Why These 3 Acquisitions are Critical for PAF:

[shah1398]

It is 5 to 7 yrs away from integration. We could play 5his game with the J10B however we must be vary that the Chinese partners are fully on board with the ploy or it might cause offence.Also we need to remember that the 16s assembly line will shut down at some stage.
Araz

Sir my basic emphasis was on availability of money. Yes J-10B is a good option but we can be part of J-31 project too and hence can manipulate our own onbaord weapons and avionics as per our ASR.But its all about money.

 

[Tipu7]

J31 deal is on wish list only. Don't consider it a final deal as J31 will need a lot of time to mature, no J31 before 2020.......
Also just compare PAF & IAF in 2010, 2016 and 2020. The power gap between both of them is decreasing, and really fast! We have successfully replaced old A5, replacing Mirages and old F7s, we will get rid of all mirage by 2017. PAF will be operating 76 F16, 150 JFT and 50+ F7PG by 2017.....and it will be a great boast in our AIR power. Considering 2020 there is room for heavy platform too. Blk 3 JFT with AESA will be in our arsenal too. By 2020 we will be operating 250 of JFT, 75 F16 & probably 2 sqd of heavy XX. IAF on the other hand is in trouble, They are retiring their old aircrafts late with out replacements available, Tejas and Rafale is in trouble. And if they clarify these deals at the end of this year then still Rafael is as far as 2017, tejas Mk1 by 2017, &Mk2 by 2022! So this decade belongs to PAF! If our economy stabilized and budget increased, then expect new exotic stuff in PAF.......hope for best people

 

[Pindi Boy]

I thought about all this and wrote the argument. Here's the current situation, Pakistan due to its air force undergoing modernization and the Army being stretched too thin, KNOWS that if a full scale war starts,it won't last for more than 2-3 weeks in it current scenario. Advancing IBG's will require a response and the Nasar will be used.

What you are missing is, the fact that if India decides to put all of the IAF, or 75% of her air assets in a war against Pakistan, you can NOT win. Its simple a much bigger and overwhelming force and PAF's 150 BVR able jets with 200 or so point defense or limited strike fighters like the Mirages, won't cut it. so the answer is......the Nasar unfortunately due to what it brings to the table.

There is a reason why multiple independent military analysts and organizations call this little tiny missile, the MOST dangerous missile developed in the South Asia. Its purpose is one and its lethality is unchallenged and it'll ruin the area. Results would be a terrible region with half the population gone and NEITHER side being able to "WIN" the war.

If you are fighting with me and I have a small Revolver with six bullets in it, and you have two machine guns with 500 bullets each, the chances are, I'll try to survive and will use my six bullets at you as soon as the conflict starts. This is the most dangerous YET real notion in Indo-Pak's scenario. And that's where your military's at!!!!

Now back to the topic of acquiring new air assets, if Pakistan has 400 4th or 4.5th gen jets, a mix of 250 JFT's (block II or III), about 100-120 F-16's and about 44 J-11D's (or 44 SU-30's or 60 FC-20's) dedicated to the PAF, your total comes to around 440+ jets, all 4th gen, (leave out the J-31 for now) + add SAM coverage to it.

This represents a quantum leap in your defensive capability. The area-denial is the name of the game. With the above Mix, IAF can not use its strike platforms through using the SU-30's, Mirages and Rafale's to provide serious ground support or air superiority.

Dealing with 400+ PAF's multi-role air-crafts', India knows that using 400 jets against Pakistan means losing 150-200 of those. THAT by itself, will push out India's regional power goals by a decade, and will make it look like a "Fake and Weak" military soup-o-powa. The cost-benefit ratio in this case is so high that it would be insane to do this and become very weak in-front of the Chinese, for the next 5-10 years, not to mention economic damage incurred worth billions!!

Now, add the Naval air arm, about 40 JFT's + 40 FC-20's (or 40 J-11D's) and serious SAM capability, you've nicely deterred the IN from doing any serious damage to Pakistan.

Also, for strike platforms, you can use non-nuclear Nasar's and Abdalis and cruise missiles with Cluster and other munitions. But a strong intercepting force would make sure the IAF never get anything close to air superiority or dominance. That will ensure serious losses to the IAF and will prolong the war in Pakistan's favor, forcing both to sit on the table.

