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Why 'secular' Narendra Modi bashers must be ignored

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And Mr.JanjaWeed, why don't you fight to death? Don't play victim of rape after having fun with your so called rapist.
once again stereotypical argument. sounds very noble! having personally experienced the kind of corruption from the high & mighty, i know an ordinary person like me had two choices. either ruin my career by fighting till death with the might of power or surrender to save myself & my career. looks like if you were in my place, you would have sacrified your career & cozy life to fight this till death. my morality is inferior to your's. we need more like you!!
 
The reason being anyone disliking congress and favoring BJP automatically becomes communal.

You have wandered into a common cause of confusion, common to both the BJP and the Sangh Parivar on the one hand, and to the Congress and its rag tag and bobtain retinue of pseudo-seculars on the other. Communal relates to bigots, specifically to religious bigotry. This is the hallmark of the RSS and its Sangh Parivar. It is not necessarily the hallmark of the BJP, except as far as the private and personal views of some of its leadership goes.

The BJP is a dangerous organisation for India, just as the Congress and the CPI(M) are dangerous. But the BJP has its own toxicity to purvey, and it doesn't happen to be the toxicity of the Congress or the CPI(M); it is essentially different. It is a fascist ideology that the party follows, related to but not identical to the communalism of its social and religious arms. The BJP's hallmark is a deliberate and sustained acting beyond the rule of law, of denying the application of judicial and administrative process, and of seeking the support of its committed adherents in street actions, like riots and assaults, sometimes assaults with deadly weapons. In the BJP's book, violence is normal, not abnormal; wherever it has no power, no state or administrative power, it resorts to extra-constitutional violence.

When it comes to power, it follows the principles and philosophy of fascism with remarkable consistency.

You are invited to compare the party's methods with the methods recommended by fascist ideology - rather than plead the absence of resources, look up fascism in Wikipedia, at least - and see for yourself whether or no their tactics and political practices are innately fascist or not.

Therefore the danger with disliking the Congress or the CPI(M) and liking the BJP is the danger of being sucked into a fascist organisation without being fully aware of the ramifications. It has little with communalism, except that, as in the case of the original fascists in relation to Jews and to the Gypsies of Indian origin, a minority is convenient to blame for all the failures and setbacks of economic, social, administrative, foreign and even military policy.
 
What???? I thought he was best CM that punjab had.
A slight dot on his image and he resigned without even the completion of enquiry.

Why cant we have him back???

Of course you can have him back. Whether you should have him back or not is a different matter; explaining that will take more than a short note, and you won't read more than a short note, if we are to go by your earlier sarcastic comment.

Perhaps the best solution is for you and those who are like-minded to keep on voting for the autocrats now in power, and shrug off their depredations and their lining of their own pockets as a tax to be paid for better administration - strong administration as you seem to prefer it.
 
Yeah right.

What happened to the "I'm out of the discussion part" ?

Bird Brain it is.

Heck they should make strict rules about only 18+ being allowed here and keep a strict watch for Double IDs if the quality of discussion is to be maintained.

Yup, speaking of birds........oh well, nvm..

Ontopic- BJP , like joe says has always towed the fascist idealogy. Their agenda is quite clear when you look at them without a muddled head. How many times have they tried to mobilise the people to somehow 'subdue' the minorities? They tried peddling their crapware all over india until they finally realised, majority indians dont give a rats a$s for communal politics. Yet they try even today...albeit, in a roundabout manner.

BJP is a flawed party whose existence is no longer justified in 'rising india'. We are a nation that takes prides in our 'unity in diversity' . Alienating minorities will end up being severely counter-productive to india.

At any given day, if asked to choose between congress or BJP, i will go for congress in a heartbeat; simply because they are lesser of the two evils.

Its high time fascist elements like the BJP are removed from india. And as for modi, he should remain quarantined in gujarat indefenitely.

Offtopic - Would the 'quality' of discussion be maintained if everyone said "all hail king modi", unanimously?!
 
The fact is that Politics and Religion are joined at the hip. Politics is about ruling people. And that means you first need to get a grip on what really rules the masses - Religion. Both parties do it, so neither side has the right to act all sanctimonious about it - be it the Congress Muslim vote-bank politics or the BJP and its Hindutva/ Ram Rajya. Not that its ever going to stop either side from attempting to climb to the top of the ivory tower and denouncing the other. We need call a spade a spade and say it out aloud. India is truly secular not only because Muslims (and other minorities) want it , but because the Hindus do. It is not difficult to imagine modern India with close to three-quarters of a billion Hindus were that not the case. It is a fact of life and acknowledging it does not make anyone less of an Indian. It so happened that in 1947 till today, there was and continues to be mass buy-in amongst the Indian masses for the concept of secularism, and for that we are all responsible and can take equal credit for.

