Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8
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Wrestling is perhaps the most effective of martial arts (yeah even tho it's not considered one)..Bruce Lee said a person training one year in boxing and wrestling can beat any master of any Asian or other martial arts discipline comprehensively (this is circa 1970s)..Since then wrestling,boxing,Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu have asserted their dominance on the world stage since UFC 1...UFC 1 was the most defining event in non-weaponry martial arts in the last 1600 years since the old Olympics ended in 393 AD (Olympics included Pankration which was an almost no rules MMA)
Now the Gunpowder empires of Ottoman,Safavid and Mughal ruled over vast chunks of Europe,Middle-East,North Africa and Asia over the high Middle Ages and the early Modern Period...Interestingly countries that are considered successor states of Ottoman and Safavid empires are absolute monsters when it comes to Olympic wrestling (Be it Free-style or Graeco-Roman)..and it's not only those countries either, but countries ruled by those empires such as Georgia,Azerbaijan (though Soviet influence may play role here)....While Indians and Pakistanis are absolute laggards in wrestling...Tiny island of Cuba has more fit, well built, fighting men than India and Pakistan combined..what's at play there ? May be a combination of superior genetics due to selective breeding during slavery as well as communist discipline? Heck the Central Asian stans have more medals than India-Pak combined..we are talking a fifth of humanity here...Now donot give me the oft-repeated hackneyed excuse that it is due to lack of infrastructure and funding that Inds/Paks donot perform well at combat sports...what infrastructure does Iran,Cuba etc have? and remember we are talking of countries that are a few orders of magntude less populous than India.....some would say its because the former gunpowder empires and soviet states just do a lot of performance enhancing drugs...my retort would be everybody does PEDS/Steroids..even Indians and Paks..why is it that the bodies of Iranians,Turks,Cubans, Uzbeks,Kazakhs are responding way better to artificial testosterone and PEDS (performance enhancing drugs) than Inds/Paks? do their bodies have more androgen receptors making more efficient use of whatever artificial testosterone that is being injected into their bodies? Punjab,Haryana in India as well as Potohar Plateau in Pakistan have vigorous scenes of homegrown wrestling , but apparently that is not enough to make a dent on the world's best stage..(as do the other former gunpowder empires)
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This brings me to my wider point..Once you cross the Indus into the East, all markers of traditional masculinity seem to go for a toss...Men are not interested in lifting, strength sports, rugby, combat sports etc...Boxing or wrestling are far less expensive than cricket still parents invest heavily in cricket coaching in South Asia ...Both Rugby (Union and League) and Cricket were introduced in India, but only one took off..Why so? What were the factors? What is it? I think its both culture and genetics
1) Genetics: It seems there is very high load of communicable diseases, parasites and as such in South Asia..that forces the body to invest in resources that can fight off diseases than invest in resources that produces more testosterone or muscles ....you see that in average Indian woman too who is much less curvy than the average Latina, white or black woman ...less masculinization and less feminization due to the absolute environmental parasitic load..Even in the first millenium of the common era,
an Arab traveller wrote that the air in China was cleaner than in India (he was visiting the Rashtrakutas)
From wikipedia:
"
Kabul's first visitor from Europe was Englishman George Forster, who described 18th-century Kabul as "the best and cleanest city in Asia".[44]"
2) Droughts: The Indian body seems to be adapted more towards fighting off drought and famines..The Indian physiology is built more for survival mode than expansion/invasion mode..For the same height, weight,BMI Indians hold more fat, less muscle and probably less bone weight too compared to any other ethnicity ..Average grip strength of Indian men is comparable to those of Nordic women..An average Indian man would be absolutely pulverized in hand-to-hand combat with the average white or black man...Vegetarianism and low-animal protein intake may also be partly responsible for this but Indians are evolutionarily better adapted for vegetarianism than any other ethnicity
Indians More Adapted to Vegetarianism
The (Physical) Strength of Nations
Ancient origins (10,000 years +) of low lean mass among South Asians and implications for modern type 2 diabetes susceptibility ------------->Published in Nature
Ethnic Variation in Fat and Lean Body Mass and the Association with Insulin Resistance
High body fat and low muscle mass are associated with increased arterial stiffness in Asian Indians in North India
Asian Indians With Prediabetes Have Similar Skeletal Muscle Mass and Function to Those With Type 2 Diabetes
Body mass index bias in defining obesity of diverse young adults: the Training Intervention and Genetics of Exercise Response (TIGER) Study
3) Culture: It seems to me cultures with extremely high population density tend to lose their masculinity..Pressure to conform and cooperate absolutely smother any masculine outburst..Indians have intentionally tried to inculcate a more mellow culture once second urbanization hit India circa 600 BCE...Heck, nobles of the warrior class like Buddha and Mahavira forsook their warrior calling and invented separate pacifist religions ...On the contrary Germanic tribes in antiquity forbade themselves from clearing the forests and forced themselves to find food only through hunting/foraging lest their warrior ethos are lost.What is more shocking to me that Buddha may have been a Scythian, (far more war like than Indo-Aryans) and still decided to invent a pacifist religion ..The high heat seems to also sap any extra energy the men might have
There are only true groups in subcontinent proper that are considered very masculine on a worldwide level: The Sikhs and the Gurkhas and that's about it...Sure there are other groups within the subcontinent that are considered relatively more masculine than the plebeian rest such as the Jatts,Gakhars,Khokhars,Rajputs,Ahoms,Marathas........but they have nowhere near the international recognition of the Sikhs and the Gurkhas
On a more controversial note, whenever you read reports of foreign women being raped in India you always find that a gang of men took down one woman..as if an Indian man is unsure whether he can on his own take on a foreign woman in hand to hand combat
But across the Indus, Pashtuns are considered some of the finest fighting men that exist on the planet today. They are living fossils of the fierce warrior cultures that existed during ancient times or pre-Industrial times..A miracle of human evolution..
