Will the India Air force come clean !

[Windjammer]

Recently, after fifty years, since the 1965 war, the Indian Air force, in it's official history book, finally admitted losing some 35 aircraft in the two initial ground strikes by the Pakistan Air force on the opening days of the war, thus it leaves little to the imagination the overall IAF losses during the entire war. However, six years later, in the 1971 war, the IAF claims that it lost only 40 aircraft in the entire Western theatre including those shot down over India. What an absolute farce. Picture below represents a group of IAF Sikh pilots in one Pakistani POW camp alone.Considering Sikhs are only a minority, it's not difficult to conclude how many majority Hindu pilots must have been shot down or for that matter pilots from other minorities such as Muslims and Christians makes the admitted Indians losses figure of overall 40 aircraft ludicrous specially since Indian Ministry of Defence also admits that most of the air battles took place over India. Thus the Pakistani claims of destroying over 80 Indian aircraft in Western theatre makes it a real possibility, these don't include any ground losses during PAF's prolonged night attacks on all major IAF bases throughout the war. Let's just hope, we don't need to wait another lifetime before the IAF admits to it's real losses.

Pakistan, Lyalpur camp, 12 April 1972, visit to Indian prisoners of war (POWs).
"Sikh pilots, now POWs, passed their time flying kites. Camp authorities forbade this activity. An "homme de confiance", also a POW, explains the visit of Red Cross delegates, emphasizing that he hopes the ICRC can negotiate on their behalf the return of the kites."

 

[zebra7]

Recently, after fifty years, since the 1965 war, the Indian Air force, in it's official history book, finally admitted losing some 35 aircraft in the two initial ground strikes by the Pakistan Air force on the opening days of the war, thus it leaves little to the imagination the overall IAF losses during the entire war. However, six years later, in the 1971 war, the IAF claims that it lost only 40 aircraft in the entire Western theatre including those shot down over India. What an absolute farce. Picture below represents a group of IAF Sikh pilots in one Pakistani POW camp alone.Considering Sikhs are only a minority, it's not difficult to conclude how many majority Hindu pilots must have been shot down or for that matter pilots from other minorities such as Muslims and Christians makes the admitted Indians losses figure of overall 40 aircraft ludicrous specially since Indian Ministry of Defence also admits that most of the air battles took place over India. Thus the Pakistani claims of destroying over 80 Indian aircraft in Western theatre makes it a real possibility, these don't include any ground losses during PAF's prolonged night attacks on all major IAF bases throughout the war. Let's just hope, we don't need to wait another lifetime before the IAF admits to it's real losses.

Pakistan, Lyalpur camp, 12 April 1972, visit to Indian prisoners of war (POWs).
"Sikh pilots, now POWs, passed their time flying kites. Camp authorities forbade this activity. An "homme de confiance", also a POW, explains the visit of Red Cross delegates, emphasizing that he hopes the ICRC can negotiate on their behalf the return of the kites."

From where are you searching these blogs,articles, news etc you must have made the record in posting them and starting new thread. For above post can you specify the source of the real article.

 

[Windjammer]

From where are you searching these blogs,articles, news etc you must have made the record in posting them and starting new thread. For above post can you specify the source of the real article.

What blog article, the picture was released by International Commission of Red Cross, the rest is my own assertion....what's your point.

 

[Indus Falcon]

What blog article, the picture was released by International Commission of Red Cross, the rest is my own assertion....what's your point.

No Point, just trolling as usual.

 

[zebra7]

What blog article, the picture was released by International Commission of Red Cross, the rest is my own assertion....what's your point.

Don't take it otherwise my point is where did you get all the articles, blogs and news first hand(not talking about this particular post) because many of time I have seen you posting and starting the thread. You can make this way I am asking about some websites link so that I could also start some Thread. LOLz

No Point, just trolling as usual.

Hey when did I have trolled.

Su35 Jindabaad

 

[Windjammer]

Don't take it otherwise my point is where did you get all the articles, blogs and news first hand(not talking about this particular post) because many of time I have seen you posting and starting the thread. You can make this way I am asking about some websites link so that I could also start some Thread. LOLz

All depends on your subject of interest, having access or contacts with related sources also helps.

 

[Windjammer]

At least 50 confirmed air-to-air kills

Air Aces Homepage

 

[Omega007]

At least 50 confirmed air-to-air kills

Air Aces Homepage

So what??Just because your air force,which by the way is infamous for making tall claims,(all of your armed forces ct the same by the way) has made some outlandish claims,does it mean we have to take it in our throat lying down??Why??Why should we take bombastic claims that of those big mouths as the Gospel,when the assessments of neutral studies actually finds the IAF claims of ~45 combat loses to be quite consistent with reality??Why do everyone has to take the words of an institution,that had earlier made such bombastic and outrageous yet unsubstantiated claims like "one Sabre shooting down 5 Hunters within a few minutes",later thoroughly debunked as being ludicrous and totally away from the reality??
This leads us to the question,that why shouldn't we take the IAF claims of it shooting down of 94 PAF planes,since their version has been found to be closer with the reality when stating their own loses (which most would try to hide)??Why shouldn't we be taking the IAF claims as the benchmark,when two studies,one of which was led by M. Leonard, Thomas and the other by Taylor & Francis,which puts the PAF loses at 75,which is again much closer to the Indian version of 94 compared to the PAF claim of a mere 42??
And this is not just true for the IAF cliams,but for Indian Army claims wrt their loses and loses inflicted as well!!For example,Indian Army claimed to have destroyed/knocked out 42 Pakistani tanks in Sialkot sector,which is very much consistent with the 37 claimed in the official history of your 6th armored division,but your claims of 120 Indian tanks destroyed has been found to be totally devoid of any reality!!And the list goes on and on with Phillora,Dograi,Basantar - you just name it!!Everywhere,in every effing case,the Indians claims have always been found to be far more close to the reality than have your versions been!!So allow me to present my question for one final time:

WHY SHOULD WE TAKE YOUR PAF'S CLAIMS AS GOSPEL WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN CONSISTENTLY PROVEN TO BE FALSE IN THE PAST??

