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Why Pakistan MUST consider Afghan civilians as its own

@Mrc @khanz @Ace of Spades @Azadkashmir @Kambojaric

Gentlemen, we need to distinguish between the anti-Pakistan elements in Afghanistan, and common civilian Afghans. In indiscriminate shelling/rocketing, how can we ensure the safety of the common people? Would we do the same in Pakistani areas with civilians around?

The fact is, overwhelming show of force is just that: a show. It is a feel good mechanism that has not produced results in the past, and will not do so in the future either. We need a vision, and a strategy towards that vision. The vision MUST be the unification of Afghanistan (or at the very least, Pashtun majority areas) as a protectorate/province of Pakistan, with corps raised under the auspices of the Pak Army. In order to attain this vision, we simply CANNOT afford to alienate a very proud population who do not forget injustice for multiple generations.

In order to establish ourselves as a responsible power, we need to adopt mechanisms that ensure swift and powerful justice against exactly those who are the culprits. Such a strategy can involve monitoring, video surveillance, drones, sniper fire, drone attacks, special forces etc.

But there is one more, extremely disturbing element to this. Is this shelling being done as part of an anvil and hammer strategy in sync with NATO forces? If that is indeed the case, then we are only shooting ourselves in the foot. Foreign forces would love to create hostility against Pakistan in the minds and hearts of people all over the region. Any request for Pakistan to attack with overwhelming force and risk innocent lives MUST be seen through the lens of high suspicion.

In this regard, it is insightful to look back at the Mongol invasion. A Christian priest actually ingratiated himself in the court of Genghis Khan, and was given much authority in planning. This cunning man devised a plan in which Muslim towns would be surrounded and besieged. After some time, a messenger would be sent, proclaiming the besieging forces would like to send a fact finding mission to see if there is enough water supply. If so, they wouldn't waste their time any more and go away. Under this pretext, they would come in and measure water reservoirs using sticks that were hollow in the inside, and would inject poison in the water supply. This would weaken the defences and the town would be captured. But most importantly, the prisoners from these towns would then be made to fight against Muslims of the next town.

Let us now review the situation today. An extremely well off and developing Muslim country, i.e., Iraq, was pushed into war with another Muslim country Iran, preoccupying them with war for many years. International powers made money supplying weapons to both sides. And then made even more money, supplying not just weapons to Arabs, but also putting their own forces in their countries. Over the past few decades, we see a repeated pattern, which in recent times is showing itself through an escalation of hostilities between Saudi Arabia and Iran.

In this context, Pakistan MUST choose its battles very carefully. It is said that battles and won and lost in the planning. Just because we can pummel a country with overwhelming force, doesn't mean we MUST or that we SHOULD. We MUST ensure we are NOT making new enemies, and work effectively against the ones who really are.

@Khafee @Goenitz


very thought full and insightful post...

I only have reservation on use of word indiscriminate shelling... as 500 shells in a civil area wud have led to few thousand deaths.....

the reason for shelling may be that's its easily and readily available response to militant build up... there is no hammer and anvil here.... caz anvil ( afghan / allied forces) are simply not there in afghan provinces bordering Pakistan for more than 6 years now... area is under daesh/ ttp control mostly....

I agree with the essence of your post.... but indefinite love will not solve problems.. there have to be a carrot and stick policy.... stick can be less loud and more accurate I agree
 
Problem is not with the people of Afghanistan. The problem lies with the central identity of the nation of Afghanistan. The idea that their "original" country was much bigger is an idea their establishment is fixated with, and they have literally driven their country into disaster in search of this elusive "greater Afghanistan".

Even the "pro Pakistan" Taliban never recognized the border with Pakistan because they knew the major stakeholders in their country would denounce them as traitors and weaklings. One can be loving and peaceful only to the extent that there is a basic level of reciprocity.

That is not to say that we should engage in extreme hostility towards Kabul. Annexing parts of Afghanistan as some members suggest is something out of the question in the 21st century, unless the majority of the populace in a region supports the change in borders. Such acts would only worsen the situation.

However to command basic respect you have to set some basic rules. Our land is our land, full stop. Pakistan has adopted a "loving" approach for the past 60-70 odd years, and how far has that gotten us with Afghanistan. If anything as the gap between our nations has widened, their jealousy and envy has only worsened the situation. Trust me I have been to Afghanistani mosques here in Europe, and they openly denounce Pakistan in their Khutbas, so shamelessly have they intertwined religion with illusions of ethnic grandeur.

