hear any more hypocritical human rights talk from any western voice. Look at Mid-east, North Africa, look at Libya, Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. What has westerners brought to these countries? Human rights???? It is the biggest lie in human beings' history. Westerners have long proved they don't care other countries people's life and death at all. Human rights are just their swords.

 

[HongWu]

You have a US flag in your signatures but what you are saying goes entirely against the constitution of the United States and against the basic democratic process.

First, the US isn't China. No state is 'held by force' that you are 'freeing up' Texas and Hawaii. Its silly to say that. Second, just because you or a few others wish, no state can be 'freed' like this. In fact no state is in a contract by force either. The US's origins came from WE THE PEOPLE not through a government that puts a ban on its citizens using the Internet!!

WE the PEOPLE have the right to do what we want to, to have a state as a republic or not. So trust me, when We the PEOPLE will want Texas or Hawaii to be a separate republic, it will happen. That's the main difference between the United States and China, Syria, India, etc. WE the PEOPLE decide what to do, not a few of us as a small group, not the government and not the military. That's democracy. Now if you are going to silly question the American democracy, please take a look at the most recent US presidential elections. You'll find your answer there about 'We the People'!

I guess they don't teach you the American civil war

 

[Developereo]

Since hundreds of innocent citizens got killed in '7.5' event in 2009, at least it takes time for Han people to get a more friendly view on Uighur people. It was made by thousands of riots. Although a lot of the criminals were just incited by some real terrorists, this slaughter left very bad influence on the relationship between people of two ethnics. It is unfair to blame China demonize Uighur, which is obviously untrue. No normal government in this world would demonize its own people. And there has always been foreign interference force behind those separatists so it is more like an international wrestle rather than a domestic ethnic or religious problem.

Both your points are valid.

The (mental) wounds left by the Uighur militants' violence will take time to heal. The Chinese media can help by improving relations between communities.

Foreign agents will use this to create trouble. China should deal forcefully and decisively with all foreign troublemakers.

 

[shuttler]

If often wonder why China doesn't go the assassianation route. Sure is painful in the short run, but most people have short memory and forget it about it after a few years. I mean look at the US. After annexing Hawaii and going to war constantly for the last 70 years, people still gush about supposed freedom and human rights. China is not dirty enough.

They need to be more like Americans and Israelis. If these people were on the opposite end of American's interest supporting separatism and terrorism, they would been killed by now.

us, israel and russia are experts in assasinations

Instead of putting the trouble makers behind bars, China has all of them exiled

the 2 figure heads are fairly old:

R Kadeer @ 67
D Lama @78

They are not too far away from their natural demise.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

perhaps muslims should be allowed to keep their tradition n China. However China isn't muslim and cling to some old tradition will just slow progress. Muslims today are not in the center of things and it is because of tradition.
.

I don't agree with bold part

what progress has anything to do with wearing certain clothes or keeping beard?

newton look weird according to modern standard or fashion

but his thinking was progressive and he was intelligent irrespective of his look or what he was wearing..so dress or beard are irrelevant as long as progress concern

 

[longyi]

Let's face it most of the infos we got concerning the Uyghur oppressions at home are either originated from the Voice of America or the oversea Uyghur separatists communities and both of them have axes to grind. Until we know the real situations on the ground we shouldn't so hastily to judge them as religious surppression.

Going by the fact that China is a secular state and has her own ideologies of governing religious groups in China must work within the framework of the government/society, otherwise they have no chance to survive. These religious militants are not only hurting themselves and their religions they are hurting others as well. If that's their true intention then they deserve to be taken out of the mainstream society.

 

[Genesis]

I'm not trying to disrespect Muslims, in fact I really love the middle east style architecture. However Newton was wearing that because it was fashion, and it was 1600s. Today, Muslim dress is not the norm in much of the world and it's religious restrictions unfortunately hinder progress, don't take my word for it, but look who's invading who and who's asking who for help in the middle east.

The uyghurs are Turks and if history is any indication, they can have a huge contribution to China and thus establish their place in China. No matter if they want to admit it or not, Being inside China gives them more benefits IF they want to.

The minorities in China are not treated badly, powerless people are. However it is this cruel reality that has driven China kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Look at Tiananmen Square incident and the effect it had on policies, if not for Deng XiaoPing, to see that how much some people wanted China to remain the same.

There are great examples of minorities in China making it big, just like their Han counter parts, as long as they adopt the "same" customs as the Han chinese. (I use quotes, cause it's not really han customs, it's a way of life derived from necessity)

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

I'm not trying to disrespect Muslims, in fact I really love the middle east style architecture. However Newton was wearing that because it was fashion, and it was 1600s. Today, Muslim dress is not the norm in much of the world and it's religious restrictions unfortunately hinder progress, don't take my word for it, but look who's invading who and who's asking who for help in the middle east.

I never said that you are disrespecting Muslims. I was trying to find the reasons why you relate the progress of a society with their dress code or with beard or mustache. If Muslim countries got declined today then it was not because of beard or because of wearing certain clothes. when they were on peak then they were wearing same stuffs

Progress of any society never depend on what they wear/eat or whether they keep beard or are clean shaved. Newton would remain progressive or intelligent even if he was wearing turban or had short hair or even bald

 

[Da-Bang]

Apparently Muslim lifestyles and cistoms are hindrance to progress.

Muslims should give up arab tribal ccustoms and. maybe bring out an updated version of quran to fit into han customs