India's objectives will always be to do large strikes and damage as much as they can, in a short fight before all world raises hell, so the "RED button" is never pressed. So a larger multi-role and interception capability would provide that. So if in a small conflict like a week long, India couldn't do successful larger scale damage, and still lost over 100 of its jets......what good was the assault to begin with? And the cost SO high??!!!!

Pakistan needs serious multi-role and interception capability, IMO, with between 400-450 advanced 4th or 4.5 gen jets. That would restore the conventional air arm balance and would stop any serious air superiority and all. Ground support can be done through standoff munitions. The world has moved on from traditional warfare.

If this was the 65, I'd be supporting strike platform needs. But with so much standoff and other missile capability, its needed to a much lower level, than interceptors to stop and damage the attacking IAF.

India will not send that 200 jets all together at one place it will b coming from places where we dont have SAMs they can't enter from lahore as Lahore is heavily armed with SAMs and other parts also have SAMs they will enter from desert parts like thar or may b the part between Lahore and multan these are two little week parts they don't have guts to go in a place which is fully loaded with SAMs now what if they enter from Thar or the part b/w multan and Lahore .... Base minhas will initially deploy it's F-7 P interceptors + Mirage to counter them and for more support Thunder can b deployed to and these parts there r air defense units hiding they will also take part F-7 Mirage and Thunder will b enough as F-7 can intercept few as in interception you don't need maneuverability u need the best head-on shooting capability and our skybolt has it our mirage has a week head-on capability but they are good at tackling enemy and they can reach the area quickly as they are the fastest jet in PAF and our thunder can do the rest of close combat then later on F-16s will b deployed but only from no-9 sqn from sargodha there are F-16 block 15 in sargodha but after MLU upgrade they have reached block-52 standard as in anatolian eagle 2008 PAF's F-16 were able to shot EFT's one of the world's known maneuverable jets ....!!!!!! this will b the first thing gona happen then ....??? THE REST OF WAR ...!!!! the counter attacks then if a full scale war brokes out BVR combat capabilities are useless ...!!!!!! you know why ?????? both countries have AESA AWACS both will jam each other's long range radars as both have radar jaming pods and bohat have A level radar jaming capabilities so what ????? both countries get their radar's jamed ...!!!! it will again come to the dog fights that prity hard turn those battle tactics , bearing extra Gs and u know ...?? u know the history we r best in dog fights no matter they have more advanced more maneuverable jets v won ..... but now we also have 8 G thunder and 9 G viper and our Jf-17 block 3 will also b 9 G fighter .............................. wait one thing i showed the use of mirage ..... mirage still can play an important role and also is very good in deep strikes and night missions so after countering them we will attack back on Endia with use of Mirage 3 rose 1 and mirage 5 E and with mighty F-16 block 52 wich will use CFT's for longer range and sniper targeting pods ................!!

 

[MastanKhan]

here the trouble is IAF pilots, for which I'm willing to bet will refuse to fly in any Indo-Pak war scenario.

Sir,

Such low regard for the enemy----that is pure ignorance and shameful.

Sir my basic emphasis was on availability of money. Yes J-10B is a good option but we can be part of J-31 project too and hence can manipulate our own onbaord weapons and avionics as per our ASR.But its all about money.

Hi,

J31 is too far away--either Pakistan needs to get another 50 to 75 F 16's or some J category plane or a SU category.

 

[araz]

Sir my basic emphasis was on availability of money. Yes J-10B is a good option but we can be part of J-31 project too and hence can manipulate our own onbaord weapons and avionics as per our ASR.But its all about money.