I agree with you,india stays secular because of the broad mind of the hindus and indias culture...........India was always a mix of culture........India want it to stay Secular and diverse.

Political parties has always try to divide people for vote........They play caste & religion base politics to hold on to power

Congress-Anti-sikh riot
BJP -Babri Masjid & gujrat riot
Congress party was at center during babri masjid case during Babri masjid incident.......They didnt take any action to prevent incidenteven with intelligence warning.......
They tried to make profit out of it and turned a blind eye......But things went opposite direction and they never truely did have any influence in UP after the incident.......


So no parties are truely saint..but atleast we can maake sure the key minister & PM to be good ........Lets keep the tainted people from power......
 
My points regarding Congress vs BJP:-

Why I dont like Congress as-

1) They dont do anything and even dont try to do good things in India. They have full rights for almost 60 years and a country with such caliber can come up very early in world Map but Congress made it to fail. Then there wrong policies like following-

i) Hurried decision of Partition (I feel Mr Jinnah was less responsible than Mr Nehru and other Congressians)
ii) Reservation (Which needs to be end in 50 yrs has been enehanced for infinte time now and too with additions in 90's)
iii) Kashmir Decision and Action which affects us core
iv) 62 China war which can be easily avoided if Nehru does it sensibly
v) Non Aligned Movement (when sleeping with USSR, what is point of making such association. Eithr stuck up on one)
vi) Operation Blue Star ( While there was agitation, If Indira Gandhi leaves her ego then situation would be better then and now)
vii) Never thought of progressing our NE states and caused uprising there
viii) Rajeev Gandhi went against decision of his mothers in case of LTTE and created a ruckus. he should listen other officials.
ix) Late liberalization?? When China did it in 70-80s why we were waiting for it??
x) Begining of Corruption and making it Giant (Started with 1947's Jeep corruption till CWG/2G etc)
xi) Family Dynasty rule
xii) No support of GoI industry, Most of PSUs are dead now..
and a lot more

Why I hate/like BJP

Hate
i) The biggest reason, I hate BJP is adding religion to the Politics. If they would not have done what they did in 1992, They would be much better.

Like
i) They are nationalists. Think of country first is in Blood due to RSS and hence when they were in govt they took some harsh decisions to revive economy like connecting roads to the word, Thinking of NE states and talking to neighbours
ii) No dynasty, Everyone is entitled for opinion and hence will be executed (saw the case of Jaswant Singh)
iii) Their foreign policies are more viable, clear and aligned to India's interest
 
You have wandered into a common cause of confusion, common to both the BJP and the Sangh Parivar on the one hand, and to the Congress and its rag tag and bobtain retinue of pseudo-seculars on the other. Communal relates to bigots, specifically to religious bigotry. This is the hallmark of the RSS and its Sangh Parivar. It is not necessarily the hallmark of the BJP, except as far as the private and personal views of some of its leadership goes.

The BJP is a dangerous organisation for India, just as the Congress and the CPI(M) are dangerous. But the BJP has its own toxicity to purvey, and it doesn't happen to be the toxicity of the Congress or the CPI(M); it is essentially different. It is a fascist ideology that the party follows, related to but not identical to the communalism of its social and religious arms. The BJP's hallmark is a deliberate and sustained acting beyond the rule of law, of denying the application of judicial and administrative process, and of seeking the support of its committed adherents in street actions, like riots and assaults, sometimes assaults with deadly weapons. In the BJP's book, violence is normal, not abnormal; wherever it has no power, no state or administrative power, it resorts to extra-constitutional violence.

When it comes to power, it follows the principles and philosophy of fascism with remarkable consistency.

You are invited to compare the party's methods with the methods recommended by fascist ideology - rather than plead the absence of resources, look up fascism in Wikipedia, at least - and see for yourself whether or no their tactics and political practices are innately fascist or not.

Therefore the danger with disliking the Congress or the CPI(M) and liking the BJP is the danger of being sucked into a fascist organisation without being fully aware of the ramifications. It has little with communalism, except that, as in the case of the original fascists in relation to Jews and to the Gypsies of Indian origin, a minority is convenient to blame for all the failures and setbacks of economic, social, administrative, foreign and even military policy.

Fascist ideology by definition has a authoritarian sitting on the top, i don't see that happening either in BJP nor RSS. RSS internal democratic process is more democratic than that of Indian democracy. I will articulate my point later.
 
Latest updates on Modi:

04_02_2011_011_003.jpg


Report indicts Modi on several accounts, including shunting out cops trying to stop riots, destruction of documents.
 
