Why no one gives a crap about BVR

[Thunder]

This question was asked by a famous ruissian test pilot who invented the move called "Pugachev's Cobra".

Q. But this is again the same old question about the difference between long-distance missile engagement and dogfights. The Americans believe that long-range radar-guided missiles are the key to air superiority. It that so?

A. I think that only life can prove or disprove this. The Americans have somewhat larger experience of conducting massive air operations. They recently had a massive air campaign in the Persian Gulf, for instance. But in fact they did not meet a strong response in the recent local wars, including that in the Gulf, and air engagements were rare. This fact gives the Americans the base to assert that they have powerful means of monitoring the airspace - "we see everything, we know everything" - so that they think they can begin an air campaign with shooting down as many enemy aircraft as we see at long distances. That works in Persian Gulf conflicts, but should it be a real well-organized response from the enemy, the control lines could get destroyed or jammed, leading to a collapse of the whole system. That will happen if the enemy possesses powerful electronic countermeasure systems to jam radars. In that situation, two fighter flying towards each other will cover the distance of 100-150 km, which is a launch range for modern radar-guided missiles, in three minutes. If they do not make well-planned evasive actions, the likelihood that they would end up in a dog-fight is high. Of course, in a massive air campaign a number of aircraft from each side could be shot down at long distances, but those pilots who survived will be drawn into a dogfight with their opposing counterparts. And in this situation super-agile aircraft will have the advantage. Surely, in the future the long-range missiles will be the decisive factor - we will finally come to that. But today it is too early to drop the dogfight from consideration.

Read the rest of the interveiw here

 

[Sharjeel]

you can also do a cobra on the old mig3s of ww2! but they are a litle less stable..

you have to slow down a LOT other wise youl just end up climbing with very high Gs.

Doug Cronkhite (dougc@cerf.net):

The cobra and it's horizontal counterpart, "the hook", are performed by the pilot disabling the angle of attack (alpha) limiter on the flight control system just prior to the pitch up. The fly-by-wire FLCS normally limits the aircraft to 35 degrees alpha, but by disabling the alpha limiter, the pilot can generate up to 110 degrees alpha in the single seat aircraft, while the two seater seem to stop at around 90. Neither aircraft has vectored thrust and this is simply a demonstration of the aircraft's ability to generate a tremendous pitch rate, without changing the vector of flight.

I spoke with one of the russian aerobatic team members a couple years ago about this, as he also flew a SU-27 for Sukhoi as one of their test pilots. He mentioned a few scary attempts with the cobra when pilots attempted this at too high a speed, and instead of performing the cobra, the airplane pulled as much as 15 G's in a standard, albeit very small pitch up.One pilot died during flight testing of this because he failed to recover consciousness. This tell me that the G limiting system in the SU-27 is coupled to the alpha system, so that when one is turned off, the other doesn't work properly.

Anthony Volk (avolk@chat.carleton.ca):

I heard from an ANG F-15 pilot that the Su-27 could only do the cobra without any ordinance. When I asked if that meant A-A missiles, the answer was an emphatic yes! This means that the Cobra is only useful in gunfight. The same pilot said that if an F-15 gets into a gunfight, the pilot has done something wrong. It's much better to just launch some AMRAAMs at the Russian who's doing his "airshow" combat techniques.

Ken Duffey (K.Duffey@ncs.nerc.ac.uk):

At the 1994 Farnborough airshow, the Su-30MK (a derivative of the two-seat Su-27UB/PU) did his airshow routine with ordnance on all 12 pylons - a total of 7 TONNES !!

It did a complete fighter-like routine with this asymmetric load - INCLUDING A TAIL SLIDE !! (though not a Cobra).

This was apparently sanctioned by Su[khoi] designer Mikhail Simonov to counter criticisms that the Sukhois only flew their routines without stores (like most western display a/c).

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/cobra.html

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Thunder@Nov 30 2005, 08:03 AM
Why no one gives a crap about BVR???

[post=4059]Quoted post[/post]​

Atleast PAF top bras gives a crap.

