Why Pakistan is in trouble?

[muse]

Had you given any attention to what i have written, used some comon sense and removed the cloak of sarcasm and biasness you would have seen that though there is no mention of internal dynamics but they are still very much visible inside the article.

Rathe i must say they are SHOUTING out!

The only purpose of wasting my time in writing this piece of paper was to make you and others like you understand that what all that is happening in Pakistan which you refer as internal dynamics is a direct outcome of the Western policies

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That's entirely unreasonable, you now require your readers to assume that which you have not presented as part of your exposition, indeed, this is silly and novel.

As for your contention that that internal dynamic are an outcome, or function, if you like, of external dynamics is yet again, plain silly. You would have your readers imagine that pakistanis are mere puppets whose strings are pulled by obscure external players -- this is the klind of silly, simplistic worldview that robs Pakistanis of self respect and the possiblity of devising solutions to their own problems.

Are Pakistani policies and personalities effected by the policies of actors and institutions outside Pakistan? Well, certainly, but how does that mean that therefore Pakistani policies and personalities are automatons, puppets?

See, if you continue to view Pakistanis are victims, who bear no responsibility, who are acted upon, you will seek solutions not in Pakistan, but in far away places, where such ideas provoke bouts of pity and revulsion.

You ask why the murderous Bugti decide to become a problem after 9/11? Easy, he miscalculated, his first attemtp at blackmail paid off, because Musharraf actully paid him off - it was Musharraf's mistake, he should have effected an arrest and hopefully Bugti, given his proclivity, would have attempted to evade arrest, and the law would then do what had to be done.

After Musharraf Paid him off, Bugti GAMBLED, that he could secure more from Musharraf, and that Bugti bet wrong - No grand conspiracy reuired to answer that. Bugti saw Musharraf in a tight spot, decided to squeeze him, succeeded once, tried it again and failed.

Pakistan is in charge in Pakistan, the choice of which action, which policy to adopt was and is, in Pakistan.

Your next point - Afghanistan is ruined?? Yes, it was paradise during the Talib regime, with Afghans so desperate that they preferred to live in refuge camps in Pakistan, eating govt rations, but at least eating, rather than be in Afghanistan -- Sir, I encourage you to make sense. There are people from Pakistan now seeking work in Afghanistan - money does that to people who take responsibilty for their lives

You ask "

Ever noticed why didn't something happened inside the States after 9/11..??"

A conspiracy, possibly? No, sir, they are serious about safe guarding the public, they seem to have got in their heads that the public right to be safe is greater that the terrorists "right" to terrorize and that govt must not abdicate it's responsibilty to it's citizens (the meaning of which you may ask inmates of Swat)

You say crime in tribal areas was low -- of course you have conveniently or may be not, forgotten that through the entire history of Pakistan the tribal areas were smuggling havens and you are also misinformed about it not being terrorism to not pay taxes, to demand services and threaten insurrection when asked to pay.

Sir, really, I have not a doubt that you care deeply about Pakistan and seek to define solutions, but I am sure you will agree that defining the Pakistani as a will less, brainless victim, is not the way to go about it.

 

[Xeric]

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That's entirely unreasonable, you now require your readers to assume that which you have not presented as part of your exposition, indeed, this is silly and novel.

As for your contention that that internal dynamic are an outcome, or function, if you like, of external dynamics is yet again, plain silly. You would have your readers imagine that pakistanis are mere puppets whose strings are pulled by obscure external players -- this is the klind of silly, simplistic worldview that robs Pakistanis of self respect and the possiblity of devising solutions to their own problems.

Are Pakistani policies and personalities effected by the policies of actors and institutions outside Pakistan? Well, certainly, but how does that mean that therefore Pakistani policies and personalities are automatons, puppets?

See, if you continue to view Pakistanis are victims, who bear no responsibility, who are acted upon, you will seek solutions not in Pakistan, but in far away places, where such ideas provoke bouts of pity and revulsion.

