Words that BYTE

[SQ8]

While I have been away I noticed some contentious issue that developed recently on the forum due to a member who at least in my opinion was very valuable and knowledge but then posted a VERY objectionable post which led to a lot of backlash with all sorts of fiery angst.

But this is not exactly about that.
More so, this is about how far does one take the words and emotions online into the effectiveness of our daily lives, whether disagreement is worth keyboard smashing when it comes to contentious issues and whether it makes sense for people to people dialogue between such opposing sides of Pakistan and India, Indian Hindus and Pakistani Muslims, Arabs and Iranians, political opponents such as PTI supporters and Noon Leagers or religious opponents like Droid users and Apple loyalists.

So lets really look at it from a perspective of the positives and negatives of the most key engagement here.. Indians and Pakistanis.

What are really the advantages of having Indian members on this forum that is based around the military and safety of Pakistan, allowing them membership and then debating issues with them?
What are the disadvantages (leaving aside trolls)?.. more propogation of hatred?

Not just advantages or disadvantages to Pakistanis and their future ideals and thoughts but also to Indians too. There is a human element to both and it needs to be looked at.

Perhaps if a vote or majority direction is taken then a petition can be made to push whatever proposal it is. Be it a change in attitudes of both engaging parties or maybe a complete cessation of Indian membership to this forum; leaving all actual discussion to hopefully less “defense” inclined platforms?? Would it make sense to have a platform dedicated to such engagements with a less “hostile” look?

Anything goes but my hope is to see what leads to the advantage of all members and then to the platforms focus and quality.
Im keeping the mods out of this to let this be an honest roll call of whether it is worth to engage what is essentially an enemy state(for both sides) on a platform essentially focusing on the capability to kill the other.

@Moonlight @araz @Indus Pakistan @django @CriticalThought @Rafi @Tps43 @Joe Shearer @Nilgiri @Thorough Pro @HRK

And please Tag away.

 

[Awi]

While I have been away I noticed some contentious issue that developed recently on the forum due to a member who at least in my opinion was very valuable and knowledge but then posted a VERY objectionable post which led to a lot of backlash with all sorts of fiery angst.

But this is not exactly about that...............................
And please Tag away.

We understand the reason of this post but I don't think a complete cessation is needed or a good way to tackling such issues, what if a non Muslim user from Pakistan says something about Islam, or what if a Muslim member of the forum says something derogatory to a Pakistani non Muslim user? Indians are not all bad but they do bring some positive to the forum, and believe me if they leave we will lose some of the energy from within our own ranks , as a lot of our own users feed their knowledge and curiosity upon challenging Indians.

As being Muslims, we shouldn't think low of anyone, if we believe that Allah (SWT) created all human being and NOTHING Allah (SWT) created is without a reason, which I see here is that some times they do show us mirror and reality check is necessary for our own good health.

The user that created all this rift is a very senior and experienced person (judging by his posted content), but he said that he would deal with trolls like that, then i guess he himself said it that he isn't worthy of being TT, you wouldn't expect the president of a country (excluding Trump ) mocking someone and then telling the protocol team that hey stop that civilian he started it, or hey that's how i deal with mockers. As it's said an eye for an eye would leave the whole wold blind. There is a reason for the term being "mature" and a TT for sure is 1 step above mature, but @AUSTERLITZ for sure said it himself he will be mature when he chooses to be, stripping him off of his rank will be enough punishment, and enough to make him leave, his derogatory comments should be moderated with immediate effect as soon as Mods etc come to a decision.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Oscar has put up a very thoughtful proposition, that we should clearly think through the advantages and disadvantages, even the feasibility of a forum where defence is discussed between members of two nations that are not at peace with each other.

I believe that the logic of the argument hides a paradox; the difficulties arise not on defence related topics and threads but on social and political threads. Without commenting on the extreme opinions on the Pakistani side, it is a very clear thing that extremists among the Indians habitually concentrate on social and political threads; they are never there on the defence threads, not even by accident. Most of the disagreements and quarrels break out on those threads, too, and rarely, if ever, is there rancour or bitterness on defence threads.