They could defeat the Soviet Empire at its peak..but interestingly Chechens who are also considered fierce warriors were soundly defeated by a much weakened Russia in the second Chechen War...So Islam cannot be the cause of Pashtun success, else the Chechens would have been successful too..It seems the cause was something more innate, more genetic
Are the problems with Indian men irredeemable? Is the fate of India the same as Egypt? Egyptian men never recovered after the second conquest by the Achaemenids..They have been under one foreign dynasty after the other..The modern Egyptian state is the same as India..Both are the products of post-war Western benevolence ...The excess young fighting men lost during first and second World War meant that the white countries could no longer hold on to their possessions..India's independence was not exactly won through blood (Bose's struggle was a side theatre never to be played on the mainland)
By the way Mongolia is also a bit of laggard in Olympics wrestling compared to their much hallowed heritage, but are absolute champions in Japanese Sumo Wrestling
Combined Medal Tally for Graeco-Roman Wrestling and Freestyle wrestling at the Olympics from 1896 to 2016 (Men and women):
@Indus Pakistan @War Thunder @W.11 @Rafeh @Talwar e Pakistan @Dalit @El Sidd @gangsta_rap @halupridol
@Irfan Baloch @KapitaanAli @Naofumi @SecularNationalist @AgNoStiC MuSliM @xeuss @jamahir @Joe Shearer
Now the Gunpowder empires of Ottoman,Safavid and Mughal ruled over vast chunks of Europe,Middle-East,North Africa and Asia over the high Middle Ages and the early Modern Period...Interestingly countries that are considered successor states of Ottoman and Safavid empires are absolute monsters when it comes to Olympic wrestling (Be it Free-style or Graeco-Roman)..and it's not only those countries either, but countries ruled by those empires such as Georgia,Azerbaijan (though Soviet influence may play role here)....While Indians and Pakistanis are absolute laggards in wrestling...Tiny island of Cuba has more fit, well built, fighting men than India and Pakistan combined..what's at play there ? May be a combination of superior genetics due to selective breeding during slavery as well as communist discipline? Heck the Central Asian stans have more medals than India-Pak combined..we are talking a fifth of humanity here...Now donot give me the oft-repeated hackneyed excuse that it is due to lack of infrastructure and funding that Inds/Paks donot perform well at combat sports...what infrastructure does Iran,Cuba etc have? and remember we are talking of countries that are a few orders of magntude less populous than India.....some would say its because the former gunpowder empires and soviet states just do a lot of performance enhancing drugs...my retort would be everybody does PEDS/Steroids..even Indians and Paks..why is it that the bodies of Iranians,Turks,Cubans, Uzbeks,Kazakhs are responding way better to artificial testosterone and PEDS (performance enhancing drugs) than Inds/Paks? do their bodies have more androgen receptors making more efficient use of whatever artificial testosterone that is being injected into their bodies? Punjab,Haryana in India as well as Potohar Plateau in Pakistan have vigorous scenes of homegrown wrestling , but apparently that is not enough to make a dent on the world's best stage..(as do the other former gunpowder empires)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This brings me to my wider point..Once you cross the Indus into the East, all markers of traditional masculinity seem to go for a toss...Men are not interested in lifting, strength sports, rugby, combat sports etc...Boxing or wrestling are far less expensive than cricket still parents invest heavily in cricket coaching in South Asia ...Both Rugby (Union and League) and Cricket were introduced in India, but only one took off..Why so? What were the factors? What is it? I think its both culture and genetics
1) Genetics: It seems there is very high load of communicable diseases, parasites and as such in South Asia..that forces the body to invest in resources that can fight off diseases than invest in resources that produces more testosterone or muscles ....you see that in average Indian woman too who is much less curvy than the average Latina, white or black woman ...less masculinization and less feminization due to the absolute environmental parasitic load..Even in the first millenium of the common era,
an Arab traveller wrote that the air in China was cleaner than in India (he was visiting the Rashtrakutas)
From wikipedia:
"
Kabul's first visitor from Europe was Englishman George Forster, who described 18th-century Kabul as "the best and cleanest city in Asia".[44]"