SIT report indicts Modi in Gujarat riots - Hindustan Times

HT Correspondents, Hindustan Times
Ahmedabad, February 03, 2011


In a severe indictment of Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi for his alleged role in the 2002 post-Godhra massacre, the Supreme Court-appointed Special Investigation Team (SIT) has held that he failed to control the riots in which more than 1200 people were killed. In its 600-page report, accessed by weekly Tehelka, the SIT has indicted Modi on several counts such as taking a partisan stance, discriminatory attitude, failing to condemn the violence, destruction of documents with evidentiary value and shunting out police officers who tried to prevent the riots. The Supreme Court in April 2009 had asked the SIT headed by former CBI director RK Raghavan to investigate the complaint of Zakia Jafri into the murder of her husband Ehsan Jafri, a former Congress MP who was among the 69 people killed by rioters in Gulberg Society.

The SIT report, dated May 12, 2010, said Modi, despite attacks on Muslims, tried to water down the seriousness of the situation by saying that every action had an equal and opposite reaction. It said Modi’s implied justification of the killings suggested a partisan stance at a critical juncture when the state was badly disturbed by riots.

It also indicted the Gujarat police for “patently shoddy investigations in Naroda Patiya and Gulberg Society massacres cases”. Rioters killed more than 100 people in Naroda Patiya.

In an “extremely controversial” move, the report said Modi placed two ministers Ashok Bhatt and IK Jadeja — whose cellphone records showed they were in touch with rioters — in control rooms of Ahmedabad city police and Gujarat state police during riots with no definite charter, fuelling speculation that they were sent to interfere in police work and give “wrongful” decisions.
 
I agree with you,india stays secular because of the broad mind of the hindus and indias culture...........India was always a mix of culture........India want it to stay Secular and diverse.

Political parties has always try to divide people for vote........They play caste & religion base politics to hold on to power

Congress-Anti-sikh riot
BJP -Babri Masjid & gujrat riot
Congress party was at center during babri masjid case during Babri masjid incident.......They didnt take any action to prevent incidenteven with intelligence warning.......
They tried to make profit out of it and turned a blind eye......But things went opposite direction and they never truely did have any influence in UP after the incident.......


So no parties are truely saint..but atleast we can maake sure the key minister & PM to be good ........Lets keep the tainted people from power......

Your fallacy, a fallacy shared by both BJP and Congress supporters, for obvious reasons, is that we have a zero-sum game between Congress and BJP, and no alternatives. Certainly, all sane political opinion will discount the communist left, which has displayed its complete readiness to abandon the interests of common citiznes for the sake of some obscure doctrinaire principle; people sense the innate contempt that the communists have for the common man, the individual, and they reciprocate it in hearty measure. Kerala has already learnt how to manage these creatures; Bengal is learning.

But beyond political parties per se, there is a possibility of an opinion and a political way of thinking beyond the traps of either pseudo-secularism or of crypto-fascism, which has a tendency to become open whenever an opportunity to rule is granted. This is the liberal option. It is an option which can be exercised by individuals without forming a separate political party, and it is one which is available irrespective of the symbol that one selects in national or in state elections. A liberal need not commit himself or herself to either of the two mainstream parties listed, but may reserve his allegiance and exercise it according to circumstances, in order to preserve and further the liberal idea of politics in the most advantageous manner.

This is also the least tainted of the ideologies, of either the pseudo-secular, 'single-nation', ideology of the Congress, which insists on clubbing all religious sections together, and of acknowledging each and every one in each and every act of public life, with disastrous results to the secular spirit; or of the non-secular, openly majoritarian, equally 'single-nation' ideology of the Sangh Parivar, interpreted politically by the BJP, which acknowledges only one religion and seeks to further it at the cost of every minority, on simplistic grounds which leave its apologists floundering for logical support on every occasion. A liberal essentially understands India as being multi-identity, with each individual taking on an identity in different contexts; so that the same person may act as a Parsi, as a Mumbaikar, or as an Indian, depending on the context. A liberal also believes that these identities are to be ignored in the course of public action and governance, and that all Indian citizens are to be treated uniformly, with exceptions for cases of those who have suffered visible and sustained disenfranchisement for centuries, and who are therefore given counter-vailing privileges and rights to set right these denials of opportunity. Apart from this exception, no consideration of religion, culture, language or ethnicity will determine the treatment accorded to any citizen.

Where does leave us vis-a-vis parties and politicians? Exactly where we are today, with the difference that we are now informed to seek among these politicians and parties those who are closest to liberal ideals, and to back them by whatever means are available. Recent events in India should have shown that the reservoir of liberal opinion is not totally helpless, and has active political options. Civil society per se is a weak and watery alternative to political organisation; however, faced as we are by political parties which are abject vehicles of their members' cupidity and greed, rather than instruments for realising the hopes and aspirations of citizens, there is no harm - there is every justification - to take advantage of the combination of civil society and of contemporary methods of mobilisation of public opinion to put tremendous and sustained pressure on the politicians. At all times, not just at election time. This is not a substitute for the political system, it is an adjunct, an additional, a supplementary measure, intended to keep the normal machinery of government and administration cleansed and working as it should. It is a necessary condition, but not sufficient; other measures will also be required, and these are not known yet; they are likely to be discovered as the discussion on our governance continues.
 