If we are to respond to this initiative, I think it should be to segregate the two streams, even to split this forum into two, and to remove Indians from dual membership. We need be accepted into either the defence stream or into the social and political stream; there can be exceptions. The point is that some of us have always had an interest in the defence threads, and have also enjoyed the conversations there, and conversely have been dragged into social and political threads, and found full-scale communal riots going on over there.

If this is not a practical suggestion, then allow Indians into one or the other stream, not into both. To be honest, that would be a crippled choice, crippled by a clumsy compromise, one that satisfies neither the objective of seeking a broader-based discussion than the one confined to a single nationality nor the objective of seeking a more polite discussion with very strict rules regarding references to religion to each other's national characteristics, actual or mythical, or to anybody's personal integrity.

Along with whatever is decided, there is the question of evenhandedness. But that is a question for another post. Suffice it to say that we need to take one giant step and, if Indians are allowed at all, they should be allowed with the same responsibilities and privileges accorded to members of all other nationalities. They should be eligible for holding Moderator positions and policing their own members, disciplining them when needed, defending them when needed.

In a specific response to Oscar's note, selective membership and self-regulation may work better than completely segregating the two nationalities.

 

[Tps43]

@Mentee @Signalian @PakSword @Dawood Ibrahim @Hell hound @The Sandman @RealNapster @Starlord

 

[Sine Nomine]

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
I have been visiter of this forum for long may be from 2007,but joined it in 2014.
With passage of time,i learned that my anger and trolling isn't going to do anything, about the matter to which i am directing it.From that day i learned to speak in a matter in which i can contribute in a positive way or else keep shut.
There is a need for strict policing on this forum,especially against those who are trolling Professionals without even knowledge about the matter in hand.
Allowing people's from our arch enemy state participation on PDF is beauty of this forum,that should continue but Indian members should look and think into the way Indian Forums treat Pakistanis and Pakistan as a state.
But,
If one of TTA wasn't able to do anger management,then why he is a TTA?

 

[khansaheeb]

I think we should only keep the intelligent Indians on the forum and kick out all the nasty Indians, trolls and all, who support terrorism in Pakistan or anti-Pakistan activities. Is there a way of vetting them to ascertain that they are legitimately interested in defense matters and not just to instigate dispute and dissension?

PDF a should have time out option for the MODs to dampen any crude or heated exchanges. I don't think the 3 strikes thing is good. When our soldiers are being murdered and our country is being threatened, yes our emotions are going to rise and we may show uncontrollable anger by small trigger.

How about only allowing Indian members who have a Facebook or LinkedIn page?

 

[Nilgiri]

While I have been away I noticed some contentious issue that developed recently on the forum due to a member who at least in my opinion was very valuable and knowledge but then posted a VERY objectionable post which led to a lot of backlash with all sorts of fiery angst.

But this is not exactly about that.
More so, this is about how far does one take the words and emotions online into the effectiveness of our daily lives, whether disagreement is worth keyboard smashing when it comes to contentious issues and whether it makes sense for people to people dialogue between such opposing sides of Pakistan and India, Indian Hindus and Pakistani Muslims, Arabs and Iranians, political opponents such as PTI supporters and Noon Leagers or religious opponents like Droid users and Apple loyalists.

So lets really look at it from a perspective of the positives and negatives of the most key engagement here.. Indians and Pakistanis.

What are really the advantages of having Indian members on this forum that is based around the military and safety of Pakistan, allowing them membership and then debating issues with them?
What are the disadvantages (leaving aside trolls)?.. more propogation of hatred?

Not just advantages or disadvantages to Pakistanis and their future ideals and thoughts but also to Indians too. There is a human element to both and it needs to be looked at.

Perhaps if a vote or majority direction is taken then a petition can be made to push whatever proposal it is. Be it a change in attitudes of both engaging parties or maybe a complete cessation of Indian membership to this forum; leaving all actual discussion to hopefully less “defense” inclined platforms?? Would it make sense to have a platform dedicated to such engagements with a less “hostile” look?

