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Why We’d Miss Musharraf

dabong1 said:
What a wonderful cut/paste job.......i can do the same.
It has been five-and-a-half years that General Pervez Musharraf usurped power in Pakistan. Entire wealth of the country, might of the armed forces, the positive as well as negative resources of secret agencies and the judiciary remain under unchallenged control of a single person. However, despite such immense powers, a long rule and tall claims, he has failed to wipe out corruption, maintain law and order, and provide good governance, justice, prosperity, employment and security to the people. Instead of getting the Kashmir issue according to UN resolutions in the interests of Pakistan and the Kashmiri people, General Musharraf has adopted the course of continuous retreat. He has launched a war against Pakistani citizens in tribal areas and Balochistan. Plunder of national resources reigns supreme. Pakistan has been burdened with the largest cabinet in its history. In fact, Pervez Musharraf is destined to fail on every front, and his personal failures are adversely affecting the reputation of the army, the air force and the navy, with the result that the nation is not only angry with him but hates him. He is perfectly aware of the situation, but is reluctant to relinquish power for fear of accountability. He has put entire country on the stake for his personal safety.

Following teachings of the vile Brahman Chanakia and the Italian professor Machiavelli, he has been engaged in mud slinging against democratic rulers during the past five-and-a-half years in order to cover up his own failings. It was again in Chanakian tradition that two days back he claimed that billions of rupees were looted between 1985 and 1999, while nothing was done for the people.

Before replying to these slanders, and exposing the worst incompetence and corruption of his five-and-a-half years rule, we want to remind the nation once more that military generals were busy in intrigues during the rule of two political leaders, Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto. Clever tactics of the agencies never let the political governments work. Lt. General (retired) Tanwir Naqvi, the architect of National Reconstruction Bureau, admitted the fact before the national press saying "what the army used to do clandestinely in the past is doing openly under General Pervez Musharraf." Here we present a comparison between performance of General Musharraf and that of elected political rulers.

Incompetence, Corruption and Losses
Current Education Minister and former ISI head and Railways Minister Lt. General (retired) Javed Ashraf Qazi had repeatedly claimed that he made railways a profit earning enterprise and ended corruption. Pervez Musharraf also praised him in a TV address. However, current Railways Minister Mian Shamim Haider exposed Qazi's claim in a statement in National Assembly on October 14, 2004. He said that railways suffered a loss of 16.2 billion rupees during General Qazi's tenure. In addition, the Federal Government provided a subsidy of 10.4 billion rupees during 2001 and 2002. The actual loss, therefore, amounted to Rs. 26.6 billion that included corruption worth billions. The railways also suffered a loss of Rs. 14.16 billion during the tenure of another Railways Minister Ghaus Bakhsh Mehar, and government helped it with Rs. 16.1 billion. The total loss amounted to Rs. 30.26 billion that also included billions in corruption. It must be noted here that railway fares were increased by 30 percent during the period, while 90 million rupees were wasted away on renovation of railway rest houses. That speaks a lot about the performance of two so-called competent and honest ministers appointed by General Musharraf. Is he really proud of this performance, and does it mean end of corruption on higher levels?

Meanwhile, a serious reference against Javed Ashraf Qazi has been on files for two yeas, but no action has been taken so far, just because he happens to be a close friend of General Musharraf and former head of the ISI.

The Auditor General of Pakistan has found a total loss of 65 billion rupees in nine ministries, including Trading Corporation of Pakistan, National Tanker Company, Pakistan National Shipping Corporation and PIA during the rule of General Musharraf. This huge amount was looted under of General Musharraf and nobody bothered to care. Is this the performance that Pervez Musharraf takes pride in, and calls it better than that of political rulers?

General Pervez Musharraf never tires of calling his system of local government the panacea of all ills. However, the Auditor General has pointed out corruption of Rs. 633.7 million in just one year in Punjab districts. An audit covering three-and-a-half years accounts of Punjab local governments would prove billion lost due to corruption, another matter of pride for General Musharraf.


Foreign loans of $9 billion
Boasting about economic achievements of his government, General Musharraf also repeatedly claims of having broken the begging bowl. However, Financial Ministry sources have revealed that the government acquired nine billion dollars in loans from foreign institutions during the first four-and-a-half years of its rule. Where is the broken begging bowl of which general Musharraf is so proud?

Postponement of Mega Projects and Losses
Nawaz Sharif government had initiated a large number of mega projects including Gwadar Port, Ghazi Barotha Project, Islamabad Air Port, Pindi Bhattian-Faislaabad Motorway, Apna Ghar Scheme, Indus Highway and Makran Coastal Highway. General Musharraf put all these projects on hold after usurping power causing rise in costs, and the national exchequer was burdened with 150 billion rupees, for which he alone is responsible. Is that a laudable performance?

