will paf buy any new fighter plane

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Every one not only on this forum but on others only describing future threats and resources to counter them but they forget that we are living in present time .We should see whether resources we are going to induct today shall be useful for future or not. We should realistically see that if or present resources PAF resources are quite enough to defend our airspace against existing fleet of IAF. Sincerely big no comes in mind as we still don;t have required AEW platforms our even fourth gen jets. We have only 76 F16s along with perhaps 54 declared JF17s strength to counter IAF SU 30MKI,Mirage 2000 and Mig29s , intentionally leaving old jets like Mig21 and Jaguars though even they are upgraded with powerful radars,ew suits and other gadgets with combined strength of 300+.

Further we don;t have any declared long range SAM, the medium level SAMS are also even only install to protect sensitive sites meanwhile civil structure is almost at the mercy of our adversary. Even in previous two wars and current border skirmishes India never hesitated to ponder civil infrastructure.

We should immediately go for following steps.

1. Try to get as much F16s as possible whether used or new if possible. If not possible then walkaway from this platform.
2.Try to get J31 in limited numbers in next Two to three Years as Chinese are known perform such Charisma in the past.
3. Try to get at least two squadrons of Su35 especially in current scenario as Pak has been asked to get new 8 F16s by own funds. We should scrap this deal and start to induct SU35s along with retirement of Mirage IIIs and Mirage Vs. The Su 35 one squadron along with one squadron of JF17s so far shall be quite enough.Meanwhile one squadron should be kept for deep penetration in enemy territory.

In future PAF may base on following platforms J31, JF17s, Su35 and F16s.

Bro, though Su-35 would solve many things and also allow China to export the J-11's it might not give much to the JF-17's.

In a previous post on the topic I did mention if Pakistan works with the Italians to purchase a package deal comprising Heli's, Ships, Air Defence, Submarines and Aircraft it might also get the Engines and other goodies for JF-17. This would get the JF-17 in the same category of F-16 V's and Rafales. However a similar deal with the French could also lead PAF in getting the Rafale M and the same systems for JF-17's, the Fremm could be available along with the French Next Generation Subs.

A deal on such a scale is going to cost around 2-3 billion per year for lets say 5 years hence affordable.

 

[araz]

I'm in favour of seriously evaluating participation TFX programme. Diversification is good.

The problem as always is money. TFX currently is on paper. Between paper and prototype lies billion of dollars in evaluation and testing and correction of problems. It is potentially a bottomless pit and PAF/Pakistan cannot afford this. The reason we have stayed out of J31 venture was the same as PAF wants a finished product with commitment from the Chinese to buy it before it ventures out. This has been borne out of the Chinese reneging on their commitment to buy the JFT irrespective of whether it fits their plans or not.
So diversiity is good but the cost needs to be counted as well.
It is simply like marrying the most beautiful woman in the world not expecting to deal with her nakhray and the other male suiters that come round hoping to have a bite at the cherry.
A

PAF is lagging far behind in technical training and is incompetent to fly any modern era 4th generation jet other than old tech f-16. JFT is a simplistic modernized refurbished MIG 21 capable only to bomb North Waziristan and FATA. BVR capability of JFT is just a propaganda. Look at PAF history.They keep pretending to evaluate different modern jets and nothing else.Heck PAF can't even handle J-10B.

Your post reflects your anger rather than knowledge. F16s remain relevant in the current era as well as the next decade or two. This is the reason people are still ordering it.
A

 

[Paksanity]

The problem as always is money. TFX cureently is on paper. Between paper and prototype lies billion of dollars in evaluation and testing and correction of problems. It is potentially a bottomless pit and PAF/Pakistan cannot afford this. The reason we have stayed out of J31 venture was the same as PAF wants a finished product with commitment from the Chinese to buy it before it ventures out. This has been borne out of the Chinese reneging on their commitment to buy the JFT irrespective of whether it fits their plans or not.
So diversiity is good but the cost needs to be counted as well.
It is simply like marrying the most beautiful woman in the world not expecting to deal with her nakhray and the other male suiters that come round hoping to have a bite at the cherry.
A