2) Droughts: The Indian body seems to be adapted more towards fighting off drought and famines..The Indian physiology is built more for survival mode than expansion/invasion mode..For the same height, weight,BMI Indians hold more fat, less muscle and probably less bone weight too compared to any other ethnicity ..Average grip strength of Indian men is comparable to those of Nordic women..An average Indian man would be absolutely pulverized in hand-to-hand combat with the average white or black man...Vegetarianism and low-animal protein intake may also be partly responsible for this but Indians are evolutionarily better adapted for vegetarianism than any other ethnicity
Indians More Adapted to Vegetarianism
The (Physical) Strength of Nations
Ancient origins (10,000 years +) of low lean mass among South Asians and implications for modern type 2 diabetes susceptibility ------------->Published in Nature
Ethnic Variation in Fat and Lean Body Mass and the Association with Insulin Resistance
High body fat and low muscle mass are associated with increased arterial stiffness in Asian Indians in North India
Asian Indians With Prediabetes Have Similar Skeletal Muscle Mass and Function to Those With Type 2 Diabetes
Body mass index bias in defining obesity of diverse young adults: the Training Intervention and Genetics of Exercise Response (TIGER) Study
3) Culture: It seems to me cultures with extremely high population density tend to lose their masculinity..Pressure to conform and cooperate absolutely smother any masculine outburst..Indians have intentionally tried to inculcate a more mellow culture once second urbanization hit India circa 600 BCE...Heck, nobles of the warrior class like Buddha and Mahavira forsook their warrior calling and invented separate pacifist religions ...On the contrary Germanic tribes in antiquity forbade themselves from clearing the forests and forced themselves to find food only through hunting/foraging lest their warrior ethos are lost.What is more shocking to me that Buddha may have been a Scythian, (far more war like than Indo-Aryans) and still decided to invent a pacifist religion ..The high heat seems to also sap any extra energy the men might have
There are only true groups in subcontinent proper that are considered very masculine on a worldwide level: The Sikhs and the Gurkhas and that's about it...Sure there are other groups within the subcontinent that are considered relatively more masculine than the plebeian rest such as the Jatts,Gakhars,Khokhars,Rajputs,Ahoms,Marathas........but they have nowhere near the international recognition of the Sikhs and the Gurkhas
On a more controversial note, whenever you read reports of foreign women being raped in India you always find that a gang of men took down one woman..as if an Indian man is unsure whether he can on his own take on a foreign woman in hand to hand combat
But across the Indus, Pashtuns are considered some of the finest fighting men that exist on the planet today. They are living fossils of the fierce warrior cultures that existed during ancient times or pre-Industrial times..A miracle of human evolution..
They could defeat the Soviet Empire at its peak..but interestingly Chechens who are also considered fierce warriors were soundly defeated by a much weakened Russia in the second Chechen War...So Islam cannot be the cause of Pashtun success, else the Chechens would have been successful too..It seems the cause was something more innate, more genetic
Are the problems with Indian men irredeemable? Is the fate of India the same as Egypt? Egyptian men never recovered after the second conquest by the Achaemenids..They have been under one foreign dynasty after the other..The modern Egyptian state is the same as India..Both are the products of post-war Western benevolence ...The excess young fighting men lost during first and second World War meant that the white countries could no longer hold on to their possessions..India's independence was not exactly won through blood (Bose's struggle was a side theatre never to be played on the mainland)
By the way Mongolia is also a bit of laggard in Olympics wrestling compared to their much hallowed heritage, but are absolute champions in Japanese Sumo Wrestling
Combined Medal Tally for Graeco-Roman Wrestling and Freestyle wrestling at the Olympics from 1896 to 2016 (Men and women):
| Rank | Nation | Gold | Silver | Bronze | Total |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 |
| 62 | 31 | 23 | 116 |
| 2 | 
| 54 | 43 | 36 | 133 |
| 3 | 
| 32 | 20 | 17 | 69 |
| 4 | 
| 30 | 12 | 14 | 56 |
| 5 | 
| 29 | 18 | 16 | 63 |
| 19 | 
| 4 | 7 | 11 | 22 |
|---|
| 25 | 
| 3 | 4 | 10 | 17 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 3 | 4 | 10 | 17 |
| 32 | 
| 2 | 2 | 3 | 7 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 35 | 
| 1 | 5 | 10 | 16 |
|---|
| 41 | 
| 0 | 4 | 5 | 9 |
|---|
| 45 | 
| 0 | 1 | 4 | 5 |
|---|
| 56 | 
| 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | |
| 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | |
| 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | |
| 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 |
@Indus Pakistan @War Thunder @W.11 @Rafeh @Talwar e Pakistan @Dalit @El Sidd @gangsta_rap @halupridol
@Irfan Baloch @KapitaanAli @Naofumi @SecularNationalist @AgNoStiC MuSliM @xeuss @jamahir @Joe Shearer
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