The Pakistani state from the very beginning has hidden the hostility of Afghanistan from Pakistan civilians, in the hope that Kabul would grow some sense eventually and decide to move on from the 17th/18th century. However in the age of the internet, nothing can be hidden from the general populace, which is why many Pakistanis are now reacting the way they are.
We ought to expose their ethnic chauvinism to their fellow Muslim "brothers"

@Mrc @khanz @Ace of Spades @Azadkashmir @Kambojaric

Gentlemen, we need to distinguish between the anti-Pakistan elements in Afghanistan, and common civilian Afghans. In indiscriminate shelling/rocketing, how can we ensure the safety of the common people? Would we do the same in Pakistani areas with civilians around?

The fact is, overwhelming show of force is just that: a show. It is a feel good mechanism that has not produced results in the past, and will not do so in the future either. We need a vision, and a strategy towards that vision. The vision MUST be the unification of Afghanistan (or at the very least, Pashtun majority areas) as a protectorate/province of Pakistan, with corps raised under the auspices of the Pak Army. In order to attain this vision, we simply CANNOT afford to alienate a very proud population who do not forget injustice for multiple generations.

In order to establish ourselves as a responsible power, we need to adopt mechanisms that ensure swift and powerful justice against exactly those who are the culprits. Such a strategy can involve monitoring, video surveillance, drones, sniper fire, drone attacks, special forces etc.

But there is one more, extremely disturbing element to this. Is this shelling being done as part of an anvil and hammer strategy in sync with NATO forces? If that is indeed the case, then we are only shooting ourselves in the foot. Foreign forces would love to create hostility against Pakistan in the minds and hearts of people all over the region. Any request for Pakistan to attack with overwhelming force and risk innocent lives MUST be seen through the lens of high suspicion.

In this regard, it is insightful to look back at the Mongol invasion. A Christian priest actually ingratiated himself in the court of Genghis Khan, and was given much authority in planning. This cunning man devised a plan in which Muslim towns would be surrounded and besieged. After some time, a messenger would be sent, proclaiming the besieging forces would like to send a fact finding mission to see if there is enough water supply. If so, they wouldn't waste their time any more and go away. Under this pretext, they would come in and measure water reservoirs using sticks that were hollow in the inside, and would inject poison in the water supply. This would weaken the defences and the town would be captured. But most importantly, the prisoners from these towns would then be made to fight against Muslims of the next town.

Let us now review the situation today. An extremely well off and developing Muslim country, i.e., Iraq, was pushed into war with another Muslim country Iran, preoccupying them with war for many years. International powers made money supplying weapons to both sides. And then made even more money, supplying not just weapons to Arabs, but also putting their own forces in their countries. Over the past few decades, we see a repeated pattern, which in recent times is showing itself through an escalation of hostilities between Saudi Arabia and Iran.

In this context, Pakistan MUST choose its battles very carefully. It is said that battles and won and lost in the planning. Just because we can pummel a country with overwhelming force, doesn't mean we MUST or that we SHOULD. We MUST ensure we are NOT making new enemies, and work effectively against the ones who really are.

@Khafee @Goenitz

I concur that it would be foolish for Pakistani to invade/bomb indiscriminately Afghanistan. This is what the Merchants of Venice and their RSS lapdogs would want but... repatriation and effective border management will be seen by the common Afghan as "oppression" against them

Also the common Afghan despises the idea of Pakistan. This predates Bharati propaganda.
 
Above 2 million Bengalis are also living in Pakistan. In total 5 million illegal immigrants are living in Pakistan with Afghans being 2.5 million. The problem is that those Afghans are not patriot and terrorists are also present within those refugees. And Afghanistan itself is involved in sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan so how come we support those refugees?
 
ظفر آدمی نہ جانیئے گا اسے، ہو وہ کتنہ ہی صاحب فہم و ذکا
جسے عیش میں یاد خدا نہ رہا، جسے طیش میں خوف خدا نہ رہا

Transalation:
Zafar, don't consider him a man, no matter how erudite and learned
Who forgets God in luxury, who fears not God in temper

Comprehension of Hadith of Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi wa Aalihi Wasallm
The stronger man isn't the one who can submit another. The stronger man is the one who can control his temper.

The recent rocketing of Afghan territory by Pakistani forces is deeply disconcerting. Such acts establish Pakistan as a bully and hegemon in the minds of ordinary Afghans, who are already down-trodden and pummelled from all sides. And it provides the enemies of Pakistan the perfect opportunity to come in and proclaim: we are the best friends of Afghans, we can make this stop.

