why pakfa trumps rafale heavily............

[senkakudefender]

i am touching larger issues here

point is our foolish planning of trying to induct rafale and pakfa at same time

either u agree with me or not.pls specify

The point in article is wrong regarding t-50 6 as in russian forums reliable sources say that t-50 6 will be a static model for stealth testing only and t-50 7 will be final version

Regarding l band,,,the point is pakfa has a main huge aesa,,,,2 side looking dedicated aesas for ground attack and l band for unknown reason for the time being.The point i am making is that it pakks or will pack way more punch than what a rafale can ever do



pls don't try to show urself as the only educated person here

fiscal year ir a vague term

we are talking about months here and i am unhappy about the speed of signing the contract

am i wrong to assume that delivery will start in mid 2017??

if no then should we be happy??

Deal is critical, it will be signed, if not this govt then next. NDA FTW.

 

[Dillinger]

i am touching larger issues here

point is our foolish planning of trying to induct rafale and pakfa at same time

either u agree with me or not.pls specify

The point in article is wrong regarding t-50 6 as in russian forums reliable sources say that t-50 6 will be a static model for stealth testing only and t-50 7 will be final version

Regarding l band,,,the point is pakfa has a main huge aesa,,,,2 side looking dedicated aesas for ground attack and l band for unknown reason for the time being.The point i am making is that it pakks or will pack way more punch than what a rafale can ever do



pls don't try to show urself as the only educated person here

fiscal year ir a vague term

we are talking about months here and i am unhappy about the speed of signing the contract

am i wrong to assume that delivery will start in mid 2017??

if no then should we be happy??

I am stating, unequivocally, that you are incorrect.

I have tried to elucidate the concepts of operational doctrine and the net centricity of warfare numerous times. An effort which seems to be wasted so I shall not endeavor on that vein again.

Static testing for structural changes just before pre-production model fab. Please shoot me! The detailed design phase for the air frame is done and over with, only RAM/RAS and LO port optimization (maybe) can occur now. Something that should be fundamentally self-evident. Unless someone at the MoD has lost all sense and decided to try and alter this basic set-up, in which case several hoops will have to be jumped through and the project will get delayed, this is how things will fall into place.

Fiscal year is not a "vague term". The deal will go through, once the MoD feels like it, at the end of this fiscal or the beginning of the next fiscal.

If you wish to touch upon some broader topic, such as long terms acquisition planning and force structure planning then open another thread with that as the main agenda instead of a X is better than Y thread.

 

[he-man]

I am stating, unequivocally, that you are incorrect.

I have tried to elucidate the concepts of operational doctrine and the net centricity of warfare numerous times. An effort which seems to be wasted so I shall not endeavor on that vein again.

Static testing for structural changes just before pre-production model fab. Please shoot me! The detailed design phase for the air frame is done and over with, only RAM/RAS and LO port optimization (maybe) can occur now. Something that should be fundamentally self-evident. Unless someone at the MoD has lost all sense and decided to try and alter this basic set-up, in which case several hoops will have to be jumped through and the project will get delayed, this is how things will fall into place.

Fiscal year is not a "vague term". The deal will go through, once the MoD feels like it, at the end of this fiscal or the beginning of the next fiscal.

If you wish to touch upon some broader topic, such as long terms acquisition planning and force structure planning then open another thread with that as the main agenda instead of a X is better than Y thread.

ur wish man

who cares,,,,when all indians even u are in supreme denial

in next 10 years we will realize this mistake of trying to develop 3-4 platforms simultaneously with a puny defence budget of 35 billion.

china has a budget of 180 plus billion

russia has about 150 billion

we have 35 billions



and we are trying to develop more platforms than them simultaneously??!!

if that looks doable to u then i would say good luck to ur wishful thinking

pls don't mind my words,,i respect ur intellect but i have to disagree with ur above assessement

 

[he-man]

@Dillinger

can u pls tell me the status of tejas ioc-2??

 

[Dillinger]

ur wish man

who cares,,,,when all indians even u are in supreme denial

in next 10 years we will realize this mistake of trying to develop 3-4 platforms simultaneously with a puny defence budget of 35 billion.

china has a budget of 180 plus billion

russia has about 150 billion

we have 35 billions



and we are trying to develop more platforms than them simultaneously??!!

if that looks doable to u then i would say good luck to ur wishful thinking

pls don't mind my words,,i respect ur intellect but i have to disagree with ur above assessement

Fundamental mistakes-

1) We are trying to develop more platforms than China or the US- not even remotely- the whole spectrum of projects running in these two countries would dwarf anything India has undertaken in the last 20 years.

2) The LCA or the Aura have their separate outlays and allocations, which have been on track. As such the outlay for the Rafale isn't an one time lump sum payment but spread over 13 years.

3) If you wish to lament about the inaction of the MoD, start by asking them why a certain LOA which has been in their possession since March has not been released to the concerned OEM so far.