Rs. 30 billion loans written off
During the first three years of his rule, General Musharraf wrote off loans worth Rs. 30 billion due from big borrowers. No democratic government in ten years could match that performance!

The value of non-performing loans rose by Rs. 52 billion during the first four years of Musharraf rule, while the loan default rose by 21 billion rupees.

Nawaz Sharif reduced annual expenses of the Prime Minister House to 160 million rupees down from 320million, but General Musharraf again ordered an increase to Rs. 850 million.

VIP Culture
Nawaz Sharif had abolished the VIP culture, but General Musharraf not only revived it but also expanded it.

Role of the NAB
General Pervez Musharraf had claimed that NAB was an effective instrument against corruption, and that it would wipe out corruption. However, he refused to abide by the Supreme Court ruling regarding NAB, and used it to force change of loyalties. Is that the reason why many people facing NAB cases were appointed minister after they changed their loyalties? Many others with fake degrees are included in ruling party legislators and ministers. Siddique-ul-Farooque has already provided NAB with irrefutable evidence against Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi and Chaudhry Wajahat Hussain. But NAB has stopped all proceedings on these references under directions from General Musharraf. Recently, NAB's Additional Director Major (retired0 M. A. Lodhi was caught with 400 million rupees that he had received as bribe. He has been caught because he allegedly did not share the money with others. In fact NAB is full of black sheep from top to bottom. Instead of eliminating corruption, it continues to be involved in corruption worth billions. I challenge that if former NAB chief Khalid Maqbool, former Prosecutor General Farooq Adam, Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi, Chaudhry Wajahat Hussain, Sheikh Rashid Ahmed, Owais Leghari and the existing NAB officials named by me are handed over to me with powers o0f the NAB chief, I will recover 20 billion rupees of loot from them within three months. If I fail, I am prepared to face hardest punishment under Pakistan Penal Code.

I have been brief due to constraints of time and paucity of space in the media. If Allah gives me opportunity, I will continue to expose the real performance of Musharraf government in future also. I end this presentation with a request to General Musharraf to look at the performance of his government in this mirror, and then decide whether his pride in it, and his slander against politicians is justified.


The misstatements that General Pervez Musharraf made during his chat with media persons on February 24 at the President House included his claim that there is no dearness in the country. That reminds one of the French Queen Marie Antoinette, who, when told about scarcity of bread for the poor, retorted, "then why don't they eat cake!" General Musharraf also acts like an eighteenth century monarch rather than a 21st century ruler. He is also as uninformed and indifferent to the problems of the people as Marie Antoinette. We are presenting a mirror that reflects the range of price hikes during his unconstitutional rule, and the misery that he has causing to the people.

This fact sheet gives a comparison between the prices prevalent in 1999 under Nawaz Sharif rule and those prevailing in the sixth year of General Musharraf's rule. It would amply demonstrate the facts as they exist, and we invite general Musharraf to have a look at the true image of his claims:-

ITEMS October 1999 February 2005 Percentage Rise

Flour Rs.8.00 per kg Rs.15.00 per kg 90%
Rs.17.00 " in NWFP
Bread Rs.1.50 Rs.3.00 100%
Sugar Rs.18.00 per kg Rs.28 per kg 50%
Tea Rs.180.00 per kg Rs.280.00 per kg 56%
Ghee Rs.54.00 per kg Rs.79.00 per kg 50%
Milk Rs.18 - 24 per liter Rs.24 - 33 per liter 33%
Milk Powder Rs.140.00 per kg Rs.190.00 per kg 36%
Mutton Rs.110.00 per kg Rs.220.00 per kg 100%
Beef Rs.60.00 per kg Rs.120.00 per kg 100%
Gas bill Rs.100.00 average Rs.240.00 average 140%
Elect. Bill Rs.100.00 average Rs.250.00 average 150%
Medicines Rs.100.00 average Rs.160.00 average 60%
Petrol Rs.24.04 per lit. Rs.42.46 per lit. 60%
Diesel Rs.9.65 per lit. Rs.27.23 per lit. 200%
Kerosene Rs.9.50 per lit. Rs.27.04 per lit. 200%
Urea Rs.280.00 per bag Rs.435.00 per bag 50%
DAP Rs.650.00 per bag Rs.1050.00 per bag 60%
Cement Rs.170.00 per bag Rs.250.00 per bag 50%
Iron Bars Rs.16000.00 per ton Rs.34000.00 per ton 110%
Bricks with
Cartage Rs.1300 per thousand Rs.3100 per thousand 135%

School and college fees, and prices of text books and stationary have also risen by 100 percent, while five major universities of the country have increased their fees by as much as 400 percent. Public transport fares have been increased by 40 to 100 percent. Prices of chilly, spices, cereals, rice, detergent, shoes and cloth have registered an average rise of 80 percent, while gradual devaluation of the rupee has cut down its purchasing power by 20 percent.