SIT report indicts Modi over 2002 Gujarat riots | TwoCircles.net

Here are a few of its key findings:

1. The report says, 'The chief minister had tried to water down the seriousness of the situation at Gulberg Society, Naroda Patiya and other places by saying that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.' (Page 69 of the report)

The enquiry officer also notes: 'His (Modi) implied justification of the killings of innocent members of the minority community read together with an absence of a strong condemnation of the violence that followed Godhra suggest a partisan stance at a critical juncture when the state had been badly disturbed by communal violence.' (Page 153) SIT chairman RK Raghvan further comments that Modi's statements were sweeping and offensive coming as it did from a chief minister, that too at a critical time when Hindu-Muslim tempers were running high.' (Page 13 of Chairman's comments)

2. The report says, in an extremely 'controversial' move Modi had placed two senior ministers-Ashok Bhatt and IK Jadeja, whose cell phone records showed that they were in touch with rioters-in the Ahmedabad city police control room and the Gujarat state police control room during the riots with 'no definite charter', fueling the speculation that they 'had been placed to interfere in police work and give wrongful decisions to the field officers.'

3. The report affirms that police officers who took a neutral stand during the riots and prevented massacres were transferred by the Gujarat government to insignificant postings in a highly 'questionable' manner (Pages 7-8 of Chairman's comments).

4. The report says 'The Gujarat government has reportedly destroyed the police wireless communication of the period pertaining to the riots.' It also adds, 'No records, documentations or minutes of the crucial law and order meetings held by the government during the riots had been preserved.' (Page 3)

5. The report says Modi displayed a 'discriminatory attitude by not visiting the riot-affected areas in Ahmedabad where a large number of Muslims were killed, though he went to Godhra on the same day, travelling almost 300 kms on a single day.' (Page 67)

6. In a highly unethical move, the report confirms that the government appointed VHP and RSS-affiliated advocates as public prosecutors in sensitive riot cases. The report states: 'It appears that the political affiliation of the advocates did weigh with the government for the appointment of public prosecutors.' (Page 77)

7. According to the report, the Gujarat government did not take any steps to stop the illegal bandh called by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad on 28.02.2002. On the contrary the BJP had also supported the bandh. (Page 69)

8. The SIT report also says that, in an inexplicable move, the police administration did not impose curfew in Naroda and Meghani Nagar (Ahmedabad city) until 12 and 2 pm respectively on 28.02.02. By then, the situation had severely deteriorated at both places.

9. The SIT discovered that the state police had carried out patently shoddy investigations in the Naroda Patia and Gulberg Society massacre cases and deliberately overlooked the cell phone records of sangh parivar members and BJP leaders involved in the riots.

10. The SIT has also found evidence against the then minister of state for home Gordhan Zadafia (who was reporting directly to Modi) and tops cops like MK Tandon and PB Gondia for his complicity in the riots. (Page 168, 169)
 
Fascist ideology by definition has a authoritarian sitting on the top, i don't see that happening either in BJP nor RSS. RSS internal democratic process is more democratic than that of Indian democracy. I will articulate my point later.

Those are purely for the sake of demonstration of an organisation, with the trappings of organisational culture. Like all fascist bodies, the RSS depends on the appointment of a Sarsanghchalak purely at the will and desire of the previous Sarsanghchalak. Let us not dignify this with the label of democracy. You may articulate your point at any time; this basic characteristic is on record and is historical, and is not easy to disguise.
 
Whenever Modi goes out the reality of his "success" would be visible to all. The argument that he is a monster but a benevolent person is an age old justification. Every such criminally insane person manages to keep himself looking economically beneficial till the moment he falls and by then its too late. I think Modi's reality will come to light when he is made PM and thus I hope he does get made PM.
 
Whenever Modi goes out the reality of his "success" would be visible to all. The argument that he is a monster but a benevolent person is an age old justification. Every such criminally insane person manages to keep himself looking economically beneficial till the moment he falls and by then its too late. I think Modi's reality will come to light when he is made PM and thus I hope he does get made PM.

One Good or Bad decision does not make a person doomed forever. Life gives second chances to everyone and those who learn from their mistakes and try to improve them makes them man of history. NaMo did what his personal choice was against "those" who "brutally" planned to kill people in a train attack. He can be rejected and can never come out of those mode when whole world was poiniting finger towards him. He made a choice later on and changed Gujrat totally with Social/ Economical culture. If we point a finger for his decisions in 2002 then we should also be open hearted to praise him for what he did in Gujrat.
 
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