I would like to look at it as an investment and presence of a reliable partner in that investment. I think Turks will be able to export it to number of nations like Azerbaijan, Egypt, Indonesia and central-East Europe. We will have our share in export revenues albeit small. Granted it is a bet that could go wrong but I'm optimistic in Turkish abilities somehow. Look at it like JF-17 program. Exports if successful will give good return to our investment making funds availble for further R&D. It will also ensure we sustain our access to Western technology in future. A bit of both East and West has done good to us earlier.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I would like to look at it as an investment and presence of a reliable partner in that investment. I think Turks will be able to export it to number of nations like Azerbaijan, Egypt, Indonesia and central-East Europe. We will have our share in export revenues albeit small. Granted it is a bet that could go wrong but I'm optimistic in Turkish abilities somehow. Look at it like JF-17 program. Exports if successful will give good return to our investment making funds availble for further R&D. It will also ensure we sustain our access to Western technology in future. A bit of both East and West has done good to us earlier.

Totally agree with you on this. TFX being a product of a NATO member State would potentially be complementing the F-35's. The US are not inclined towards a duel engined 5th Gen aircraft hence TFX would have a greater chance over the KFX or the Japanese Shin Shin.

 

[Beast]

Thank you for reply sir
With all do respect , you sounds like there is final PT (proto type ) out there and also its done almost all of its testing . in short almost ready to go in production, But in reality who knows how many proto type will come after Pt2(some said its in air).So first let the final Pakistani standard PT out then we decide how long it will going to take to get J31 in fully operational mood.
Sir you said JF31 is almost a mixture copy of J20,,F35,,F22.....sir don't you think it will be more harder practically to make such a design and machine , And you also have to look at the Original concept birds all 3 of them having lot of problems and for F35 they almost called it a technically failed project on one stage "its the politics that make that project running".
I agree with you on last part Pakistan have only 2 options ,, First put money and man power in J31 make sure it will come to production line ASAP , set a time line for that just say 2022 , and very important we have to have JV on this bird , so we can make it in Pakistan in large number (over 120 to replace F16) with out any issue of string attach .
Second we have to join hand with Turkey in there TFX program. Its will be good eastern and western combo of 5th Gen in future in PAF.

Thank you

That is why I quote JF-17 as an example. Past record do act as an indicator for J-31 project. JF-17 also utilize alot of mature technology from J-10 project, for example radar/avionics.

J-31 is a mixture of F-22, J-20 and F-35 is absolutely correct and proves this is a very mature design and approach. Look at SK KFX project and Japan AFX, even India AMCA. Their design overall is quite similar and is based on a very mature reduced conventional cross section design. J-31 is going on that way. How will it complicated rather than hassle the project?

F-35 is a disastrous project becos the stupid US Marine demand a STOVL take off feature which result in complicated thrust vector nozzle that complicated the whole project. J-31 learn from US mistake and approach by having a 5th gen layout while using conventional propulsion system of no thrust vector. All this ensure, J-31 will be a fast project. The RAM coating from J-20 will apply, avionics tested out, ammunition system sounds ok and off it can go. J-31 having a sound journey due to powerful supercomputer simulation which will ensure, the design, layout is smooth and workable before committed on it. It is feasible to think J-31 will be a fast one.

 

[volatile]

That is why I quote JF-17 as an example. Past record do act as an indicator for J-31 project. JF-17 also utilize alot of mature technology from J-10 project, for example radar/avionics.

J-31 is a mixture of F-22, J-20 and F-35 is absolutely correct and proves this is a very mature design and approach. Look at SK KFX project and Japan AFX, even India AMCA. Their design overall is quite similar and is based on a very mature reduced conventional cross section design. J-31 is going on that way. How will it complicated rather than hassle the project?