You ask why the murderous Bugti decide to become a problem after 9/11? Easy, he miscalculated, his first attemtp at blackmail paid off, because Musharraf actully paid him off - it was Musharraf's mistake, he should have effected an arrest and hopefully Bugti, given his proclivity, would have attempted to evade arrest, and the law would then do what had to be done.

After Musharraf Paid him off, Bugti GAMBLED, that he could secure more from Musharraf, and that Bugti bet wrong - No grand conspiracy reuired to answer that. Bugti saw Musharraf in a tight spot, decided to squeeze him, succeeded once, tried it again and failed.

Pakistan is in charge in Pakistan, the choice of which action, which policy to adopt was and is, in Pakistan.

Your next point - Afghanistan is ruined?? Yes, it was paradise during the Talib regime, with Afghans so desperate that they preferred to live in refuge camps in Pakistan, eating govt rations, but at least eating, rather than be in Afghanistan -- Sir, I encourage you to make sense. There are people from Pakistan now seeking work in Afghanistan - money does that to people who take responsibilty for their lives

You ask "

A conspiracy, possibly? No, sir, they are serious about safe guarding the public, they seem to have got in their heads that the public right to be safe is greater that the terrorists "right" to terrorize and that govt must not abdicate it's responsibilty to it's citizens (the meaning of which you may ask inmates of Swat)

You say crime in tribal areas was low -- of course you have conveniently or may be not, forgotten that through the entire history of Pakistan the tribal areas were smuggling havens and you are also misinformed about it not being terrorism to not pay taxes, to demand services and threaten insurrection when asked to pay.

Sir, really, I have not a doubt that you care deeply about Pakistan and seek to define solutions, but I am sure you will agree that defining the Pakistani as a will less, brainless victim, is not the way to go about it.

First i will encoutge you to stop comoaring Pakistan with a world power.

We don;t even comne near it...may it be anything, the education system, the basic necessities, budget, economy, military any damn thing.

If they can spend millions to provide their labors and workers to comply with the safty protocol people in Paksitan are even reading to climb up an electric pylon without even wearing gloves, and you compare Pakistan with teh Western standards of security, damn you are lame.

On one side people like you complain of spending 80% of budget on the military(all the services-not only Army) and then you also say of making the securtity foolproof.

These things require techonlogy, and technology require money. Do you even know how much a square foot of blast resistnace wall barrier cost? If the americans can even cover their washrooms in field with miles of those barriers we can't even afford of even covering our HQs with thyem in the field. And you claim that they have been safe because of their standrads, damn right they have been safer, but with Money!!

Now you said the Pakistan is ruled by Pakistan, yes it is, but the problem is that a few dollars in someones pocket in our country can even make him turn over his father. The total amount of money that we spend on our nation don;t even total up to the amount that is require to clean up sewer systems in California (remeber the old report on this??)

How much it take for a senetor, an MNA, an IGP , a beurcrate to work against the intrest of the country. A few million bucks!!

Do you think a poor chap who is not even getting two times food would say no to 100 bucks if he is asked just to blew up a transformer inside Balovhistam. i know kids who were paid Rs 100 for just to throw stones on military convoys, i know people (who now have been rehabilitatted by the Army and given jobs in gas filed and coal mines) who used to place a mine which killed 10s just for Rs 4000?- WTF!!

That dude even never knew what he was doing and for whom and against whom!!

i knew people who blew up the gas pipelines over a dinner!! We once got hold of one and he told us that i m given Rs 50/- and some food to eat at night for my services to blew up the gas pipeline, and to my surprise that guy didn't even know what this huge steel pipe is known as and what does it carry inside!!!! Come one genius!!

With this kind of social fabric you expect people to be loyal to the country!!

All it takes a few bucks for a common man, a few in 5 figures for a bureaucrat, and a few millions for people like Mulana Fazal ur Rehman and Pakistan is no more in charge of itself. Got it!

