Winner or Loser? Crimea annexation.

[Superboy]

tell that to Georgian

It is illegal to annex any country's territory unless those people vote in a referendum to join. In accordance to international law, Russia did not invade and annexe Abkhazia and South Ossetia after their independence from Georgia.

 

[Mighty Caty]

-except of the fact that all these countries wanted to join the EU before and being closer to Europe before



-moldova and now ukraine cant join nato, youre not allowed to join this organisation if you have border dispute. If they would join , nato would actually according to their own treaty to attack the break away independent republics in georgia, modovia and the crimean peninsula fighting the russians.

If they refuse this and still go ahead making some special exception it would be a violation of their treaty, this making nato even more obsolete it would then become obvious they wouldnt do anything if russia would do the same in the baltics.

- America and britain guaranteed the territorial integrity of ukraine for giving up their nukes, so what does it tell you who lost his credibility in dealing first of all nuclear states like iran and north korea and with american alliances and guarantees to be protected?

America lost the most because now obama is strong while hes in europe but in asia people are watching it and dont count on american guarantees. This will give china an advantage for asia countries to except chinese regional hegemony while america looks like a clown in asia, no one cares about them there where 21 century will be decided and not in aging europe. China is very hungry right now seeing how less the US has done for the crimean grab they can learn how the US would react if they would try similar things in japan and taiwan.

If some here is the winner than its china

The bold part is totally and completely false.........

Example - Greece.

Greece is a part of NATO and EU since 1952, however, Greece have several still outstanding territories dispute with several country both during and after they joined NATO. In Cyprus with Fellow NATO member Turkey and with Republic of Macedonia

Example - Turkey Joined 1952

1.)See above. (1974)
2.) Nagorno-Karabakh dispute with Armenia (1992)

Example - Germany (Formerly West Germany Joined 1955)
1.) Dispute with East Germany (resolved 1992)
2.) Dispute with Saarland (resolved 1957)

There are never ever going to be any clause related to dispute as a ground for rejection of both EU and NATO. The process ., however, involve a integrity study of their own territories. But since EU/US all do not see the partition of Ukraine and Crimea as a disputed (Same as Cyprus) in both EU and NATO eyes, Crimea still belong to and as part of Ukraine, hence there are no active dispute between Ukraine and Russia. Do remember, only Russia and some Russia support state regonise the authority of current Crimea government.

And what is there to ask the American do? Ukraine is joining NATO and so does Georgia, that is what American and NATO wanted, then why do they have to do anything about it??

A good opponent is not the one that make all the move, a good opponent is the one who use other to see the enemy move and themselves not get involved as much as possible. US is currently using China and Ukraine to stasis the Russian. What happened if war break out tomorrow between Russia and Ukraine? Do you think it will damage US more or it will damage Russia more??

 

[Superboy]

But since EU/US all do not see the partition of Ukraine and Crimea as a disputed (Same as Cyprus) in both EU and NATO eyes, Crimea still belong to and as part of Ukraine, hence there are no active dispute between Ukraine and Russia. Do remember, only Russia and some Russia support state regonise the authority of current Crimea government.

What a joke. Perhaps, as you might like to think, Falklands belongs to Argentina, or Taiwan and South Tibet belong to China. Crimeans are all Russians. They speak Russian. They act Russian. They have nothing to do with Ukraine. That is a simple fact of reality.

A good opponent is not the one that make all the move, a good opponent is the one who use other to see the enemy move and themselves not get involved as much as possible. US is currently using China and Ukraine to stasis the Russian. What happened if war break out tomorrow between Russia and Ukraine? Do you think it will damage US more or it will damage Russia more??

A stronger Russia means a weaker the US. If a civil war breaks out in Ukraine, Ukraine can kiss all of east Ukraine, south Ukraine including Odessa good bye. All of them would join Russia and Russia would be a lot more powerful.

 

[Mighty Caty]

Ukraine is a small country. Only some 576,000 square kilometers. Ukrainians soldiers would have been crazy to fight completely surrounded by Russians. The only outcome would have been death for nothing.

Do you even know how big is Ukraine Military?