This brief study indicates that over all prices of essential commodities have risen by almost 80 percent, lower incomes and enhanced taxation is an additional burden on the citizens. In other words, the overall economic impact has risen twofold compared to 1999. A poor and middle class family of six members that used to meet its necessities with 6,000 rupees in 1999 now needs 13,000 rupees for the same. The ruling gang has contrived raise their expenses five-fold in the name perks, official visits and personal security. However, the impact of the so-called increase in salaries of government servants is practically not more than ten percent. The salaries of President, judges, army chief, governors and ministers have been increased by 110 to 140 percent in addition to unlimited other perks. The total expenditure of the Prime Minister House in 1999 was Rs. 160 million, but the present government has increased it by 87 percent.

General Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz cannot have any idea of the misery that rising prices are causing to the poor and middle class people, because the national exchequer bears all their expenses, and, in addition, they own properties worth billions and huge bank balances. They just don't belong to the common people. When a poor man fails to provide two square meals to his children, get proper medical treatment for them, is unable to pay their school/college fees, or get them new clothes for Eid, he feels fed up with life and thinks of committing suicide. But His Majesty says that if you can't pay gas bill then don't turn on the stove, if you can't pay power bill then don't light the lamp. The answer to hunger and employment is writ large on his face saying embrace death if you do not find bread.

This is the measure of General Musharraf's care for the poor and middle class Pakistanis who sacrificed their lives to create Pakistan, while the rulers wallow in luxuries. We ask General Musharraf whether this is the performance that he boasts about. If you really want to be proud, then provide same security of life and property to the people that you have arranged for yourself; raise their income at least twofold so that they may maintain their standard of life as they used to have during the rule of Nawaz Sharif.
You did a good copy past, but this is not a copy paste.

Incompetence, Corruption and Losses
Current Education Minister and former ISI head and Railways Minister Lt. General (retired) Javed Ashraf Qazi had repeatedly claimed that he made railways a profit earning enterprise and ended corruption. Pervez Musharraf also praised him in a TV address. However, current Railways Minister Mian Shamim Haider exposed Qazi's claim in a statement in National Assembly on October 14, 2004. He said that railways suffered a loss of 16.2 billion rupees during General Qazi's tenure. In addition, the Federal Government provided a subsidy of 10.4 billion rupees during 2001 and 2002. The actual loss, therefore, amounted to Rs. 26.6 billion that included corruption worth billions. The railways also suffered a loss of Rs. 14.16 billion during the tenure of another Railways Minister Ghaus Bakhsh Mehar, and government helped it with Rs. 16.1 billion. The total loss amounted to Rs. 30.26 billion that also included billions in corruption. It must be noted here that railway fares were increased by 30 percent during the period, while 90 million rupees were wasted away on renovation of railway rest houses. That speaks a lot about the performance of two so-called competent and honest ministers appointed by General Musharraf. Is he really proud of this performance, and does it mean end of corruption on higher levels?
Its not new, when ever a new person came into power he alwyas do this. take all the credit & blame the other person. it is nothing new. What proof did he had about this ?/ nothig he only wanted to revenge bcoz Javed Ashraf Qazi was prefered on him. the fairs of railway increases bcoz of th increas in the prices of Oil you cannot charge 10.Rs when it is costing you 20. so makin a statement that the fairs were raised is itself incorrect, bcoz it a process in which they keep changing due to the current conditions.

Foreign loans of $9 billion
Boasting about economic achievements of his government, General Musharraf also repeatedly claims of having broken the begging bowl. However, Financial Ministry sources have revealed that the government acquired nine billion dollars in loans from foreign institutions during the first four-and-a-half years of its rule. Where is the broken begging bowl of which general Musharraf is so proud?
Pakistans total Foreign loan is 39.9 bln$ from 32.7 bln$ in 1999, but by deducting the foreign reserves from it becoms 23.4bln$ bcoz the loan amount is calculated by deducting the reserves you already have, now in 1999 the original loan was 32.7 bln$ but by deducting Foreign Reserves form it becoms 31.1 bln $ in 1999 & now in 2007 our orignal foreign loan is 39.9 bln $ & deductin the foreign reserves of 16.5 bln $ it becoms 23.4 bln $ current loan so it means Pakistans loan has reduced from 31.1 in 2001 bln to 23.4 in 2007. & those who make the statements that the loan has increased the dont know about the financil terms just Martric Pass they dont know what acctuall Finance is & making statements about it.