There is no denial here at all, I am just not given to jumping the gun without familiarizing myself with the issue properly. Last time you brought up this topic albeit in a thread lamenting about the massive fleet of the PLAAF, I had asked you a simple question, find out the force deployment in the Chengdu MraF, had you done so (among other things, i.e. similar exercises wrt other sectors and fronts) perhaps you would have been able to then ascertain (in part and in the microcosm of a specific sector) why the IAF is doing what it is doing.

@Dillinger

can u pls tell me the status of tejas ioc-2??

Not yet unless the RM is going to push the IAF into changing procedures. TACDE is yet to get their hands on the bird, only the RM can circumvent that process.

 

[IND151]

The cost of buying and maintaining a 5th generation aircraft is significantly higher than a 4.5 gen. Just look at the cost of maintaining the F-22. A huge fleet of 5th gen fighters needs enormous resources. Better to have a mix of 5th and 4.5 gen fighters - helps fill up the numbers, while still giving you stealth capability to take out high value, highly defended targets.

Right

Rafael is better suited for A2G role, easier to maintain and Pak Fa has long way to go before it emerges as maure platform.

 

[he-man]

Fundamental mistakes-

1) We are trying to develop more platforms than China or the US- not even remotely- the whole spectrum of projects running in these two countries would dwarf anything India has undertaken in the last 20 years.

2) The LCA or the Aura have their separate outlays and allocations, which have been on track. As such the outlay for the Rafale isn't an one time lump sum payment but spread over 13 years.

3) If you wish to lament about the inaction of the MoD, start by asking them why a certain LOA which has been in their possession since March has not been released to the concerned OEM so far.

There is no denial here at all, I am just not given to jumping the gun without familiarizing myself with the issue properly. Last time you brought up this topic albeit in a thread lamenting about the massive fleet of the PLAAF, I had asked you a simple question, find out the force deployment in the Chengdu MraF, had you done so (among other things, i.e. similar exercises wrt other sectors and fronts) perhaps you would have been able to then ascertain (in part and in the microcosm of a specific sector) why the IAF is doing what it is doing.



Not yet unless the RM is going to push the IAF into changing procedures. TACDE is yet to get their hands on the bird, only the RM can circumvent that process.

Ok let me tell u where even u are wrong(for a change,lol)

1)The effect of rafale deal is that amca is almost in limbo,,,atleast delayed if not cancelled alltogether.

2)LCA will get ioc-2 after trials in december-january at the most(doubtful)

3)We are developing or planning to develop(only fighter class)

a)amca
b)lca mk 1
c)lca mk2
d)fgfa with 25 percent hal workshare
e)aura supposed to be pilotless stealth aircraft

reality------------Even tejas mk1 hasn't even got ioc-2,forget about foc and production

The other stuff mentioned is not even on papaer i think!!!

What conclusion do we draw from here??

Right

Rafael is better suited for A2G role, easier to maintain and Pak Fa has long way to go before it emerges as maure platform.

did u even read the article??

the pakfa is gonna have 2 dedicated side array aesa radars only for ground attack.......

Right

Rafael is better suited for A2G role, easier to maintain and Pak Fa has long way to go before it emerges as maure platform.

did u even read the article??

the pakfa is gonna have 2 dedicated side array aesa radars only for ground attack.......

 

[IND151]

I am stating, unequivocally, that you are incorrect.

I have tried to elucidate the concepts of operational doctrine and the net centricity of warfare numerous times. An effort which seems to be wasted so I shall not endeavor on that vein again.

Static testing for structural changes just before pre-production model fab. Please shoot me! The detailed design phase for the air frame is done and over with, only RAM/RAS and LO port optimization (maybe) can occur now. Something that should be fundamentally self-evident. Unless someone at the MoD has lost all sense and decided to try and alter this basic set-up, in which case several hoops will have to be jumped through and the project will get delayed, this is how things will fall into place.

Fiscal year is not a "vague term". The deal will go through, once the MoD feels like it, at the end of this fiscal or the beginning of the next fiscal.

If you wish to touch upon some broader topic, such as long terms acquisition planning and force structure planning then open another thread with that as the main agenda instead of a X is better than Y thread.

The Pak Fa so far has not got the flat underbelly which is crucial for stealth and problem of exposed fanblades is still not solved.

Any idea when Pak Fa will see above improvements?

 

[Dillinger]

Ok let me tell u where even u are wrong(for a change,lol)

1)The effect of rafale deal is that amca is almost in limbo,,,atleast delayed if not cancelled alltogether.

2)LCA will get ioc-2 after trials in december-january at the most(doubtful)

3)We are developing or planning to develop(only fighter class)

a)amca
b)lca mk 1
c)lca mk2
d)fgfa with 25 percent hal workshare
e)aura supposed to be pilotless stealth aircraft

reality------------Even tejas mk1 hasn't even got ioc-2,forget about foc and production

The other stuff mentioned is not even on papaer i think!!!