Anything goes but my hope is to see what leads to the advantage of all members and then to the platforms focus and quality.
Im keeping the mods out of this to let this be an honest roll call of whether it is worth to engage what is essentially an enemy state(for both sides) on a platform essentially focusing on the capability to kill the other.

@Moonlight @araz @Indus Pakistan @django @CriticalThought @Rafi @Tps43 @Joe Shearer @Nilgiri @Thorough Pro @HRK

And please Tag away.

I think its worth having a place to talk (no matter how adversary your countries/identities might be to each other in real life outside here etc)....I think its great to have a place I can talk to ppl that dont think like me or agree with anything I have to say....and they can tell me why.

It looks like Austerlitz has been stipped of title and permabanned now anyway...so maybe ppl that left because of that will return.....but for future in mind:

Just need clear enforced uniform rules for all....can make those rules to be whatever you want, but the application should be 100%. As to what they should be....I'll refer ppl to my post here:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/good-bye-folks.595303/page-25#post-11081633

....I think the current system is fine (ppl have adjusted to it mostly, those that have left have left etc)...just have a zero tolerance attitude to religion talk (when its mocking...whichever religion it is...similar to family/personal attack stuff) from now on (which is a forum rule to begin with I suppose, but right now being interpreted/implemented at mod discretion, rather than being a more singular application).

Its a fine balance regarding what needs intervention and what doesn't (I don't envy the decision makers/implementers job)...since a forum is all about talking to begin with. I think banning an entire nationality won't achieve anything concrete (and will just reduce what ppl can learn/share in the end)...just be selective as you need to be....using some clear crystal enforced rules (as the owners/powers that be see fit). I for one would even go far as to suggest you appoint a dedicated mod for just cpl forum sections (indian defence subforum and central/south asia for example) who can maybe help spend more time focused solely on nipping all religion talk (esp mocking) in the bud for some length of time..and see if the quality of forum overall is improved. The real downstream hurt/bile (that gathers up big good names) should not even come into picture imo....its very preventable disease.

Just my 2 cents on it. @The Sandman @VCheng

 

[Sine Nomine]

....I think the current system is fine (ppl have adjusted to it mostly, those that have left have left etc)...just have a zero tolerance attitude to religion talk (when its mocking...whichever religion it is.

Religion should be banned on this forum,because it's not a religion preaching forum,where one can do his pulpitry.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

It's mostly because of the new generation of Pakistani kids that can't troll back. I've lit a fire under the *** of almost everyone on this forum and it's not hard to do. Imagine taking anything people online say seriously.

 

[Nilgiri]

Religion should be banned on this forum,because it's not a religion preaching forum,where one can do his pulpitry.

Yep personal faith stuff (essentially stuff you can not prove to anyone) should be not allowed...firstly its stuff you would never tell someone face to face in real life (90% of communication is not words at all to begin with for a reason). Stuff like religion, family...think about it....we love our parents and kids etc.....but can you prove a love like that to someone else?...should such pointless conversation be allowed given it always leads to the same pit of anger and despair (in many ways worse than telling someone they have no right to exist...is that they have existed badly and futile way)...same goes with faith. It is morally reprehensible stuff....whatever the direction and "stage" of the conversation and whoever instigated it (this is like asking let he who is without sin cast first stone).

In fact thats a good rule of thumb I think for this forum. If its not the sort of thing a decent person would tell someone else to their face in real life, it shouldn't be tolerated here. I would think people broadly know what a decent person is...even if they are not one themselves.

 

[padamchen]

Personally I think a lot if not most issues stem from young mods.

@Oscar

Please have mods of tenure or not below the age of 35 preferably.

It's very difficult for senior members to take young mods seriously ...

Cheers, Doc

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

@Oscar has put up a very thoughtful proposition, that we should clearly think through the advantages and disadvantages, even the feasibility of a forum where defence is discussed between members of two nations that are not at peace with each other.