Postponement of Mega Projects and Losses
Nawaz Sharif government had initiated a large number of mega projects including Gwadar Port, Ghazi Barotha Project, Islamabad Air Port, Pindi Bhattian-Faislaabad Motorway, Apna Ghar Scheme, Indus Highway and Makran Coastal Highway. General Musharraf put all these projects on hold after usurping power causing rise in costs, and the national exchequer was burdened with 150 billion rupees, for which he alone is responsible. Is that a laudable performance?
Now this is the Joke of the Centuary.

Gwader was started in 2001 i wonder where was NS.
May be had thought of starting the projects stated upward but bcoz of lack of money he could not start it. & not even 1 dam was started in his rule considring that Electricity will be the most distrubung factor in the economy in comming years.

Rs. 30 billion loans written off
During the first three years of his rule, General Musharraf wrote off loans worth Rs. 30 billion due from big borrowers. No democratic government in ten years could match that performance!
NS & BB both writen of about more then 120bln Rs loans what about that, was that not a democratic gov.

TEMS October 1999 February 2005 Percentage Rise

Flour Rs.8.00 per kg Rs.15.00 per kg 90%
Rs.17.00 " in NWFP
Bread Rs.1.50 Rs.3.00 100%
Sugar Rs.18.00 per kg Rs.28 per kg 50%
Tea Rs.180.00 per kg Rs.280.00 per kg 56%
Ghee Rs.54.00 per kg Rs.79.00 per kg 50%
Milk Rs.18 - 24 per liter Rs.24 - 33 per liter 33%
Milk Powder Rs.140.00 per kg Rs.190.00 per kg 36%
Mutton Rs.110.00 per kg Rs.220.00 per kg 100%
Beef Rs.60.00 per kg Rs.120.00 per kg 100%
Gas bill Rs.100.00 average Rs.240.00 average 140%
Elect. Bill Rs.100.00 average Rs.250.00 average 150%
Medicines Rs.100.00 average Rs.160.00 average 60%
Petrol Rs.24.04 per lit. Rs.42.46 per lit. 60%
Diesel Rs.9.65 per lit. Rs.27.23 per lit. 200%
Kerosene Rs.9.50 per lit. Rs.27.04 per lit. 200%
Urea Rs.280.00 per bag Rs.435.00 per bag 50%
DAP Rs.650.00 per bag Rs.1050.00 per bag 60%
Cement Rs.170.00 per bag Rs.250.00 per bag 50%
Iron Bars Rs.16000.00 per ton Rs.34000.00 per ton 110%
Bricks with
Cartage Rs.1300 per thousand Rs.3100 per thousand 135%

Claming that prices of the commodities raised too much but not going in the detail y they are, let me help you.

Prices of the commodites depend on Direct Material(which consume most of the cost) , Indirect Material(which consume small cost), Factory Over Head, (Like Electricity, Labour, tax, etc). so adding the prices of those + profit gives us a single unit price. it is not easy to say that Y prices are rising every where insted of looking on to its factors. The international events make a great impact on the regional economic factors, if there is a rise in oil , Labour , Electricity, Tax margin, the prices will automatically rise. Considering this in Pakistan in 1999 there were no steps taken towards the Power & in 2003 when the need increases it effected the economy badly so bcoz of shortage of power we have to increase the price of per unit of Electricity that effected the per unit cost of a commodity. in 1999 the average wage was around 80-90 Rs so the cost of manufacturing good was also low but in 2007 the average wage is around 270-430 so the per unit prices of the commodity increases. In 1999 the Tax collection system was very poor so businessmen skipp large portion of tax but now when Taxing rules are stricted every bidy have to pay the tax so process of the commodity increases. but bcoz the per capita income increases from 13200 per year & 1100 per month in 1999 to 55500 per year & 4625 per month cancles the effect of the rise in the price of commodities.
More the 60 mil population have mobile phones Y they are having it they are having it bcoz they can afford it. Show me any family who do not eat the food 3 time you will not be able to show me a single one. the Economic growth take 1-2 year but for economic development, it take a longe period abotut 20-25 year, so saying tahat no Eco development had happen is itself a fake comment.

& from 220 to 925 percapita income is 426.98% increase in the purchasing power of the people.

School and college fees, and prices of text books and stationary have also risen by 100 percent,
Now thats a funny comment, as i remember in 1999 when i was in School i used to pay around 70Rs per month but in now a days it is about 15Rs. if you are talking about prvate schools then you cannot control them bcoz they donot fall under this category accordinf to the constitution they are libral to choos what rules & regulation their school will follow & what prices they will charge.