Let's do a 3 way comparison between Ukraine, Georgia and Russia

Russia

Armed Force - 2,800,000 (Active 700,000, Reserve 2,035,000)
Land Size - 17,098,242 km2
Area/Defense Ratio - 0.16 solider per square kilometer
Ground force - 360,000, MBT ~ 18,000
Air Force - 160,000, 600 Fighters, 500 Ground attackers
Navy - ~ 20 major surface ship, 40 submarine

Ukraine

Armed Force - 1,200,000 (Active 200,000 (Active + Active reserve), reserve 1,000,000)
Land size - 603,628 km2
Area/Defense Ratio - 1.98 soldier per sq kilometer
Ground force - 65,000, MBT ~ 680
Air Force - 43,100, 135 fighter, 200 Ground attackers
Navy - 20,000 ~ 5 surface combat ship, no sub

Georgia

Armed Force - 190,000 (37,000 active, 150,000 reserve)
Land Size - 69,700 km2
Area/Defense Ratio - 2.72 soldier per sq kilometer
Ground Force - 37,000, MBT 200
Air Force - 3,000, 0 fighters, 47 Ground attacker
Navy - No Navy, 5 Coast Guard vessel with < 3000 sailor.

Now, it take Russia 5 days to fight off the Georgia defender, with less than 15,000 available personnel back then, how long it would take if Ukraine decided to defend their town with mobilized reserve of 1.2 mil soldier??

Traditional Defense figure point of to 1 : 3 Favor for defender, and Only eastern Ukraine are connected directly to the Russia via land border, so how would you want the Russian to fight without any kind of major casualty?? Even Georgia cause 400 casualty in 5 days (110 killed). a war with Ukraine will probably pour 50-100 times the casualty with Georgia and that's before NATO even step in.

So, how exactly is Ukraine a non-factor? Can you care to elaborate?

It is illegal to annex any country's territory unless those people vote in a referendum to join. In accordance to international law, Russia did not invade and annexe Abkhazia and South Ossetia after their independence from Georgia.

Only happen if the poll is recognized by UN, last I Check, the so called "poll" only recognized by Russia and not UN.

On the other hand, East Timor separation poll IS recognized by UN and hence the poll is legal.

If no one recognized that, how would it become legal?

 

[Mighty Caty]

What a joke. Perhaps, as you might like to think, Falklands belongs to Argentina, or Taiwan and South Tibet belong to China. Crimeans are all Russians. They speak Russian. They act Russian. They have nothing to do with Ukraine. That is a simple fact of reality.

I speak French and Danish, should I patch my allegiance to either French and Denmark??

First of all, NOT ALL Crimean are Russia, only 50 or so % are ethnic Russian, and if act like Russian, Speak Russian and then they would have nothing to do with Ukraine, then Indian, Chinese dress like westerner ( I don't see any dress with their national costume everywhere they go, saw a lot of Indian and China in T-shirt and jean) and most of them speak English, then should Chinese have nothing to do with India and China and should they be handing their country to England or America??

What an absurd reasoning...

A stronger Russia means a weaker the US. If a civil war breaks out in Ukraine, Ukraine can kiss all of east Ukraine, south Ukraine including Odessa good bye. All of them would join Russia and Russia would be a lot more powerful.

If Russia is so powerful and a "Growing" Russia mean weakened US, then why a month have passed and we still see Russia doing nothing at all in eastern Ukraine??

If they are that almighty, they would have follow up and invaded eastern Ukraine already, or you suppose the Russia is preferred to wait for Ukrainian to mobilize their reserve and have a fight with them, the Russia prefer the Ukrainian to level the playing field before moving their troop in?? Or they expected the Ukrainian would be down on their knee and doing nothing after they pull it on Crimea.

Do you know how war works? What you are saying does not make any sense.

 

[LordTyrannus]

Don´t write nonsense. EU and USA squeezed Ukrainians, fooled them with empty promises and ignited an anarchy. The president Yanukowitch was impotent to handle it, because he filled his own pockets instead of creating a strong country.

Putin on the other hand is a man who cares for his country. He used this scenario to secure his military influence in the black sea. To intimidate eastern europens which slowly became a pain in the neck, and he used this scenario to unite Russian population against the west. Everywhere in the World Russians now wave their flags.

Maybe in the process Russia will face some difficulties in its economy, but as long as Russia is a self sufficient Country and has large Resources, it will be a piece of cake to increase Russian economy in the long term.

There is China, Japan, South Korea available as customers. They are energy hungry countries. Russia will always survive and grow. After a decade of passivity and decline, Russia is back on track again. Nobody cares western smear campaign in Russia. Also nobody needs your western products, as long as a production Giant like China can give everthing to Russian market, from baby socks to High tech computer parts, from baby food to chemicals.

Russia only has 10% of its GDP as debts. We can always take a credit of 1 trillion dollars to increase living standards in Russia. And that would be the next logical step. Putin will be replaced with Medwedew and Russian economy will switch to a consumer market.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

 

[vostok]

Author managed to look into the very essence. Bravo.