Say thanks to the merit bases system of the Armed forces all the personnel in the airforce, army and navy are still away from these kind of temptations otherwise we the Pakistanis would have been sitting somewhere else. i don't say everybody else is a mole, there are black sheep everywhere, even in the military but the thing to understand is that if it take a million to 'buy' someone in American it takes a 100 to do the same in Pakistan! And there goes your Pakistan being indirectly run by 'others'

 

[Xeric]

Sir, really, I have not a doubt that you care deeply about Pakistan and seek to define solutions

And yes one more thing, don't you ever dare again of blaming me of being not sincere to Pakistan!!

Moreover, i forgot why Pakistan would require patriots as people like you who have been living in the idealized world outside Pakistan would sell everything there, leave their families and all the luxuries of life and come here to fight the extremists till they become martyrs!!

 

[muse]

Easy Enigma - it's just a critique, it will help your paper be better. Caring as deeply as you do requires a critical mind set.

And you don't have a clue as what I do, what we do is not as different as you may think and are islamists in the cross hairs, you bet.

 

[Xeric]

Easy Enigma - it's just a critique, it will help your paper be better. Caring as deeply as you do requires a critical mind set.

Yes it do require a critical approach but not a biased one. Sometimes its better to look at the other side of the picture or atleast use a different angle.

And you don't have a clue as what I do, what we do is not as different as you may think and are islamists in the cross hairs, you bet.

Well i am not interested in knowing either, though i was mistaken considering you a fellow buddy because of you designation here.

 

[kamal1470]

It's a very informative and well researched article, though i must admit that i skipped, a bit, on the non-pakistani related parts, sorry for that.

Do agree with you on a great game being played, and many of your assertions here are correct.

As far as the internal dynamics is concerned, i now look to the Pakistan Army to secure Pakistan, expect it to. We are facing multi-dimensional threats, converging near simultaneously, on our country. But for me, and as Muse pointed out, is that gorilla of islamic militancy, and my specific, though limited, concern has been on that issue, on my posts here, on this website.

Sir! indeed, perceptions are very important and the perception, i am sad and disturbed to convey, is about our Armed forces.

There are conspiricies and many subtle and hostile tactical moves, against our country. A lot of us are cognizant of that fact. But the perception,and a dangerous one at that now, is that there is something hazy, about the way the armed forces are conducting themselves.

Now anyone who has some doubts, or apprehensions is not anti pakistan, believe me. What concerns me most is that will the army protect me and my family? It is a very basic question.

On my part, What will be my reaction if i see soldiers of our army in trouble, or in a tight spot? will not hesitate for a second to help!

The perception, of protection by the armed forces has been badly eroded in swat. Sir, believe me on that, as i have some friends who were there during the conflict. And this perception, is the most significant internal dynamic, i believe.

If the people, of a country, however patriotic, start to doubt the capability of its armed forces, then disaster follows in its wake!

So, by any means necessary, the armed forces should instill the confidence in the populace, as we look to the armed forces in dangerous eventualities!

A majority of people have no faith, whatsoever in the politicians, so it is extremely important for the Armed forces to exude the true image of a protector, of the people of pakistan.

Until that happens, and until people have an unwavering faith in its armed forces, nothing sustainable or positive will be achieved.

I just thought it appropriate to share my views, and i did not mean, in the slightest, to offend, in any way. just a concerned citizen, who is very worried about the unfolding negative events in my country.

 

[Xeric]

Well before we further discuss the issue at hand let me tell you one thing.

It is said and rather rightly said that if you want to destroy something, target its strong points, so if you want to destroy a country destroy its basics-its strong points.

If someone wants to do something bad to india one has to taget it Secular Syatm and Democracy, becuase these two are the strengths of india. Everything in idia revolve around these two factors.

So, now, if someone wants to harm Pakistan it has to target two things-its strengths-and these two being: The Religion (Islam) and the Army.