Regards
Wilco
 
Transparency International (TI) is a leading international non-governmental organization addressing corruption.
home - Transparency International

Before mushy seized power pakistan was ranked 79th,In 2006 after a few years of mushy rule pakistan is now ranked 142 ,placing pakistan in the bottom quarter of the list, 22 places short of last spot.

Pakistan is less corrupt under mushy.?........another "mushymyth" busted!
 
And?
Has Musharraf not gotten rid of illogical laws discriminating against woman and minorities like Hudood?
You fool was it not zia another army guy that brought the law in.

Then your are against Pakistan Army, not against Musharraf. Keep your line of argument consistent, else your argument makes as much sense as your previous baseless "facts" whipped out of thin air such as illusionary sanctions that affected Pakistan's economy in the early 90's.

I don't see how you can say "And?" to all those pointers. Who was it that removed the discrimintory laws (forget about PA for a minute). Was it Zia, Bhutto or NS. All three had their chance to do some good and create a better society, but in every case they were too worried about votes and Mullahs. Only Musharraf has stood up to both. Saying "And" to each point is just an admission that Musharraf has improved Pakistan in each of the 4 ways I quoted.


Another substanceless post.

Just like when the indians used to say it is foreigners that are fighting from Arabic, European, Central Asian in kashmir and not the locals........idiot

And here's where you are wrong again. Get a clue on Kashmir and Pakistan demographics. India, for over a decade now, has admitted the majority of Kashmiri militants are "sons of the soil" - they are the Hizb. Successive Indian prime ministers have quoted this. The Arab, Europeans, Central Asians, Al Q have not had a presence in Kashmir. This is the standard line. The difference here is that it is Al Q in the tribal regions who are driving the fight against Pakistan, and Pakistani troops, with the support of some tribal mercenaries. It is not in anyway similar to the Kashmiri insurgency, which is Kashmiris themselves who are driving the movement against India. This is the difference. If you don't understand it, then what's the use in calling others idiots, when you can't even comprehend a simple political situation?

Of course the kaffir system is better then the muslim system......keep sucking.

And you live in the "Kaffir" system, you have plenty of other "Muslim" systems you can go to..nothing to stop you. There is no unique "Muslim system" for you information. Afghanistan had one version..I would not call it a Muslim system. Pakistan has another version. That system, created by Musharraf is more of a Muslim one in my opinion.

I thought mushy was taking his uniform off.....how many times has he lied about this one issue.

When did he lie about it? He is going to compete in elections is he not? And anyhow, what does it matter to me if he is head of Pakistan as a military man or as a civilian in a suit? ABSOLUTELY NONE is the answer. You accuse me of "sucking to the Kaafir", yet you are the one who is regurgitating exactly their media quotes such as "when will Musharraf step down from his role in PA". It makes no difference to me whether he's head of PA or not. He's just the best leader there is out there.

Why are they no NAB cases against govt officials that support him and only against anti mushy people.

Because it's a figment of your imagination perhaps? Perhaps people in Musharraf's government are a bit less corrupt than Mr 10% and co, because corruption forms the basis of those parties? If Musharraf was so corrupt, you would not have seen the FOREX reserves shoot up, or anything like the investment. And anyway, people in the Army have been convicted by NAB for the first time in history. Who do you think is more valuable to Mush, a dictator..the Armed Forces, or other political parties?

The case of Admiral Mansoor ul Haq who, at the age of 66 years, returned US$7.5 million to the Government of Pakistan as a plea-bargain is a unique event in our justice system when illegal money/assets stashed away in foreign banks have been returned to the country of origin. This is the first recorded example in the whole of Asia when a fugitive has returned looted money to the parent country through a series of national and international efforts. The morality of such a plea-bargain in Pakistan stands justified by the fact that it benefits the financial health of a developing country.
NAB, Pakistan

Your a waste of time.......not worth the effort.

The feeling is mutual. You have not provided one single fact based point in any of the routes you have tried to follow. All you quote is "hearsay" from what a friend of a friend told you. Chinese whispers from radicals are more trustworthy to you than neutral institutions, and that is why you cannot grasp what everyone, literally everyone, on this forum is trying to tell you.

Dont bother posting an answer back before you actually get some clear insight to the mushy problem.

I think I can decide when to post back. I know that you don't like the truth, and if you had your way in your "unified caliphate" you'd love to see any dissent end up heads rolling based on fictitious lies like you quote on here (a friend of a friend told me, therefore it must be true)

All you points have been answered a hundred times over,but that brainwashed mind of yours wants to keep licking american arse.