You did not get my post at all. What I was alluding to was a post from another poster suggesting that we should announce our interest in J31. The congress will immediately release F16s. I auggested that this may also happen if we ahowed intsrest in J0 but we woould need to keep our chinese friends on board as otherwise they will feel offended.
As to J31 the story so far as I have been able to understand it is that CATIC is looking for partners in the project mainly to inject some cash to cover the research costs. In view of the problems faced by F35 the PAF rightly feels that it does not have enough money to take that risk. We also do not have much to contribute to the project. So PAF at least for now has told CATIC that it wants CATIC to finish the project and once finished it will look at purchasing the finished product. CATIC would love to have a partner but the project is risky and PAF will not put its hands into a risky project.
Araz

 

[shah1398]

You did not get my post at all. What I was alluding to was a post from another poster suggesting that we should announce our interest in J31. The congress will immediately release F16s. I auggested that this may also happen if we ahowed intsrest in J0 but we woould need to keep our chinese friends on board as otherwise they will feel offended.
As to J31 the story so far as I have been able to understand it is that CATIC is looking for partners in the project mainly to inject some cash to cover the research costs. In view of the problems faced by F35 the PAF rightly feels that it does not have enough money to take that risk. We also do not have much to contribute to the project. So PAF at least for now has told CATIC that it wants CATIC to finish the project and once finished it will look at purchasing the finished product. CATIC would love to have a partner but the project is risky and PAF will not put its hands into a risky project.
Araz

Agreed Sir.

 

[Pindi Boy]

Sir,

Such low regard for the enemy----that is pure ignorance and shameful.




Hi,

J31 is too far away--either Pakistan needs to get another 50 to 75 F 16's or some J category plane or a SU category.

sir what u want me to say about those ...................

 

[Xenophon]

we have to buy more types of SAM.

 

[vizier]

Some friends also mentioned there is sam coverage but if those sams are not high altitude or older type of high altitude sams then either the planes fly higher than say 10km or Su30 with their ecm capability can somewhat easily jam older high altitude sam radars. It is not necessary to cover all of your land with sams but at least nuclear sites and major airbases need that kind of protection to block the possibility of high losses in a surprise attack. Also india purchased greenpine radar from israel that detects incoming ballistic missiles. their israeli transferred abm capability is very questionable. Still early warning for ballistic missiles are important again to deter a surprise ballistic attack especially when you are a nuclear state and many others dont want you to be one.

 

[Quwa]

Although the PAF has been making great strides as of late, there remain some sectors in which there must be an improvement before the end of the decade. Time and time again, we see wishlists on these forums; some of them are outrageous, and others incomprehensible. But in my opinion, there is a very strong need for 3 'game changing' acquisitions and developments which are completely attainable and not out of reach (in terms of budget, politics etc.).

1. The Original Option of 18 F-16 Block 52's

PAF must exercise its option to acquire the 18 F-16 Block 52's which were part of the original deal a few years ago. Because US congress already approved them, it would not be a matter of 'if', but rather a matter of 'when'. Also, considering that PAF has ample munitions (500+ AMRAAM C-5's, JDAM kits etc.) which are only compatible with the F-16, it would be the best option as far as adaptability and logistics are concerned.

In addition, the F-16 blk52, with the right combination of armament and equipment such as the AN/ALQ-211 EW Suite and Sniper pod (both of which PAF has) - in my opinion - is the most deadliest platform in the subcontinent.

2. Changes of JF-17 Block 2

On another note, before Pakistan keeps forcing the JF-17 down the throats of its potential customers, it should mature the platform and incorporate some of the basics which Air Forces around the world now look for.

As far as I'm concerned, PAF shed the light on the JF-17 too damn early. It should have only been introduced to defence exhibitions and major presentations around the world this year and once a good number of features which I have underlined above were implemented on to the aircraft. I have a very very strong feeling that these shortcomings are why China hasn't inducted this fighter in its fleet. The resume of this plane would have been much more convincing, powerful and dangerous once a super power had it actively deployed in its Air Force. Let's not forget that by successfully exporting this jet, both the air force, as well as the economy, have a lot to gain.

3. Long range SAM/Anti-ballistic missile defence.

While Pakistan employs a mix of Aspide-2000 and Crotale for air defence, PAF still does not have a long range surface to air missile platform. The viable option here is most probably the HQ-9/FD-2000, this system has also been selected recently by Turkey. Moreover, having such a capability can be a serious deterrent to any misadventures taken by the enemy.

I agree, though present conditions may necessitate a few changes.

The option for 18 Block-52+ may have lapsed, the PAF may need to negotiate a new deal. If funds are available, it might consider 2 squadrons of F-16Vs, essentially Block-52+ with AESA radar and improved avionics and ECM/EW suite. This acquisition could bring the newbuild fleet to its original 50~55 force.