Weaken the roots of these two and you'll get a weakened Pakistan!

What all that have been happening only directs at harming the above mentioned sectors, and it is obvious.

Army has gone bad, the same Army which was once the heart and soul of all has to save its face. The religion that we all share has been dubbed as a problematic reliogion. The religion that means 'peace and submission' has been declared 'dangerous'

i am not arguing about what all wrong is being done by the followers of this religion or the people who form part of the Army, but the point to ponder is that where all this leading us to.

How cleanly and sophisticatedly both these have been targeted and today they both stand at a different place.

The ISI which was and is considered as the most potent of all has been dubbed as a 'friend' of people and the phenomenon that haunt the world today.

So ultimately this all is leading down us to one thing-a battle for our survival.

If the Tribals are let loose then people complain that why the government can't control them, if they are busted then people start worrying of 'innocents'

If then again the hard hand is backed off people again worry of giving the hard liners another chance of re-organising, on the other hand when again use of force is recommended people show their concerns over their actions.

We got get our heads cleared and got to have a unified direction, if we want to get out of this mess.

 

[muse]

You have mention the two strong points of Pakistan that are compeling for you - While the fauj is or was, a constant, the religion promoting state is not - Pakistanis know they are Muslims, they don't need any Arab, or the army or the state or whatever coming over and radicalizing them and promoting murder and mayhem in the name of the religion of peace -- WORDS MUST MEAN EXACT THINGS -- religion of peace must be peaceful, adherents of the relgion of peace must be peaceful - otherwise it is an Orwellian disasater.

I would suggest the strongest Pillar for Pakistan is the connection between the Pakistani and the Pakistani state, the system of education from which he or she derives his or her value and ethical system - we need to focus on this connection, we now know that the Fauj has abandoned us and we know that the state is in the hands of those whose self interest comes beforfe that of Pakistanis - hooray democracy.

And that's what we all want, a unified direction, without the BS of relgious indoctrination, religion is matter between the believer and Allah - let Allah have a job, Mullah has robbed Allah of even that.

For the Pakistani to once again discover the Fauj as his friend and guardian, the Fauj must be his friend and guardian.

This business in Swat, this did not go down well, and Kiyani was being feted by Arabees while ordinary Pakistanis heads were being severed by Islamist terrorists. Well OK a message was sent to the politicans and the Americans, but what message was sent to the ordinary Pakistanis - that we on our own, the army would prefer to not have casualties and worse still, that the army was in collusion with the Islamist terrorists.

Any direction that includes islamists or their ideology is a non-starter for Pakistan -- overwhelmingly from Pakistanis you will hear that if the islamist's islam is Islam, they want no part of it ---- now you can blame foreigner for this, but why would not blame the Islamist for this and why you would not blame authorities such as ISI for this, is, beyond me. All our successes are our all our failures, somebody elses'??

 

[Xeric]

You have mention the two strong points of Pakistan that are compeling for you - While the fauj is or was, a constant, the religion promoting state is not - Pakistanis know they are Muslims, they don't need any Arab, or the army or the state or whatever coming over and radicalizing them and promoting murder and mayhem in the name of the religion of peace -- WORDS MUST MEAN EXACT THINGS -- religion of peace must be peaceful, adherents of the relgion of peace must be peaceful - otherwise it is an Orwellian disasater.

If that is what you think then my friedn i mjust suggest you to read more about our religion.

Who said that Islam is bring in mayhem and promoting muder and radiclizing the siciety?

It is not Islam. It the people who is following Islam wrongly, and are promoting a wrong comprehension of Islam.

If tomorrow the Christians strat doing as today Islamic fundamentalist are doing would say that Christianity is promoting extrimism? or for that matter any other religion that fell in the hands of 'bad' people.

So you cant blame the religion for it.

Even if one family member do something wrong you cant blame the entire family of it, what to talk about the religion that it follows and the country they live in.