In fact, you have not answered one of my points. Here are my first 4, that you never answered (well you did, your answer was "And?" :rofl:)


  • Is Pakistan's economic growth one of the best in its history under Musharraf?
  • Has Musharraf not gotten rid of illogical laws discriminating against woman and minorities like Hudood?
  • Are Pakistani institutions not strengthened under Musharraf. For example, has there been a moment in Pakistan's history when a government lost in the courts to a bunch of lawyers, or a time when the media was so anti government? You can bet under NS or anyone, noone was allowed to bring corruption charges to court, even with lots of proof.
  • Most importantly, Musharraf has preserved Pakistan's infrastructure, and not taken your line that it would be better to be flattened by the US following 2001. Would the Ra'ad or Babur have been developed if the infrastructure had been flattened by the US? Of course not, so he has created a stronger Pakistan.
 
when musharaf was elected preident by refrndum. I was there in polling both to cast my vote. I was told that by officer you have to cast vote in favor of musharaf. I said i will not cast in his favor. He replied" we will cast your vote, you can go"
This is my personal experience.What can i say else about 98 % votes

As Jana said this is a bare-faced lie. There were international observers at those elections in 2002 from Europe, who described the elections, and even the vote counting as fair (they objected to the coverage each party got though).

Transparency International (TI) is a leading international non-governmental organization addressing corruption.
home - Transparency International

Before mushy seized power pakistan was ranked 79th,In 2006 after a few years of mushy rule pakistan is now ranked 142 ,placing pakistan in the bottom quarter of the list, 22 places short of last spot.

Pakistan is less corrupt under mushy.?........another "mushymyth" busted!

Well, you busted something, but it's something to do with the myth that you actually finally made a fact based point. Transparency International uses a perception index to determine corruption from a spread of populations (not necessarily even the home ones). So, in actual fact, what you are quoting is a perception, not anything fact based, as usual.
 
As Jana said this is a bare-faced lie. There were international observers at those elections in 2002 from Europe, who described the elections, and even the vote counting as fair (they objected to the coverage each party got though). .


The following is part of the text of President General Pervez Musharraf’s address to the nation on Monday, May 27, 2002.

"I was however getting some unofficial reports that at lower level due to unnecessary enthusiasm and carelessness, inefficiency and ignorance there might have been some improper case of voting in some areas."

That's mushy saying that there was rigging taking place during the elections.





Well, you busted something, but it's something to do with the myth that you actually finally made a fact based point. Transparency International uses a perception index to determine corruption from a spread of populations (not necessarily even the home ones). So, in actual fact, what you are quoting is a perception, not anything fact based, as usual.

No fact is acceptable that runs contrary to your pro dictatorship mentality.
 
The following is part of the text of President General Pervez Musharraf’s address to the nation on Monday, May 27, 2002.

"I was however getting some unofficial reports that at lower level due to unnecessary enthusiasm and carelessness, inefficiency and ignorance there might have been some improper case of voting in some areas."

That's mushy saying that there was rigging taking place during the elections.

That's also you not being able to comprehend the point he was trying to make, that he is against vote rigging in any form, compared to your heros that have become experts in the area. Even you caliphate would not be a democratic one, so I don't see why you're pushing so hard for democracy and criticizing Musharraf for criticizing his own democratic process. What would I want, a leader covering up these irregularities, or one voicing them. I'd want one voicing them like Musharaff.

In fact, there were hundreds of internetional observers at the 2002 elections for the first time.

The elections were observed and monitored by hundreds of local and 300 international observers, including observers from European Union and the Commonwealth, as well as local rights group.
General Elections 2002

No fact is acceptable that runs contrary to your pro dictatorship mentality.

You seem to be unable to reply to my 4 facts presented above. Name me 5 facts you have presented in your entire 800 posts. I think you'll find it difficult.
 
That's also you not being able to comprehend the point he was trying to make, that he is against vote rigging in any form, compared to your heros that have become experts in the area. Even you caliphate would not be a democratic one, so I don't see why you're pushing so hard for democracy and criticizing Musharraf for criticizing his own democratic process. What would I want, a leader covering up these irregularities, or one voicing them. I'd want one voicing them like Musharaff..


I am sure if nawaaz or BB used the same excuse it would be fine by you.




You seem to be unable to reply to my 4 facts presented above. Name me 5 facts you have presented in your entire 800 posts. I think you'll find it difficult.

Is Pakistan's economic growth one of the best in its history under Musharraf?.

As i said before your points have been answered a hundred times but they seem not register.
Just one example is your insistence on believing contatary to CNN,BBC,ABC,Reuters,AP ect that there where no economic sanctions on pakistan before mushys takeover.......something as simple as this one point you can't accept then whats the point of me wasting my time answering your loaded questions.


Has Musharraf not gotten rid of illogical laws discriminating against woman and minorities like Hudood.