What conclusion do we draw from here??



did u even read the article??

the pakfa is gonna have 2 dedicated side array aesa radars only for ground attack.......



did u even read the article??

the pakfa is gonna have 2 dedicated side array aesa radars only for ground attack.......

I have already told you that IOC is only possible after TACDE is done with the bird. Unless the RM circumvents that. You need to read before posting. If the RM insists on short circuiting said procedure (ergo the reference to dec-jan trials) then it will cause further bad blood between the executive and the war fighters, all the more power to the RM.

IOC process in brief- TACDE takes the bird and runs it through its operational envelope. Evolves tac. manuals. 2 years required. The operational conversion starts with IOC.

The RM is trying to change that procedure for the LCA, and he can, let that be on his head.

I have already told you that the outlay for AMCA is separate and not connected to the Rafale. The reason that certain budget components have been cut is that the IAF does not want the AMCA, period, at the moment it does not want to touch it with a 100 foot pole. Feel free to argue with the IAF on that.

Again, that list of prospective fighters pales in comparison in terms of scale and outlay if you compare it with just the number of UCAVs, BAMS UAV, Block upgradations being undertaken by the US leave alone the Chinese who are running 2 5th gen and 2 4.5 gen projects side by side.

The conclusion you draw, as anyone else should, is that the MoD is filled with lack wits.

 

[Dillinger]

The Pak Fa so far has not got the flat underbelly which is crucial for stealth and problem of exposed fanblades is still not solved.

Any idea when Pak Fa will see above improvements?

Flat belly is not an issue nor required on the Pak-fa.

No further structural changes can be made for the partially exposed fan blades, nor is it an issue.

 

[IND151]

Flat belly is not an issue nor required on the Pak-fa.

No further structural changes can be made for the partially exposed fan blades, nor is it an issue.

why?............

Even F-35 has more stealthier belly.

And kindly give a look to this article.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...ebnoAQ&usg=AFQjCNGmtKHmgEZymyWrZLypozJ3QGlavA

 

[帅的一匹]

pakfa is gonna be produced in another 3 years max with stage 1 engine

rafale will start delivery in mid 2017 at best

u do the math

India logic of buying fighter jet is completely at mess, just like a kid lingering in a candy shop.

 

[rockstarIN]

One most important thing India needs to diversify its foces into western weapons.

What happens when R-77 does not perform well in an upcoming war upto our expectations?

Other point is servicability of western stuff, the main reason we went for m2k upgrade. It has very higher sortie rate, less maintenance indeed.

Russian planes need heavy maintenance, which, everybody knows. Western engines has got double life time than Russian engines apart from fuel trusty. Also we need western stand off weapon systems in our armoury for sure till we develop our own. Remember our only own PGM, Sudarshan, on;y got 9 km stand off capability.

 

[sancho]

so whats the need of rafale if i ask again??especially when it is established that delivery will start only in mid 2017 after deal is signed in mid 2014??

The same reason why the US mainly uses F16s today and not F15s or F22s, or why we mainly used Mig 21s and not Su 30. You need fighters that are cost-effective to operate in every day roles, like air policing, interceptions and so on. That's where we today use Mig 21s and 29s and not the Flankers. The Pak Fa / FGFA of course is far more capable than any 4th or 4.5th gen fighter, but also is far more expensive to operate, not only by the fact that it's a heavy class fighter, but also because it's much more expensive to operate and maintain a stealth fighter than a current gen fighter. So even if the early version of Pak Fa (that IAF doesn't want) would be available, it is not an alternative for MMRCA, let alone for LCA's which is the fighter we actually wanted in these normal roles. But with all the delays we definitely could need 1 or 2 squads of Pak Fa's to keep an advantage over our adversaries.

why?............

Even F-35 has more stealthier belly.

That's a myth:

http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/f35_belly.jpg

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/264/c/4/JSf_F35_Raptor_II_back_Engine_by_Crewshay.jpg


And a flat belly is not a requirement, but stealthy shapings and internal weapons and fuel carriage, which is all given even for the T50 prototypes. Only the rear engine coverings are rounded currently, but that is even the case for parts of the F35 as you can see above.

 

[DrSomnath999]

source---air international 2013 october edition




http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i441/somnath30/PAK-FA1.jpg
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i441/somnath30/PAK-FA2.jpg
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i441/somnath30/PAK-FA3.jpg
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i441/somnath30/pakfa-4.jpg
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i441/somnath30/pakfa5.jpg

Now before ppl start shouting that rafale and pakfa have diff roles

pls read about the side facing radars-----------they are specifically for ground mapping and attack!!

so whats the need of rafale if i ask again??especially when it is established that delivery will start only in mid 2017 after deal is signed in mid 2014??

What a shame !!

u copy pasted my pics without even giving credit to me ???

Ok whatever u dont have such manners there is no point to blame you for that

but what nonnense logic is this why "Pak-fa trumps rafale" ?

this is just like why apple is sweeter than orange

dude plz grow up plz


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