Having seen many online posts, I can surmise there is a widespread belief amongst Pakistanis that we can somehow dissociate ourselves from the Afghan mess. That, the border can be somehow tamed and a line drawn to keep the unwanted on the other side. This belies the ground truth and the reality of the situation. The topography of the Durand line makes a mockery of any attempts at establishing and enforcing a border. But even more importantly, it is the deep seated desire of people living on either side of the Durand line to be able to navigate freely across it, as they have done for centuries. And because the people's will is so, thus it shall be so, even if it takes centuries to become so.

The multiple failures of international powers at controlling and taming Afghanistan indicate clearly that the local population will never submit to them en masse. Yet, not even the Taliban can deny that development in the form of infrastructure, industrialization, education, and governance is the need of the day. The only worldly power that can provide this to Afghans is Pakistan. Thus, Pakistanis MUST remain cognizance of their status in the region and proceed accordingly. Establishing the tenet that every Afghan life is as precious as a Pakistani life, based on both religious and human grounds, would cost us little, yet increase our prestige in the eyes of the common Afghan. And for Pakistan, an understanding and welcoming Afghan population provides a much needed strategic depth that we shall never find in Iran. I am amazed how this simple point is lost to everyone, top down.

What cannot be conquered through guns and missiles, can always be conquered with pure love. The question is, are our hearts big enough for tough love?
I think border should remain open..Let any body cross whoever wish it..Don't check as this is against human rights..There should be no visa requirement for anyone wants to come Pakistan..I believe we should handover the territories to Afghanistan as they claim so that they started to like us..It is the will of people they don't accept durand line and believe it is belong to Afghanistan until attock..I think there is no need for Pakistan..India is also not happy and there public is against us..We should hand over Kashmir to them..
Will i get afghan nationality ?or they will allow me as a Muslim brother to settled once they regain the areas ?
This lady (afghan refugee) born in Pakistan, got scholarship on Pakistani tax payer in France now a days and studied in Pakistan..Wish to claim there land from Pakistan
..

There is another one who demand the same studied in Peshawar and working in Khyber TV, born and educated in Pakistan does not wish to leave but break away part of Pakistan..I think you agree with both of them
 
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Luckily the appetite among Pakistanis for granting citizenship to Afghan refugees is zero. During my recent visit to Pakistan I spoke to relatives and the common man on the street. Pakistanis are sick and tired of Afghans roaming everywhere. From our beautiful mountains of Chitral and Gilgit Baltistan to our major cities of Karachi, Peshawar and Islamabad. These Afghans have occupied every inch of Pakistan. They are growing like mosquitoes and harbor extreme hate for Pakistan whilst living here. They don’t hide their hatred and display their Afghan flags on our streets and in our neighborhoods. I witnessed the extreme bigotry first hand. By the way, these are Afghans who were born and bred in Pakistan. There is nothing to reason here and this is a lost cause. Afghans are by nature disloyal and a hostile people. Afghans don’t even accept each other.

I can tell you that Pakistanis are extremely accepting and hospitable people. Had this been another country, you can be rest assured that Afghan skulls would have been smashed to the ground. NO ONE WOULD ACCEPT DISLOYALTY FROM A BUNCH OF CAVE PEOPLE.

Additionally Afghans are a major security risk for Pakistan. They are being used in various terror attacks by India due to their natural hatred for Pakistan.

The best thing is to repatriate as many Afghans as possible and shut the border. There can be no talk of citizenship etc. Afghanistan claims that Chabahar will save them. We have nothing to worry about. Afghanistan will take care of itself. Also, America, NATO and India will save Afghanistan. In short, Afghanistan isn’t Pakistan’s problem.

Afghans inside Pakistan are a disaster is the making. The sooner we get rid of this incredible problem the better.
 
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ظفر آدمی نہ جانیئے گا اسے، ہو وہ کتنہ ہی صاحب فہم و ذکا
جسے عیش میں یاد خدا نہ رہا، جسے طیش میں خوف خدا نہ رہا

Transalation:
Zafar, don't consider him a man, no matter how erudite and learned
Who forgets God in luxury, who fears not God in temper

Comprehension of Hadith of Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi wa Aalihi Wasallm
The stronger man isn't the one who can submit another. The stronger man is the one who can control his temper.

The recent rocketing of Afghan territory by Pakistani forces is deeply disconcerting. Such acts establish Pakistan as a bully and hegemon in the minds of ordinary Afghans, who are already down-trodden and pummelled from all sides. And it provides the enemies of Pakistan the perfect opportunity to come in and proclaim: we are the best friends of Afghans, we can make this stop.