A law that a dictator.... Zia like mushy who took power by force then made himself president implemented,only for another dictator to get rid off it.
Would a democratic party bring such a law in.....i doubt it ,only a dictator would have used such law.


Are Pakistani institutions not strengthened under Musharraf. For example, has there been a moment in Pakistan's history when a government lost in the courts to a bunch of lawyers, or a time when the media was so anti government?.

Are these the same courts that mushy gave the Oath of Judges Order 2000,It required the judges to take a new oath of office swearing allegiance to military rule,the ones that refused like Chief Justice Saeeduzzaman Siddiqui where forced out by mushy.........are these the actions of the one you think respects the courts so much.
Musharraf suspended the Chief Justice of Pakistan, Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry,Musharraf accused Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry of abuse of office and tried to get rid of him.....evidence turned out be untrue.........another example of mushys love and respect for the courts and judges.

Mushys love for the media is attacking it....
EmlPCkmIeg8[/media] - Islamabad Police Attack on GEO TV Office


Most importantly, Musharraf has preserved Pakistan's infrastructure, and not taken your line that it would be better to be flattened by the US following 2001. Would the Ra'ad or Babur have been developed if the infrastructure had been flattened by the US? Of course not, so he has created a stronger Pakistan..

So your saying that Nawaaz and BB would have joined al qaeda/taliban and attacked the US?
Any leader in there right mind would have done what mushy did prior to 9/11,but would have not followed his silly plan forced on him by the US of sending pak army into FATA.

I know i have wasted by time again.....i have to stop doing this.:pakistan:
 
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The Human Development Index (HDI) is the measure of life expectancy, literacy, education, and standard of living for countries worldwide. It is a standard means of measuring well-being, especially child welfare. It is used to determine and indicate whether a country is a developed, developing, or underdeveloped country and also to measure the impact of economic policies on quality of life.

Military-ruled Pakistan maintained its low ranking on a UN global development index , which concluded that non-democratic regimes fail to deliver economic growth and stability.

Pakistan ranked 138 out of 173 countries assessed by the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) for its annual Human Development Index, which measures life expectancy, adult literacy, education, and income per person.

Pakistan held the same ranking in 1999, the year in which President General Pervez Musharraf overthrew the civilian government in a bloodless coup.

Musharraf has repeatedly argued that the 11 years of democracy that preceded his overthrow brought economic ruin to Pakistan, and insisted that his military regime was necessary to restore economic growth and stability.


Life is so mush better under mushy.......
Another "mushymyth" busted!
 
The Human Development Index (HDI) is the measure of life expectancy, literacy, education, and standard of living for countries worldwide. It is a standard means of measuring well-being, especially child welfare. It is used to determine and indicate whether a country is a developed, developing, or underdeveloped country and also to measure the impact of economic policies on quality of life.

Military-ruled Pakistan maintained its low ranking on a UN global development index , which concluded that non-democratic regimes fail to deliver economic growth and stability.

Pakistan ranked 138 out of 173 countries assessed by the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) for its annual Human Development Index, which measures life expectancy, adult literacy, education, and income per person.

Pakistan held the same ranking in 1999, the year in which President General Pervez Musharraf overthrew the civilian government in a bloodless coup.

Musharraf has repeatedly argued that the 11 years of democracy that preceded his overthrow brought economic ruin to Pakistan, and insisted that his military regime was necessary to restore economic growth and stability.


Life is so mush better under mushy.......
Another "mushymyth" busted!

One cannot go from "almost failed state" to "developed nation" in no time. What is important is maintaining an improving trend, and if you look at the graph included here, it does show Pakistan continuing to improve - though of course everyone would like the slope to be steeper.
Human Development Report 2006 - Human Development Trends
 
As Jana said this is a bare-faced lie. There were international observers at those elections in 2002 from Europe, who described the elections, and even the vote counting as fair (they objected to the coverage each party got though).

Its not a lie.Its happened with me. The election officier said it to me.And its happend on out polling both. I don't know about other's. I have no need to tell a lie to you people. I am not a lier.:taz:
 
When people rush to defend General M. and his brand of Dictatorship and demean BB, Nawaz Sharif (irrespective if they were corrupt) to an outsider like me who takes democracy for granted where even Parlimentarians are not above law the message which screams in my face is that the erudite including the Generals think that comman people are not intelligent enough to choose their leaders. I would have loved it if the General Like Nelson Mendela would have spent his 5 years in strenghtening the judiciary, Election Commission and the policing in Pakistan and then like a true leader let the Pakistanis decide whether they wish Mrs BB or Nawaz Sharif as democratic leader. By doing side deals with them he has stooped to their level. I agree with Dabong that the General has lead Pakistan into a quagmire of problems like Afghanistan, USA cronyism etc but I also admit he came with the best intentions and somewhere down the line circumstances never let him complete his tryst with destiny. Frankly Pakistan has lost 5 years of valuable time.
 