Someone on the forum has opened a thread regarding Sufi Muhammad claiming to impose sharia all over Pakistan, well if he is talking about the sharia that the Talibans and he has been following in Afganhistan and Swat respectively then sorry sir they need to be kicked, because this is not the true face of sharia that Islam talks about.

Saudi Arab you may say is following the right way sharia.

Nobody not even the West has blamed Islam for anything, all know that it is the WRONG understanding of the religion and that is mainly due to thick headiness and lack of education and enlightenment.

I would suggest the strongest Pillar for Pakistan is the connection between the Pakistani and the Pakistani state, the system of education from which he or she derives his or her value and ethical system - we need to focus on this connection, we now know that the Fauj has abandoned us and we know that the state is in the hands of those whose self interest comes beforfe that of Pakistanis - hooray democracy.

Rightly said except for the abandonment by the Army.

Let me clear this for once an all....Army or any other army of any other country don't operate at its own, it receives directions from the policy makers, that includes a long chain-the CM, the Governor, up to the PM and the President.

You tell the Army to screw it will do it, you ask the Army to have a soft handed approach it would follow it. You ask the Army to come back it would do the same.

Army went into Swat not because some bumpy General was waiting to flex its muscles, it went there because the Provincial Government asked the Army.

For you information the Army under the Constituion of Pakistan has to act in the AID OF CIVIL POWER when requested by the Civilain Governmnet.

A simple example can be:
A gruop of idiots are making a mess around somewhere, the Police tries to tackle it but fails, the responsible chap may be the DCO or whoever calls in Ranger, they fail and ultimately the Army is asked for intervention. The Army is then given parameters to operate, whether to kick hard the arses of anyone who hinders the process of bringing back the peace or should the Army just make use of 'threat of use of force' so that people can calm down.

But once the DCO or anyone signs that piece of paper and hands over the job to Army then its the Army and the other side, unless the Army is asked back to hand back the control.

So sir, don't blame someone who is not making the policy, go and ask the President why did he ask the military to back off.

What are you talking about! The dilemma with us is that we don;t have a direction. The Central Government says that we will not a state within state to operate (the imposition of sharia in Swat) but the Provincial government argues that it should imposed as it has been there since long.

The PM says that we will take to task the people who killed 3 women in Balochistan a few months back and Mr CM says that its not a problem and this is our tradition, wow, what a high standard of unity we have here!

And then guess what the Army gets to blame in the end with a cry that it has abandoned its people..isn't it lovely!

And that's what we all want, a unified direction, without the BS of relgious indoctrination, religion is matter between the believer and Allah - let Allah have a job, Mullah has robbed Allah of even that.

Now you are talking some sense

For the Pakistani to once again discover the Fauj as his friend and guardian, the Fauj must be his friend and guardian.

They still are, no Army is an army without the support of its people.

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

I'm sure the 'real' Sharia, whatever it is, is fine and great and works perfectly. However, this is the 21st century and any country which wants to progress has to move beyond these religion-based laws.
You admire the Chinese so much so why not learn from them? They've thrown religion out of the equation completely and its paying them dividends.

 

[Xeric]

I'm sure the 'real' Sharia, whatever it is, is fine and great and works perfectly. However, this is the 21st century and any country which wants to progress has to move beyond these religion-based laws.
You admire the Chinese so much so why not learn from them? They've thrown religion out of the equation completely and its paying them dividends.

Thnx for the suggestion, but sorry sir we don't keep religion out of nothing.

We are going to stick with it for ever.

Religion is there to stay in our society.

BTW, why don;t you recommend the Saudis the same, i bet they might like to reconsider

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

Well, who would have thought that Italy, the very heart of Catholicism would be a democracy?
And yet they managed it. They confined the remnants of the Holy Roman Empire to a tiny "Vatican City" and built the modern Italian state around it.

I'm quite sure such a solution is possible in Saudi Arabia, as much as in Iran, if there is a popular movement in support of it.