Having seen many online posts, I can surmise there is a widespread belief amongst Pakistanis that we can somehow dissociate ourselves from the Afghan mess. That, the border can be somehow tamed and a line drawn to keep the unwanted on the other side. This belies the ground truth and the reality of the situation. The topography of the Durand line makes a mockery of any attempts at establishing and enforcing a border. But even more importantly, it is the deep seated desire of people living on either side of the Durand line to be able to navigate freely across it, as they have done for centuries. And because the people's will is so, thus it shall be so, even if it takes centuries to become so.

The multiple failures of international powers at controlling and taming Afghanistan indicate clearly that the local population will never submit to them en masse. Yet, not even the Taliban can deny that development in the form of infrastructure, industrialization, education, and governance is the need of the day. The only worldly power that can provide this to Afghans is Pakistan. Thus, Pakistanis MUST remain cognizance of their status in the region and proceed accordingly. Establishing the tenet that every Afghan life is as precious as a Pakistani life, based on both religious and human grounds, would cost us little, yet increase our prestige in the eyes of the common Afghan. And for Pakistan, an understanding and welcoming Afghan population provides a much needed strategic depth that we shall never find in Iran. I am amazed how this simple point is lost to everyone, top down.

What cannot be conquered through guns and missiles, can always be conquered with pure love. The question is, are our hearts big enough for tough love?
This is the most stupid thing I ever read on PDF, why would we consider them as Pakistani when they hate us from the core of their hearts, further why you want that after getting Pakistani nationality they stop playing in the hands of NDS and R&AW? as soon as they get nationality they will start free Pakhtonistan staruggle by joining hand with traitor like Asfandyaar.
 
They are also Muslims Pakistanis are also Muslims so eachother must consider as their own citizen :)
 
muslim or not... every Pakistani comes first before ummah nonsense..

ISLAMABAD, July 7: The Muslim Ummah should strengthen itself by returning to its roots and by forging unity among its ranks keeping itself aloof of the differences of sects, regions or colours.

The politicians, retired generals and spiritual leaders expressed these views while speaking at a seminar 'Struggle for Unity of the Ummah and Stability of Pakistan' organised at the National Library on Thursday by 'Islahi Jamaat and Alami Tanzeemul Arifeen', an organisation formed by the descendents of famous Sufi saint Sultan Bahu.

PML-N's Raja Zafar-ul-Haq said that unity among the Muslims was a prerequisite for strengthening the Islamic world as well as Pakistan.

https://www.dawn.com/news/642357
 
ISLAMABAD, July 7: The Muslim Ummah should strengthen itself by returning to its roots and by forging unity among its ranks keeping itself aloof of the differences of sects, regions or colours.

The politicians, retired generals and spiritual leaders expressed these views while speaking at a seminar 'Struggle for Unity of the Ummah and Stability of Pakistan' organised at the National Library on Thursday by 'Islahi Jamaat and Alami Tanzeemul Arifeen', an organisation formed by the descendents of famous Sufi saint Sultan Bahu.

PML-N's Raja Zafar-ul-Haq said that unity among the Muslims was a prerequisite for strengthening the Islamic world as well as Pakistan.

https://www.dawn.com/news/642357
Good for them... the new generation doesnt give a shyt...
 
ISLAMABAD, July 7: The Muslim Ummah should strengthen itself by returning to its roots and by forging unity among its ranks keeping itself aloof of the differences of sects, regions or colours.

The politicians, retired generals and spiritual leaders expressed these views while speaking at a seminar 'Struggle for Unity of the Ummah and Stability of Pakistan' organised at the National Library on Thursday by 'Islahi Jamaat and Alami Tanzeemul Arifeen', an organisation formed by the descendents of famous Sufi saint Sultan Bahu.

PML-N's Raja Zafar-ul-Haq said that unity among the Muslims was a prerequisite for strengthening the Islamic world as well as Pakistan.

https://www.dawn.com/news/642357
Today even in KPK,Balochistan... they afghani refugees are despised.... their national cricketers are beaten for making anti Pak statements in universities....
People dont even rent them houses... and much more... the reasons are their own doing.

so you know more than these learned people?
Learned people? old crooked politicians? Yeah...

If so , why do i see you chawals crying about Mamta Banerjee and other indian politicians?
 
I dont claim to be learned enough to know all the facts. In a democratic system elections speak the verdict.
Neither can you about a country you havent set foot in, nor will..

A random MPA/MNAs words of muslim brotherhood is as good as yours.... As for elections.... yes, ones that are rigged?
 

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