As Jana said this is a bare-faced lie. There were international observers at those elections in 2002 from Europe, who described the elections, and even the vote counting as fair (they objected to the coverage each party got though).

Its not a lie.Its happened with me. The election officier said it to me.And its happend on out polling both. I don't know about other's. I have no need to tell a lie to you people. I am not a lier.:taz:

Both of you are probably correct to some extent. Dabong presented an excerpt of Musharraf's statement where he regretted some irregularities that he had heard had taken place - your experience could have been one of them, but RR and Jana are suggesting that with such a large number of international observers (and their own experiences), such irregularities were probably not widespread enough to invalidate or shift the result. Bear in mind that irregularities have occurred in U.S elections too, and our institutions and systems of checks and balances are a far cry from those of more developed democracies.
 
When people rush to defend General M. and his brand of Dictatorship and demean BB, Nawaz Sharif (irrespective if they were corrupt) to an outsider like me who takes democracy for granted where even Parlimentarians are not above law the message which screams in my face is that the erudite including the Generals think that comman people are not intelligent enough to choose their leaders. I would have loved it if the General Like Nelson Mendela would have spent his 5 years in strenghtening the judiciary, Election Commission and the policing in Pakistan and then like a true leader let the Pakistanis decide whether they wish Mrs BB or Nawaz Sharif as democratic leader..

Well Always its not that they (General) think common people are not intellegent rather its the fact that in Sub-continent the masses' psyche is exploited by the politicians and Army being part of our country is also well aware of this fact hence it exploit the same politicians in the similary manner as the political parties are doing with electorates.
Secondly in sub-continent the politics is considered a family affair so here both in Pakistan and India we see how hiarchy is being sacredly followed in politics. In other words we have politics of personalities no matter how much they are corrupt.

Due to the same politcs of personalities today you can see that every time the same corrupt leaders are elected.

If we buy this argument that Pakistanis may be not mature to elect leaders because we had seen a short spane of democracy but on other hand we see today even majority of memebers elected to Indian Parliament are having criminal record.
Similarly we see the same case in Bangladesh where they are much much better than us in Democracy even there, the same corrut faces are elected again and again.

Now would you say that their masses dont have guts to elect good people ???
NO certainly not, becuase the problem is they dont have any other choice but to elect from among the same crop of corrupt leaders.


By doing side deals with them he has stooped to their level. I agree with Dabong that the General has lead Pakistan into a quagmire of problems like Afghanistan, Frankly Pakistan has lost 5 years of valuable time.

NO i think its other way round.
mainly.

1. Army had been demonized for its role in our politics for so long and its not new if it once again jumped into politics. So it was dishonesty on the part of Benazir or NS to do side deals with the General.
They had stooped to the level of what they call dictators. If they were true lovers of democracy and wanted in its true spirit they would have join hands against Musharraf as after lawyers movemen time was very ripe for these political parties to stage a strong come back provided they were united.
Moral of the Story

Once again the same democratic politicians are reason for prolonging rule by a General
So NO need to demonize him
 
Political parties have to show some maturity and wisdom themselves as well, instead of sticking to this "personality cult". Either way you look at it, its a bunch of people (politicians) supporting and giving carte blanche to an individual (BB, NS Mushy), rather than developing institutions. Musharraf's demand was, and is, that the PPP and PML-N ditch BB and NS and develop new leadership and what do they do? They prefer to continue sniveling at the feet of their "glorious leaders", rather than show some ambition and drive to improve the structure of their parties and work for the well fare of the people of Pakistan.

Pak political parties lack internal democracy’

* US analyst says both PPP and PML-N remain frozen in the past

Dan Markey of the Council in Foreign Policy said that Pakistani political parties are “frozen in time” and have learnt little from experience. They have no specific agendas or platforms, he said. Referring to Pakistan People’s Party chairwoman Benazir Bhutto, he said she has appeared to be less concerned with Pakistan than herself. He said one of the most significant developments in Pakistan is the rise of the independent media with a 24-hour news and comment cycle.
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
 
Dear Jana,

If the Gen M is good for Pakistan then so be it. There are many successfull and benevolent dictators in the world but then proudly accept the fact that he is a military dictator and Pakistan is no democracy. Incase you want to set you sights higher than please stop giving examples from India. See westwards.

Lastly do not deport your citizens if they are corrupt try them and send them to jail. How come BB was corrupt 7 years ago and now suddenly the Gen M likes her ?

Best Regards
 
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