Pakistan is seriously threatened by the imbalance between the IAF and the PAF. Indian air power build-up, especially enhancement of its offensive air power potential, is a challenge for the Pakistan Air Force. Pakistan can ill-afford to ignore the strike and intercept capabilities of the IAF, especially of its 190 Sukhoi (Su-30k) and 50 Mirage 2000-H multirole aircraft. The force multiplier impact of 190 Flankers, 50 Mirages and about 300 F-16 Falcons and F-18 Super Hornets, the Indian Air Force could outgun the PAF in the war for air superiority. The smaller PAF will find it difficult to clear the skies over the FDLs. Armour advances of Pakistan army could be halted in their tracks by IAF's BVR weapons. Pakistan therefore has no option, but to build a strong air force, which is not inferior to the Indian Air Force, in quality and quantity.

By AIR MARSHAL (RETD) Ex-PAF AYAZ AHMED KHAN

Read the full article here

http://nation.com.pk/daily/may-2005/4/columns5.php

Thanks,

Miro

 

[EagleEyes]

The mention of 300 Fighting Faclons combined with F-18 is just a propaganda to influence the people and president of Pakistan to approve the funds for military spending.

Regards,
Ahsan F.

 

[Thunder]

Like webmaster said. It's all crap. Read the answer that the pilot gave
. In a war against and enemy that can almost as good as you means
trouble. To counter BVR one can place jammers and stuff to jame the enemies radar etc. But i don't
know if pakistan has such kind of jammers, someone help me with th
is

 

[Zeeshan S.]

Originally posted by Thunder@Dec 1 2005, 10:44 PM
Like webmaster said. It's all crap. Read the answer that the pilot gave
. In a war against and enemy that can almost as good as you means
trouble. To counter BVR one can place jammers and stuff to jame the enemies radar etc. But i don't
know if pakistan has such kind of jammers, someone help me with th
is

[post=4193]Quoted post[/post]​

Its plain stupid for us to support PAF with the current situation. I say dont support them, if you want to support then support for more funds available so they can by latest goodies, i know BVR will come with new F-16s, but hey the order of getting French, Germanic, and Swidish weaponry should also be proposed.

 

[khurasaan1]

Its plain stupid for us to support PAF with the current situation. I say dont support them, if you want to support then support for more funds available so they can by latest goodies, i know BVR will come with new F-16s, but hey the order of getting French, Germanic, and Swidish weaponry should also be proposed.

The best option for PAF is to develop its own systems instead of buying goodies all the time from outside and keep themselves dependant......make ureself free bro....

 

[khurasaan1]

Like webmaster said. It's all crap. Read the answer that the pilot gave
. In a war against and enemy that can almost as good as you means
trouble. To counter BVR one can place jammers and stuff to jame the enemies radar etc. But i don't
know if pakistan has such kind of jammers, someone help me with th
is

PAF have jammers but not the powerful or wide range

 

[khurasaan1]

The mention of 300 Fighting Faclons combined with F-18 is just a propaganda to influence the people and president of Pakistan to approve the funds for military spending.

Regards,
Ahsan F.

that is absolutely right bro.......

 

[khurasaan1]

Atleast PAF top bras gives a crap.

Pakistan is seriously threatened by the imbalance between the IAF and the PAF. Indian air power build-up, especially enhancement of its offensive air power potential, is a challenge for the Pakistan Air Force. Pakistan can ill-afford to ignore the strike and intercept capabilities of the IAF, especially of its 190 Sukhoi (Su-30k) and 50 Mirage 2000-H multirole aircraft. The force multiplier impact of 190 Flankers, 50 Mirages and about 300 F-16 Falcons and F-18 Super Hornets, the Indian Air Force could outgun the PAF in the war for air superiority. The smaller PAF will find it difficult to clear the skies over the FDLs. Armour advances of Pakistan army could be halted in their tracks by IAF's BVR weapons. Pakistan therefore has no option, but to build a strong air force, which is not inferior to the Indian Air Force, in quality and quantity.

By AIR MARSHAL (RETD) Ex-PAF AYAZ AHMED KHAN

Read the full article here

http://nation.com.pk/daily/may-2005/4/columns5.php

Thanks,

Miro

dont worry inshallah they cant match PAF in any case...no matter what...

 

[rohailmalhi]

PAF have jammers but not the powerful or wide range

DUDE watch the date of the last reply on this thread.