 

[Xeric]

Well, who would have thought that Italy, the very heart of Catholicism would be a democracy?
And yet they managed it. They confined the remnants of the Holy Roman Empire to a tiny "Vatican City" and built the modern Italian state around it.

I'm quite sure such a solution is possible in Saudi Arabia, as much as in Iran, if there is a popular movement in support of it.

Lolz... well the problem is that there is no active and popular support for such kinda stuff on this side of the globe.

So till then chill!

 

[Bane Blade]

Lolz... well the problem is that there is no active and popular support for such kinda stuff on this side of the globe.

So till then chill!

Their would be if people were educated enough.

 

[muse]

It is not Islam. It the people who is following Islam wrongly, and are promoting a wrong comprehension of Islam.

If tomorrow the Christians strat doing as today Islamic fundamentalist are doing would say that Christianity is promoting extrimism? or for that matter any other religion that fell in the hands of 'bad' people.

So you cant blame the religion for it.

Please, please do not use this argument - it is weaker than water - I know where your heart is and what you mean to convey, but please don't use this argument.

Tomorrow someone will say communism isn't bad but rather some people made it bad -- then you will be in the position of having to argree that it is not buggery that is bad but that some buggers have given it a bad name.

There are better arguments, leave that one in the trash bin.

Religion is what it's adherents practice - If it is not, then the religion does not have any adherents. See once again we are back to taking responsibility for our experience.

If there are these horrid islamists, who allowed them to grow in number, who allowed their training? who allowed them to be armed? who allowed them to organize, who ENABLED them? Well, we must accept our responsibility, it is the only way we move forward and learn from these traps.

To Musa his deen, and To Essa, his - but if either gets murdeous ideas, we nip it in the bud, applies for any who presume to defy us in our house.


See, Enigma, either we are Muslims or the islamist terrorists, we cannot both be muslims and while we make a claim that we are adherengts of the religionof peace, the other half, the evil twin, goes out wrecking, creating havoc --- Who are the real Muslims and what does it mean to be a Muslim? We need to inject a certain urgency to answers to these -- we have to pressure people to decide, are we Muslims or the islamist terrorist? Right now, it is a luxury, I can se a time soon when others will decide for us - and of course we will not be able to blame them for our procrastination


Shari'ah - my favorite topic and we will have plenty of opportunity to discuss what it is and is not and must not be. I always find the word IMPOSITION that goes along with Shari'ah for some, very interesting -- These seem to have forgotten that DAWA and IMPOSITION are contradictory - as if we will stuff the halls of heaven by force - it's a curious and silly idea.

Swat and Army

Army went into chase the crazies away and keep Pakistanis safe, at least that is what they told us - and what did it do, abandoned Pakistanis so their women can be publicly lashed, it's men robbed of Mardanegi, it's elders of their heads --- SHAME !!!, SHAME!!! While Kiyani ate the food of the Arab!! Shame.

For the people to be on the side of the army, the army cannot be playing politics, cannot be abdicating it's SACRED DUTY to SAFE GUARD PAKISTANIS - a faith , a bond was broken when the army abandoned the Pakistanis of Swat and gave them over to the Islamist terrorist - It is for the Army to win back that faith, to mend that broken bond.

DCO or Premier, Army Knows it duty or not? See above for clarity with regard to duty - it is the Prime, the first duty of the Army.


Democracy and Goverance
On other threads others and I have advocated that the Army should never have conceded political space to the same political game that has been getting us into hot water for over 60 years -- Pakistan needs a system - democracy is a fine method and we hope to practice it but no tinthe Westminster style -- on the world affairs you will find a thread "what is India" and on the China board in teresting threads, the hope was to interest Pakistanis to break out of the cage of Westminster, a Pakistani system must be efficient, transparent, but not with rules of the game such that the politicians will destabilize each other every quarter. It must be a system, like that of China, from which we derive political stability, efficiency, effective representation and bloodless smooth transitions of power -- what else is the method of democracy?