F-35 is a disastrous project becos the stupid US Marine demand a STOVL take off feature which result in complicated thrust vector nozzle that complicated the whole project. J-31 learn from US mistake and approach by having a 5th gen layout while using conventional propulsion system of no thrust vector. All this ensure, J-31 will be a fast project. The RAM coating from J-20 will apply, avionics tested out, ammunition system sounds ok and off it can go. J-31 having a sound journey due to powerful supercomputer simulation which will ensure, the design, layout is smooth and workable before committed on it. It is feasible to think J-31 will be a fast one.

I think we will see very quick Pakistan participation in J31 program if China itself venture with confirmed orders for following as J31 in time will benefit from J20 but J20 is all together a different class CHina knows it ,Pak knows it so for time being we are stuck between a rock and a hard place

 

[araz]

I would like to look at it as an investment and presence of a reliable partner in that investment. I think Turks will be able to export it to number of nations like Azerbaijan, Egypt, Indonesia and central-East Europe. We will have our share in export revenues albeit small. Granted it is a bet that could go wrong but I'm optimistic in Turkish abilities somehow. Look at it like JF-17 program. Exports if successful will give good return to our investment making funds availble for further R&D. It will also ensure we sustain our access to Western technology in future. A bit of both East and West has done good to us earlier.

You are entitled to your own opinion. However the fighter jet mafia will not allow any venture to flourish in light of a small market and expensive products. They would want to safeguard their own products. So any market would be small the demands of the buyer for loans over extended periods are things which will hinder sales prospects. If you want a venture to sell get in with a partner with whom you have ventured out before and who can extend the credit line. I think China is a much better bet. My 2 paisas worth.
A

 

[optimisticlad]

As long as F-16s keep coming, PAF will not bother to look elsewhere. I just hope that Congress blocks the FMF because that would make PAF pay the whole amount which might make them consider the alternative. It would be a blessing in disguise.

On a side note i dont know why have people opted for SU-35? Its Russian and it ant coming. Russia will not upset India not now anway. Neither will SU-27 from China because that too will require Russian permission. Instead of SU-27, J-11 is more plausible but even that remains sceptical because of Russian design and engine. The only viable option is J-10B.

We should have gone for J-10 when it was offered the 1st time during Musharraf time. Agreed it did not provide any improvement over F-16s infact lacked in certain aspects but had we acquired the jet than, we would have gotten the nitty gritty of the jet by now. The Chinese are far more lenient in sharing crucial technology than the Americans. Plus the upgrades would have keep coming and also PAF would have been able to give critical inputs and perhaps a tailored made J-10 just like F-7PG would have been made which would meet our requirements more than any other Jet. Not to forget it would have been a sanction proof plane which we can use anywhere and any time as we deem fit. Plus no more American BS about not doing enough against Haqqanis.

summed up everything .....in just 3 paragraphs each paragraph discussing a specific topic.....

 

[ghauri05]

J-31 do not need such long time to commission from now. Take a good look at JF-17. From first pt4 to operation, it took less than 4 years to get operation. J-31 is using a lot of mature concept from J-20 and design borrow from F-35,F-22. It is less complicated compare to F-35 w/o the vertical take off while the twin engine thrust gives it the enough power compare to F-35. The most important thing is customer must be committed to the project and put a down payment. It needs a confirmation for it to progress fast. By 2020, this plane can be handed over for operation.

J-31 IS almost of same size as f-35,but with twin engine, isn't it a drawback in terms of space available to carry weapons???

 

[Humble Analyst]

Forget what I am smoking, what are you smoking? Can PAF pilots fly any 4th generation jet besides Old tech F-16 and simplistic JF 17? No they won't because they never have anything else. RESEARCH! PAF turned down Grippen because it was too complicated. It was said by then PAF chief. You have been made fool for a long time and get out of your biased love for JF-17. It has no chance against SU 30 MKI and Rafal or M2K or Mig 29. You know PAF is inferior in technology even against Bangladesh because they have MIG 29s

Mig 29 range and sortie time please?