PS - Lest I should forget,here is the link to the Indian claims,enjoy.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140113013008/http://orbat.com/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971_kills_rev1.pdf

 

[Windjammer]

So what??Just because your air force,which by the way is infamous for making tall claims,(all of your armed forces ct the same by the way) has made some outlandish claims,does it mean we have to take it in our throat lying down??Why??Why should we take bombastic claims that of those big mouths as the Gospel,when the assessments of neutral studies actually finds the IAF claims of ~45 combat loses to be quite consistent with reality??Why do everyone has to take the words of an institution,that had earlier made such bombastic and outrageous yet unsubstantiated claims like "one Sabre shooting down 5 Hunters within a few minutes",later thoroughly debunked as being ludicrous and totally away from the reality??
This leads us to the question,that why shouldn't we take the IAF claims of it shooting down of 94 PAF planes,since their version has been found to be closer with the reality when stating their own loses (which most would try to hide)??Why shouldn't we be taking the IAF claims as the benchmark,when two studies,one of which was led by M. Leonard, Thomas and the other by Taylor & Francis,which puts the PAF loses at 75,which is again much closer to the Indian version of 94 compared to the PAF claim of a mere 42??
And this is not just true for the IAF cliams,but for Indian Army claims wrt their loses and loses inflicted as well!!For example,Indian Army claimed to have destroyed/knocked out 42 Pakistani tanks in Sialkot sector,which is very much consistent with the 37 claimed in the official history of your 6th armored division,but your claims of 120 Indian tanks destroyed has been found to be totally devoid of any reality!!And the list goes on and on with Phillora,Dograi,Basantar - you just name it!!Everywhere,in every effing case,the Indians claims have always been found to be far more close to the reality than have your versions been!!So allow me to present my question for one final time:

WHY SHOULD WE TAKE YOUR PAF'S CLAIMS AS GOSPEL WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN CONSISTENTLY PROVEN TO BE FALSE IN THE PAST??

PS - Lest I should forget,here is the link to the Indian claims,enjoy.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140113013008/http://orbat.com/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971_kills_rev1.pdf

Ever heard of the story, where a boy could count upto one hunred but when randomnly asked, what comes after ten, he was totally lost.....yes sir, you ideally represent that boy.
Since many of you people have comprehension issues when it comes to writing, hence, i posted a picture to make it easy for you guys. The image represents just one group of IAF Sikh pilots in one Pakistani POW camp, all I'm asking is, in 1971, was the IAF only manned by Sikh officers, or all the IAF pilots shot down just happened to be Sikhs, once again, here you see a group of around TWO DOZEN Sikh pilots in one camp alone, what about in other camps other Sikh pilots, pilots from other minorities and above all the Majority Hindu pilots.....damn, that surely calculates into some high losses on part of the IAF. !!!!
That was my simple querry, i never mentioned the Indian tall claims of shooting down six PAF Mirages, yet not a single proof provided, similarly Ten F-104 were claimed by the IAF, but wreckage of only one repeatedly shown as proof and above all India claimed some 90 PAF aircraft, (LOL), how many PAF pilot it had in custody, i mean you people were quick to show couple of PAF pilots shot down in Eastern Sector, what about in the West, where majority of air battles took place. !!!!
Once again take a good look at this picture and wonder how many aircraft did IAF actualy lost in 1971 war....the total figure of some 120 seems the right figure.

 

[Omega007]

Ever heard of the story, where a boy could count upto one hunred but when randomnly asked, what comes after ten, he was totally lost.....yes sir, you ideally represent that boy.
Since many of you people have comprehension issues when it comes to writing, hence, i posted a picture to make it easy for you guys. The image represents just one group of IAF Sikh pilots in one Pakistani POW camp, all I'm asking is, in 1971, was the IAF only manned by Sikh officers, or all the IAF pilots shot down just happened to be Sikhs, once again, here you see a group of around TWO DOZEN Sikh pilots in one camp alone, what about in other camps other Sikh pilots, pilots from other minorities and above all the Majority Hindu pilots.....damn, that surely calculates into some high losses on part of the IAF. !!!!
That was my simple querry, i never mentioned the Indian tall claims of shooting down six PAF Mirages, yet not a single proof provided, similarly Ten F-104 were claimed by the IAF, but wreckage of only one repeatedly shown as proof and above all India claimed some 90 PAF aircraft, (LOL), how many PAF pilot it had in custody, i mean you people were quick to show couple of PAF pilots shot down in Eastern Sector, what about in the West, where majority of air battles took place. !!!!
Once again take a good look at this picture and wonder how many aircraft did IAF actualy lost in 1971 war....the total figure of some 120 seems the right figure.

Umm...ok,if you say so.But where is two dozen??I count 14 of them.

 

[Windjammer]

Umm...ok,if you say so.But where is two dozen??I count 14 of them.

What about those with their backs to the camera. ??
Believe me there were more than just two dozen in this camp.

 

[Omega007]

What about those with their backs to the camera. ??
Believe me there were more than just two dozen in this camp.

Ok,I'll take your words for it.But still,120 is too big a number just like the 94 claimed by IAF!!The IAF losses most probably stood between 50-70,if we are to believe the official history.Can't comment on PAF losses on the western front though.

 

[Omega007]

Whoa,and here I thought thread was about IAF in 1971 and all!!

 

[Windjammer]

@Horus , @Jango @Slav Defence
Can you clear up this thread please.