Would 122mm BM-21 cluster DPICM be useful for Pakistan?

[Fawadqasim1]

Why is BM-21 not useful?

It is useful in its own role.

1) That's 40 rockets launched in a matter a few minutes. You also have to count reloading time, which affects the amount of total ammo spent in a given amount of time.

Given 5 minutes, who would be able to fire more ammo, a MRL or artillery??

It takes a long time to reload a MRLS. The answer is artillery because while they may have longer rate of fire against the BM-21....they make up for it in reloading time, which is insignificant.

2) Yes, unguided munitions are cheaper but smart munitions can be made cheaper through cheaper/better/widespread tech and it is being worked upon.

3) Cluster bombs are used to destroy buildings in which rebels/terrorists might be hiding. You won't be dropping cluster bombs in a real war with a near-peer or peer adversary since dropping cluster bombs demands total air dominance.

4) In a real war with equal or near equally powerful rivals, smart munitions will be used. US doesn't use them because they don't need to, not because they can't afford to. I don't know if you know this but the budget of the Pentagon was almost $ 1 T this (or maybe last) year. It has mostly risen for the past few decades. Nothing is too expensive for them.

When they can fire 30+ Tomahawks (valued at million or more $ each) at a Syrian Airbase where they didn't even achieve their goal, I'm sure they can spend a few more $$ on smart weapons.

5) CM's are a lot more expensive than guided and smart arty pieces like I explained in #4. You only use them for high value targets. CM's can't be used as SAM's either like I explained earlier or used as counter fire to destroy enemy rounds in the air before they reach their targets.

6) In conclusion, guided/smart weapons are the future, they'll have longer ranges too. For example, the BM-21 in your video only has a 45 km range, Pakistani MRLS have even lesser range.

The US's new Arty Project (explained further up in the thread) can reach upto and beyond 70 km and it's gps guided. It'll destroy any MRLS before they can even get in range to fire back.

It will be very hard for an affordable and portable artillery piece to out range mlrs.

 

[UmairNawaz]

1) That's 40 rockets launched in a matter a few minutes. You also have to count reloading time, which affects the amount of total ammo spent in a given amount of time.

Given 5 minutes, who would be able to fire more ammo, a MRL or artillery??

It takes a long time to reload a MRLS. The answer is artillery because while they may have longer rate of fire against the BM-21....they make up for it in reloading time, which is insignificant.

2) Yes, unguided munitions are cheaper but smart munitions can be made cheaper through cheaper/better/widespread tech and it is being worked upon.

3) Cluster bombs are used to destroy buildings in which rebels/terrorists might be hiding. You won't be dropping cluster bombs in a real war with a near-peer or peer adversary since dropping cluster bombs demands total air dominance.

4) In a real war with equal or near equally powerful rivals, smart munitions will be used. US doesn't use them because they don't need to, not because they can't afford to. I don't know if you know this but the budget of the Pentagon was almost $ 1 T this (or maybe last) year. It has mostly risen for the past few decades. Nothing is too expensive for them.

When they can fire 30+ Tomahawks (valued at million or more $ each) at a Syrian Airbase where they didn't even achieve their goal, I'm sure they can spend a few more $$ on smart weapons.

5) CM's are a lot more expensive than guided and smart arty pieces like I explained in #4. You only use them for high value targets. CM's can't be used as SAM's either like I explained earlier or used as counter fire to destroy enemy rounds in the air before they reach their targets.

6) In conclusion, guided/smart weapons are the future, they'll have longer ranges too. For example, the BM-21 in your video only has a 45 km range, Pakistani MRLS have even lesser range.

The US's new Arty Project (explained further up in the thread) can reach upto and beyond 70 km and it's gps guided. It'll destroy any MRLS before they can even get in range to fire back.

Idk man... You have to debate this with someone who is actually educated... Many military experts will diagree with you on a lot of things.

 

[Itachi]

It is useful in its own role.


It will be very hard for an affordable and portable artillery piece to out range mlrs.

Not really, like I said in another post in the thread, the US is already working on a next gen artillery project that can hit up to and past 70 km with gps guidance. MRLS are the ways of the old. You can't do sustained fire with them. After the magazine has been spent, it takes considerable time to rearm them.

Idk man... You have to debate this with someone who is actually educated... Many military experts will diagree with you on a lot of things.

And I expect that, just like many will agree with me.

Not everyone will agree with my or your statements.

 

[Imran Khan]

wow i have seen pakistani KRL-122 MLRS firing cluster rounds and i have that video too some 20 years ago. its in one of recorded VCR cassette .but they said these are mines .

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Not really, like I said in another post in the thread, the US is already working on a next gen artillery project that can hit up to and past 70 km with gps guidance. MRLS are the ways of the old. You can't do sustained fire with them. After the magazine has been spent, it takes considerable time to rearm them.



And I expect that, just like many will agree with me.

Not everyone will agree with my or your statements.