 

[Beast]

J-31 IS almost of same size as f-35,but with twin engine, isn't it a drawback in terms of space available to carry weapons???

Twin engine means more thrust. Do you know that F-35 cant supercruise? F-35 despite is a single engine needs addition space for complicated thrust vector mechanism that makes F-35 single engine and less internal space than J-31.

J-31 do not have complicated thrust vector mechanism which means higher chance of break down and more reliable, less maintenance.

I think we will see very quick Pakistan participation in J31 program if China itself venture with confirmed orders for following as J31 in time will benefit from J20 but J20 is all together a different class CHina knows it ,Pak knows it so for time being we are stuck between a rock and a hard place

Pakistan needs to act quick and commit into J-31 project, beat IAF in fielding first 5th gen fighter.

 

[Falcon26]

Twin engine means more thrust. Do you know that F-35 cant supercruise? F-35 despite is a single engine needs addition space for complicated thrust vector mechanism that makes F-35 single engine and less internal space than J-31.

J-31 do not have complicated thrust vector mechanism which means higher chance of break down and more reliable, less maintenance.


Pakistan needs to act quick and commit into J-31 project, beat IAF in fielding first 5th gen fighter.

It's my belief that PAF can't afford to field unproven and untested platforms when it's enemy across the border is inducting systems that are vastly potent. The FC-31 is untested and even the Chinese are not going to induct this plane. I hope PAF takes a bold action and seriously pursue the Eurofighter which if inducted can help even the JF-17 program in bringing to Pakistan critical components that the jf-17 needs to become the Gripen of South Asia. Salex and other Italian firms that have long relationship with PAF already provide critical components for the EuroFighter, making its acquisition even in limited numbers a very natural choice.

PAF can wait for the Turks to induct their TFX & then procure them directly.

Imagine a PAF fleet comprising of 150 JF-17 heavily modernized blocks, 110 F-16s & 36 EuroFighters before 2020.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I remember that when Musharaf visited the JF-17 production facility in China , they offered him J-10 , and as far as I've read , China was suppose to deliver 36 of them by 2015 , whatever happened to that deal?!

 

[MastanKhan]

It's my belief that PAF can't afford to field unproven and untested platforms when it's enemy across the border is inducting systems that are vastly potent. The FC-31 is untested and even the Chinese are not going to induct this plane. I hope PAF takes a bold action and seriously pursue the Eurofighter which if inducted can help even the JF-17 program in bringing to Pakistan critical components that the jf-17 needs to become the Gripen of South Asia. Salex and other Italian firms that have long relationship with PAF already provide critical components for the EuroFighter, making its acquisition even in limited numbers a very natural choice.

PAF can wait for the Turks to induct their TFX & then procure them directly.

Imagine a PAF fleet comprising of 150 JF-17 heavily modernized blocks, 110 F-16s & 36 EuroFighters before 2020.

Hi,

How would the Turk aircraft be superior to the chinese aircraft----. The turks may have access to a few things for a short time----but in the long run---nothing beats china---because none has the funds that the chinese have other than the U S---.

No one knows how much tech the chinese have stolen----plus they don't have to make two or three different versions of the J31---and they got another 5-8 years.

I remember that when Musharaf visited the JF-17 production facility in China , they offered him J-10 , and as far as I've read , China was suppose to deliver 36 of them by 2015 , whatever happened to that deal?!

Hi,

It was the other way around----Mushy says this is what we want---they said what are you talking about---we don't have it---Mushy pulled out a picture of that aircraft---the J10--.

The deal got sabotaged by the Paf---the air force wanted to keep secure jobs after retirement---so that is why they kept pushing onto the JF17 program---.

 

[Airdef95]

Good to know.