In parallel, and perhaps with more urgency, the PAF will certainly pursue surplus used F-16s from the U.S and other countries. In addition to stockpiling on airframes for use as spare parts, I think it'll aim to bring the F-16A/B fleet to the original 100 plan set in the 1980s.

As for JF-17 Block-II. It's an incremental improvement, the real jump will be seen with the Block-III. The Block-I and Block-II will also be upgraded to Block-III (or IV) in time. With Block-III the PAF should prioritize a long-range radar and top of the line EW/ECM suite. Alan Warnes mentioned in the Paris Air Show brochure that the PAF is looking for 150-200 JF-17s, indicating that there is a Block-IV on the horizon.

If there is a Block-IV, then PAF should consider developing it with the idea of housing CFTs and a dorsal spine (at least in the twin-seat). The Block-IV line can be used as a basis for specialized aircraft, e.g. dedicated EW, strike, etc.

 

[volatile]

My list will be F-16 block52 (18) yes in any way
Block 2 thunder (this is not acqusition this will be our life line) .I would like to see J10 b with Aesa 36-48 must to counter Rafael .
Third any long range SAM

 

[Rahil khan]

Pakistan opted to go for 36 vipers which was the part of original plan outa which 18 were received which clearly means that original requirement is still there. US authorities had put a limit to the strength of 54 air crafts which could have been supplied to Pakistan outa which 36 were approved by the US congress because Pakistan ordered them. I wonder we may get another couple of squadrons...We should go for them man at any cost. Specially in a situation where we had to replace our old vipers fleet in next 15 years or so...!

 

[araz]

Pakistan opted to go for 36 vipers which was the part of original plan outa which 18 were received which clearly means that original requirement is still there. US authorities had put a limit to the strength of 54 air crafts which could have been supplied to Pakistan outa which 36 were approved by the US congress because Pakistan ordered them. I wonder we may get another couple of squadrons...We should go for them man at any cost. Specially in a situation where we had to replace our old vipers fleet in next 15 years or so...!

There is always a time frame where you can take up the order. It seems that for us the time has elapsed. SO the deal will need to be renegotiated.
Araz

 

[Abingdonboy]

Only advantage IAF have over PAF is numbers... and no one can change the fact that the probability of survival increase if the numbers are increased, here the trouble is IAF pilots, for which I'm willing to bet will refuse to fly in any Indo-Pak war scenario.

I've heard it all now.....

IAF on the other hand is in trouble, They are retiring their old aircrafts late with out replacements available, Tejas and Rafale is in trouble. And if they clarify these deals at the end of this year then still Rafael is as far as 2017, tejas Mk1 by 2017, &Mk2 by 2022! So this decade belongs to PAF! If our economy stabilized and budget increased, then expect new exotic stuff in PAF.......hope for best people

Big talk.

The Rafale by 2017 is just 2 years away- the PAF has no answer.

The LCA will be inducted within 12 months also.


And what about the 300+ Su-30MKIs? You have no answer to this MASSIVE threat, this force alone would decimate your AF, the Rafales and LCA can remain in their hangers.

This decade belongs to Pakistan? Within a decade India's economy will be worth $5 TRILLION USD and will be inducting the FGFA, how can you possibly believe this decade belongs to Pakistan??

 

[Quwa]

I've heard it all now.....



Big talk.

The Rafale by 2017 is just 2 years away- the PAF has no answer.

The LCA will be inducted within 12 months also.


And what about the 300+ Su-30MKIs? You have no answer to this MASSIVE threat, this force alone would decimate your AF, the Rafales and LCA can remain in their hangers.

This decade belongs to Pakistan? Within a decade India's economy will be worth $5 TRILLION USD and will be inducting the FGFA, how can you possibly believe this decade belongs to Pakistan??

MMRCA was 2 years away in 2003, 2005, 2007, 2009, 2011, and 2013 as well.

As for the MKI. It is a formidable threat, yes, but the PAF isn't hopeless against it. The Flanker is an elephant as far as its RCS is concerned, and the AMRAAM and SD-10 are serious issues for it just as much as the MKI is for the planes on the other end.