 

[LordTyrannus]

Russia is US-Free Zone.

But i still wonder how the fvck GLONASS crashed for 13 hours? Did Russia miss some US cyberattack on its systems?

After Stuxnet we all know how criminal and sinister those western boys are.

 

[senheiser]

The bold part is totally and completely false.........

Example - Greece.

Greece is a part of NATO and EU since 1952, however, Greece have several still outstanding territories dispute with several country both during and after they joined NATO. In Cyprus with Fellow NATO member Turkey and with Republic of Macedonia

Example - Turkey Joined 1952

1.)See above. (1974)
2.) Nagorno-Karabakh dispute with Armenia (1992)

Example - Germany (Formerly West Germany Joined 1955)
1.) Dispute with East Germany (resolved 1992)
2.) Dispute with Saarland (resolved 1957)

There are never ever going to be any clause related to dispute as a ground for rejection of both EU and NATO. The process ., however, involve a integrity study of their own territories. But since EU/US all do not see the partition of Ukraine and Crimea as a disputed (Same as Cyprus) in both EU and NATO eyes, Crimea still belong to and as part of Ukraine, hence there are no active dispute between Ukraine and Russia. Do remember, only Russia and some Russia support state regonise the authority of current Crimea government.

And what is there to ask the American do? Ukraine is joining NATO and so does Georgia, that is what American and NATO wanted, then why do they have to do anything about it??

A good opponent is not the one that make all the move, a good opponent is the one who use other to see the enemy move and themselves not get involved as much as possible. US is currently using China and Ukraine to stasis the Russian. What happened if war break out tomorrow between Russia and Ukraine? Do you think it will damage US more or it will damage Russia more??

macedonia is only a name dispute no one claims each other territory. Turkey never claimed cyprus and neither it belonged to greece.
You contain china your self, they aint do anything against russia. The only loser is ukraine, russia loses only short term but long term new territories to grow stronger and richer.

 

[Superboy]

Do you even know how big is Ukraine Military?

Let's do a 3 way comparison between Ukraine, Georgia and Russia

Russia

Armed Force - 2,800,000 (Active 700,000, Reserve 2,035,000)
Land Size - 17,098,242 km2
Area/Defense Ratio - 0.16 solider per square kilometer
Ground force - 360,000, MBT ~ 18,000
Air Force - 160,000, 600 Fighters, 500 Ground attackers
Navy - ~ 20 major surface ship, 40 submarine

Ukraine

Armed Force - 1,200,000 (Active 200,000 (Active + Active reserve), reserve 1,000,000)
Land size - 603,628 km2
Area/Defense Ratio - 1.98 soldier per sq kilometer
Ground force - 65,000, MBT ~ 680
Air Force - 43,100, 135 fighter, 200 Ground attackers
Navy - 20,000 ~ 5 surface combat ship, no sub

Georgia

Armed Force - 190,000 (37,000 active, 150,000 reserve)
Land Size - 69,700 km2
Area/Defense Ratio - 2.72 soldier per sq kilometer
Ground Force - 37,000, MBT 200
Air Force - 3,000, 0 fighters, 47 Ground attacker
Navy - No Navy, 5 Coast Guard vessel with < 3000 sailor.

Now, it take Russia 5 days to fight off the Georgia defender, with less than 15,000 available personnel back then, how long it would take if Ukraine decided to defend their town with mobilized reserve of 1.2 mil soldier??

Traditional Defense figure point of to 1 : 3 Favor for defender, and Only eastern Ukraine are connected directly to the Russia via land border, so how would you want the Russian to fight without any kind of major casualty?? Even Georgia cause 400 casualty in 5 days (110 killed). a war with Ukraine will probably pour 50-100 times the casualty with Georgia and that's before NATO even step in.

So, how exactly is Ukraine a non-factor? Can you care to elaborate?



Only happen if the poll is recognized by UN, last I Check, the so called "poll" only recognized by Russia and not UN.

On the other hand, East Timor separation poll IS recognized by UN and hence the poll is legal.

If no one recognized that, how would it become legal?

Ukrainians are largely pro Russia. Even those who speak Ukrainian as native language do not want to fight Russians. Georgians is another matter. They don't speak close to Russian.

As for the UN, it's nothing but a tool of the superpowers. Unless the UN grows a government including a military force, it's nothing absolutely nothing and has no power whatsoever.