And what about modern mlrs development are you following it both have their advantages and disadvantages and their roles in various scenarios and circumstances there for most of the armies use a mix of both so

 

[TeesraIndiotHunter]

Pakistan will need to accurately drop 40,0000 MRLs/Cluster Bombs/High-explosive munitions on 20 indian air bases across Kashmir and surrounding region to render them ineffective for significant period, and then launch a brute invasion backed by air power to cut-off indian access to Kashmir.

It is easier said than done. Achieving it with surprise factor would be the biggest challenge, as preparation for such large military operation can not be hidden from the enemy. War-gaming such scenario will also raise lots of eyebrows in the region and beyond.

Aggressive diplomacy, brinkmanship, coordinated actions with allies (especially China), and increased pressure on LoC will be best suited for building up pressure on india.

Meanwhile, a massive local Kashmiri response after curfew is lifted would be the primary highlight for further internationalization of Kashmir issues.

Under such scenario, indian courts might stop 370 revocation for a while to release some pressure off of india.

 

[Itachi]

And what about modern mlrs development are you following it both have their advantages and disadvantages and their roles in various scenarios and circumstances there for most of the armies use a mix of both so

Yes, I am but I think they'll become obsolete once railguns and longer range artillery come onto the field.

LRAP: 190 km.....not even a railgun but still, look at the range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Land_Attack_Projectile

ERGM: 110 km...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Range_Guided_Munition

These things outrange modern MRLS (except for the A300 one) by a significant range. Pakistani Yarmuk can only fire upto 45 km. Plus, in the future, Railguns will have anywhere from 100-1000 km ranges. Far exceeding those of MRLS and with more RPM and faster reloading and more/cheaper ammo.

But yes, for now, some MRLS systems (longer range ones) have their uses.

Pakistan will need to accurately drop 40,0000 MRLs/Cluster Bombs/High-explosive munitions on 20 indian air bases across Kashmir and surrounding region to render them ineffective for significant period

Are you trying to kill all the animals, insects, molecule and atom or just the bases??? That's a really big overkill...

 

[Alpha BeeTee]

I have been thinking that since when did Pakistan Army assume the offensive role w.r.t India?

We have been a defensive armed force for decades and it's almost official. Pak army hasn't been built to attack deep inside India nor has it evolved to perform such ops. Our entire doctrine is defense. The only time the word 'offense' even appears in when we are talking about offensive defense.

IMHO, these discussions gaming Pak incursion inside India are useless and a waste of time and intellectual capital.

We are the same nation which instantly drops the N-word as soon as there is any signalling of threat from India. And now we're talking invading Indian land as if there has been a drastic capability increase overnight.

I'm sure there are no minutes of meeting for these type of discussions in GHQ as the jairnails fully realise that attacking India is not an option. Not at all. At best they'll be looking at ways to respond to Indian aggression if India attacks Azad Kashmir, which is again very unlikely.

Why is every other thread on PDF about war gaming an attack on India right now? This is beyond me.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

I have been thinking that since when did Pakistan Army assume the offensive role w.r.t India?

We have been a defensive armed force for decades and it's almost official. Pak army hasn't been built to attack deep inside India nor has it evolved to perform such ops. Our entire doctrine is defense. The only time the word 'offense' even appears in when we are talking about offensive defense.

IMHO, these discussions gaming Pak incursion inside India are useless and a waste of time and intellectual capital.

We are the same nation which instantly drops the N-word as soon as there is any signalling of threat from India. And now we're talking invading Indian land as if there has been a drastic capability increase overnight.

I'm sure there are no minutes of meeting for these type of discussions in GHQ as the jairnails fully realise that attacking India is not an option. Not at all. At best they'll be looking at ways to respond to Indian aggression if India attacks Azad Kashmir, which is again very unlikely.

Why is every other thread on PDF about war gaming an attack on India right now? This is beyond me.

Emotional response we human beings are also emotional beings you may be an exception sir .

Pakistan will need to accurately drop 40,0000 MRLs/Cluster Bombs/High-explosive munitions on 20 indian air bases across Kashmir and surrounding region to render them ineffective for significant period, and then launch a brute invasion backed by air power to cut-off indian access to Kashmir.

It is easier said than done. Achieving it with surprise factor would be the biggest challenge, as preparation for such large military operation can not be hidden from the enemy. War-gaming such scenario will also raise lots of eyebrows in the region and beyond.

Aggressive diplomacy, brinkmanship, coordinated actions with allies (especially China), and increased pressure on LoC will be best suited for building up pressure on india.

Meanwhile, a massive local Kashmiri response after curfew is lifted would be the primary highlight for further internationalization of Kashmir issues.

Under such scenario, indian courts might stop 370 revocation for a while to release some pressure off of india.

I absolutely agree with you sir but we I think we're talking about Pakistan's response in 27fab type situation not an invasion e.g if India fires a few brahmos
Missiles at skardu air Base etc

 

[WarKa DaNG]

How about cruise or ballistic missile with cluster munition