I believe that the logic of the argument hides a paradox; the difficulties arise not on defence related topics and threads but on social and political threads. Without commenting on the extreme opinions on the Pakistani side, it is a very clear thing that extremists among the Indians habitually concentrate on social and political threads; they are never there on the defence threads, not even by accident. Most of the disagreements and quarrels break out on those threads, too, and rarely, if ever, is there rancour or bitterness on defence threads.

If we are to respond to this initiative, I think it should be to segregate the two streams, even to split this forum into two, and to remove Indians from dual membership. We need be accepted into either the defence stream or into the social and political stream; there can be exceptions. The point is that some of us have always had an interest in the defence threads, and have also enjoyed the conversations there, and conversely have been dragged into social and political threads, and found full-scale communal riots going on over there.

If this is not a practical suggestion, then allow Indians into one or the other stream, not into both. To be honest, that would be a crippled choice, crippled by a clumsy compromise, one that satisfies neither the objective of seeking a broader-based discussion than the one confined to a single nationality nor the objective of seeking a more polite discussion with very strict rules regarding references to religion to each other's national characteristics, actual or mythical, or to anybody's personal integrity.

Along with whatever is decided, there is the question of evenhandedness. But that is a question for another post. Suffice it to say that we need to take one giant step and, if Indians are allowed at all, they should be allowed with the same responsibilities and privileges accorded to members of all other nationalities. They should be eligible for holding Moderator positions and policing their own members, disciplining them when needed, defending them when needed.

In a specific response to Oscar's note, selective membership and self-regulation may work better than completely segregating the two nationalities.

If you think about it the idea of this very fourm, where to enemies mingle and discuss ways to kill each other is very sinister in nature. Yet we have members who look above all that and talk about light hearted things. This fourm is a contradiction a stroke of mad genius. For without the diversity this forum would merely be like reading the Sunday paper, no excitement no reason to keep coming back and reading the same news, over and over again. Regarding the issue of religious hate, well that is beyond our ability to control, yet. For no matter how much you think about it there is no possible solution that benefits both parties involved. I do believe that we will reach that day, where everyone chooses to accept each other for the way they are, but I hope when that day comes, that it isnt too late.
May the world have peace,

Personally I think a lot if not most issues stem from young mods.

@Oscar

Please have mods of tenure or not below the age of 35 preferably.

It's very difficult for senior members to take young mods seriously ...

Cheers, Doc

What is age? Its merely a number, for it is our deeds that determines the following we get. A person should be chosen by their deeds not their age.

 

[Joe Shearer]

If you think about it the idea of this very fourm, where to enemies mingle and discuss ways to kill each other is very sinister in nature. Yet we have members who look above all that and talk about light hearted things. This fourm is a contradiction a stroke of mad genius. For without the diversity this forum would merely be like reading the Sunday paper, no excitement no reason to keep coming back and reading the same news, over and over again. Regarding the issue of religious hate, well that is beyond our ability to control, yet. For no matter how much you think about it there is no possible solution that benefits both parties involved. I do believe that we will reach that day, where everyone chooses to accept each other for the way they are, but I hope when that day comes, that it isnt too late.
May the world have peace,


What is age? Its merely a number, for it is our deeds that determines the following we get. A person should be chosen by their deeds not their age.

I guess your post undoes my arguments against social and political fora to some extent.

 

[padamchen]

If you think about it the idea of this very fourm, where to enemies mingle and discuss ways to kill each other is very sinister in nature. Yet we have members who look above all that and talk about light hearted things. This fourm is a contradiction a stroke of mad genius. For without the diversity this forum would merely be like reading the Sunday paper, no excitement no reason to keep coming back and reading the same news, over and over again. Regarding the issue of religious hate, well that is beyond our ability to control, yet. For no matter how much you think about it there is no possible solution that benefits both parties involved. I do believe that we will reach that day, where everyone chooses to accept each other for the way they are, but I hope when that day comes, that it isnt too late.
May the world have peace,


What is age? Its merely a number, for it is our deeds that determines the following we get. A person should be chosen by their deeds not their age.