First of all, NOT ALL Crimean are Russia, only 50 or so % are ethnic Russian, and if act like Russian, Speak Russian and then they would have nothing to do with Ukraine, then Indian, Chinese dress like westerner ( I don't see any dress with their national costume everywhere they go, saw a lot of Indian and China in T-shirt and jean) and most of them speak English, then should Chinese have nothing to do with India and China and should they be handing their country to England or America??

Ukrainians and Russians are the same ethnicity. They are not two different ethnicities. Or that'd be like saying Mandarin speaking Han Chinese and Cantonese speaking Han Chinese are different ethnicities, or Palestinian Arabs and Iraqi Arabs are different ethnicites.

If Russia is so powerful and a "Growing" Russia mean weakened US, then why a month have passed and we still see Russia doing nothing at all in eastern Ukraine??

If they are that almighty, they would have follow up and invaded eastern Ukraine already, or you suppose the Russia is preferred to wait for Ukrainian to mobilize their reserve and have a fight with them, the Russia prefer the Ukrainian to level the playing field before moving their troop in?? Or they expected the Ukrainian would be down on their knee and doing nothing after they pull it on Crimea.

Do you know how war works? What you are saying does not make any sense.

Over 90% of East Ukrainians are in favor of joining Russia. Russia arms them and they'll be free from the illegal government in Kiev.

 

[Mighty Caty]

macedonia is only a name dispute no one claims each other territory. Turkey never claimed cyprus and neither it belonged to greece.
You contain china your self, they aint do anything against russia. The only loser is ukraine, russia loses only short term but long term new territories to grow stronger and richer.

Well, even a small country like Finland and Georgia can make Russian a run for their money, so believe what you believe, that does not mean they are true.

NATO is debating to send US Troop in Ukraine as we speak, so........

NATO commander says US troops may be deployed to Europe over Ukrainian crisis — RT USA

Ukrainians are largely pro Russia. Even those who speak Ukrainian as native language do not want to fight Russians. Georgians is another matter. They don't speak close to Russian.

As for the UN, it's nothing but a tool of the superpowers. Unless the UN grows a government including a military force, it's nothing absolutely nothing and has no power whatsoever.

Ukrainians and Russians are the same ethnicity. They are not two different ethnicities. Or that'd be like saying Mandarin speaking Han Chinese and Cantonese speaking Han Chinese are different ethnicities, or Palestinian Arabs and Iraqi Arabs are different ethnicites.

Over 90% of East Ukrainians are in favor of joining Russia. Russia arms them and they'll be free from the illegal government in Kiev.

Oh, well, again, if you say a person loyalty is based on the language they speak, then there are nothing more I can talk about. As I said, most Chinese Speak English and dress in western style, can I assume most Chinese are pro-western and should China return to Western Rule??

90%? It would be nice if you can support your "facts" last time I check the gullup poll only 34% support a reunification with Russia, and that was when Crimea is part of Ukraine.

And I am done replying to you too, unless you have some hard figure to back up what you say. Otherwise you can say 100% of East Ukraine support Russia and I cannot say anything about it. It's just a random number

 

[vostok]

90%? It would be nice if you can support your "facts" last time I check the gullup poll only 34% support a reunification with Russia, and that was when Crimea is part of Ukraine.

And I am done replying to you too, unless you have some hard figure to back up what you say. Otherwise you can say 100% of East Ukraine support Russia and I cannot say anything about it. It's just a random number

No one knows the exact numbers. That is why we demand a referendum. Various political forces for many years tried to organize a national referendum on the issue - or joining the EU or Customs Union . The authorities have consistently rejected - although people's desire was legitimate . Indeed, such issues should be resolved only through all-nation referendums . With that, Mr. Yushchenko refused and Yanukovych too. And you know why they refused ? Because they knew what actually will of the people .
And soon all the regions of the country will get a chance to hold a referendum . Then we will know the numbers. One thing I can say that the vast majority of citizens in southern and eastern Ukraine or for entry into the Russian Federation on the rights of subject's of Russian Federation or for independence from Kiev and Moscow ( creating independence New-Russian Republic) and later integration into the Eurasian Union.

 

[LordTyrannus]

Do never argue with women. Just give them High FIVE!

 

[500]

If Russia is so powerful and a "Growing" Russia mean weakened US, then why a month have passed and we still see Russia doing nothing at all in eastern Ukraine??

Russia does not need the East Ukraine. Russian economy is not in good condition, absorbing 20 million poor people with destroyed infrastructures will be devastating.

Russia is only using the eastern Ukraine to destabilize it. Those who protest there dreaming about Russian welf money dont realize that they are just being used.