It was just my suggestion man. Based on observations and experience.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Cookie Monster]

While I have been away I noticed some contentious issue that developed recently on the forum due to a member who at least in my opinion was very valuable and knowledge but then posted a VERY objectionable post which led to a lot of backlash with all sorts of fiery angst.

But this is not exactly about that.
More so, this is about how far does one take the words and emotions online into the effectiveness of our daily lives, whether disagreement is worth keyboard smashing when it comes to contentious issues and whether it makes sense for people to people dialogue between such opposing sides of Pakistan and India, Indian Hindus and Pakistani Muslims, Arabs and Iranians, political opponents such as PTI supporters and Noon Leagers or religious opponents like Droid users and Apple loyalists.

So lets really look at it from a perspective of the positives and negatives of the most key engagement here.. Indians and Pakistanis.

What are really the advantages of having Indian members on this forum that is based around the military and safety of Pakistan, allowing them membership and then debating issues with them?
What are the disadvantages (leaving aside trolls)?.. more propogation of hatred?

Not just advantages or disadvantages to Pakistanis and their future ideals and thoughts but also to Indians too. There is a human element to both and it needs to be looked at.

Perhaps if a vote or majority direction is taken then a petition can be made to push whatever proposal it is. Be it a change in attitudes of both engaging parties or maybe a complete cessation of Indian membership to this forum; leaving all actual discussion to hopefully less “defense” inclined platforms?? Would it make sense to have a platform dedicated to such engagements with a less “hostile” look?

Anything goes but my hope is to see what leads to the advantage of all members and then to the platforms focus and quality.
Im keeping the mods out of this to let this be an honest roll call of whether it is worth to engage what is essentially an enemy state(for both sides) on a platform essentially focusing on the capability to kill the other.

@Moonlight @araz @Indus Pakistan @django @CriticalThought @Rafi @Tps43 @Joe Shearer @Nilgiri @Thorough Pro @HRK

And please Tag away.

This should remain an international forum as it has been. Yes differences in opinions and point of views will continue to exist based on where one grows up but the knowledge and ideas exchanged are far too valuable to let differences get in the way. Lately there has been an increasing number of trolls from various countries/regions bringing down the overall quality of the forum and increasing hostility. However all members have been somewhat putting up with that since there isn't yet an effective way to deal with this phenomenon. The trolls just come back with a different account and it becomes a whack a mole game for mods.

The above isn't the issue that arose with the recent events. The issue is being FAIR across the board. Let me explain in the few key points below
1) The member who committed the offense holds the title of "Think Tank"
--> Yes he may have become infuriated with trolls who were instigating but he took things far beyond an acceptable level with what he said...unbecoming of his title of TT. That is no way to handle it. If the trolls are being offensive u report them...even if they cross the line and insult ur religion, u do not insult their religion back and get away with it bcuz they did it first. It's simple insulting someone's religion(bcuz it's a sensitive issue) should mean a ban...no ifs or buts.

2) Even more bothersome is the fact that other members have been handed out bans or punished in other ways for far less.
--> This makes ppl even more uneasy bcuz it seems like favoritism. Punishment/bans should be handed out across the board for any violations.

IMO the forum shouldn't be made as per the wishes of Pakistanis...it should remain unbiased and equal for all internationally. Religious insults shouldn't be allowed for ANY religion bcuz other ppl give importance to their religion as much as we Pakistani Muslims do. In case a violation does happen like the one that happened...the member should be banned for a certain duration, his/her hurtful comments must be deleted, and he/she must issue an apology. Mods should use a strike system...three(or some other agreeable number) strikes and u r out(banned permanently).

Also as for a suggestion to curb trolls and improve the quality of the forum...I had this idea linked below
Prestige Points
It sort of makes the forum "democratic" giving the members of this forum to sort of "vote" on each post based on its quality. With this members can accumulate or lose prestige points.

@Nilgiri @Joe Shearer