What's new

Why is great philosopher Kautilya not part of Pakistan’s historical consciousness?

On Contrary they want the Opposite, atleast as suggested by the Author.
Why do you want pakistanis to claim those figures? Its none of our business..in fact it is good for us indians the more theu distance themselves from their past...today total world treats us as heirs of IVC...great philosophers,grammarians ,physicians who were born in that land are ours...ayurveda is ours...yoga is ours...upanishads are ours...sanskrot is ours...the world respects us for all that contribution.....let that be like that only.
 
. .
we have far more greater Philosophical Giants who dwarfs this guy , We have Chain of Anbiya starting from Adam A.S to all way to Muhammad Pbuh, after him his thousands of Companions who most of them were some of the great people who ever walk the earth, than we have Jibreel AS and his experience with Anbiya .. We don't need this or that person to tell us which we know from our own people .
This is one of the reasons that the Muslims have declined.
You should never stop learning, regardless of the source.
Knowledge is infinite.
 
.
@Joe Shearer Was there any Indian (or even Greek for that matter) equivalent of Chinese title Huáng dì (Emperor of China) or even Tiānzǐ (Son of Heaven) used universally by Indian/Greek rulers?

By Indians, Chakravartin; the Greeks had Basileos, but that mapped onto King. It was much later, after appropriation of the military term Imperator, that the west had anything approaching Huang Di, but thereafter, it proliferated.
 
.
By Indians, Chakravartin; the Greeks had Basileos, but that mapped onto King. It was much later, after appropriation of the military term Imperator, that the west had anything approaching Huang Di, but thereafter, it proliferated.
And Mauryas used it? Wikipedia say yes! Thanks for this.
 
.
Well first india is not an ethnicity so someone expanding into some other part is extending its reach into the area of other ethnic domain. Specially the difference between north and south and east and west indians is very much clear. Even if this doesn't convince you then maurya had extended its kingdom into half of present day Afghanistan and present day balochistan and they under no definition fall under indian ethnicity. Moreover he also battled Seleucid empire and tried to increase his influence further in west and north

Let me put it to you that India was not an ethnicity, but a series of interconnected ethnicities, some dividing along language, many more across apparent race (genetically, all Indians, and some Indians who are today no longer very comfortable with the term 'Indians', fall into either Ancestral North Indian or Ancestral South Indian).

The differences between north and south and east and west Indians that you see goes one step deeper at least, and perhaps more; they remain bound together in the general inter-relationship. So if you stop for a moment and throw the cardinal directions of the compass into the nearest waste-paper basket, you will find that 'India' sub-divides into river-based civilisations, BUT NOT the ones about which we argue on PDF morning, day and night. Instead, consider looking at India as based on the Ganga-Yamuna river complex, the Brahmaputra, the Meghna-Padma, the Mahanadi, the Godavari, the Krishna, the Kaveri, the Tungabhadra, the Narmada and the Indus. Only a narrow strip of land in Kerala falls outside these matrices.

If you continue to examine these river-based civilisations, you will find, perhaps to your surprise, perhaps not, that each has strong borrowings from the ones closest to it on all sides; so, for instance, the Ganga-Yamuna complex borrows from the Indus complex in Punjab and Haryana, or the other way around, if you please; the Meghna-Padma borrows from its upstream neighbours the Ganga-Yamuna culture, and on the other side, the Brahmaputra based culture; and so on, and so forth. If you have the patience to dig a little, you will find an enormous amount of debit and credit transactions taking place on the cultural balance.

Effectively, nobody is expanding into anything that he or she is not already partly related to. When the Rastrakutas kept all of north India under their iron grip, they finally landed up contributing a famous Rajput tribe that reigns over much of Rajasthan. So how do we define the Rastrakuta? As children of the Narmada, or the Tungabhadra, or the Ganga-Yamuna cultures?

Then you have been very, very brave, kept the terrible mischief being wrought by Ajit Doval and his wicked band of imps, and forestalled any historical adventurism by saying that half of present-day Afghanistan and present-day Balochistan (spoiler alert) under no definition fall under Indian ethnicity. If we define Indian ethnicity as people speaking Punjabi or Gujarati, certainly; you have a point. The population of left-handed red-headed green-eyed dwarves of three feet of height and below is certainly a most well-defined one. When the Achaemenids ruled those areas, Arachosia and Gedrosia were certainly not kept isolated from other parts of their empire, not even from frontier marches like the hill country that was many centuries before known as Gandhara, and would use the name again very soon. These tracts had come into disrepute, as the abode of the mlechhas (you may have come across this term during its use in later years to sneer at various breeds of 'outsider' to India, but this was where it was first used), who no longer spoke the pure tongue; they did not speak what was become the standard for speech in the 4th and 5th centuries BC, the language as spoken in what is today western UP. Even the immediate neighbours in the Punjab and in the valleys and ravines of the north-west were viewed with a certain degree of condescension. So the Kamboja became outliers, where they had been in the heart of the matter earlier; so, too, were other tribes like the Uttara Kuru and branches of the Madra. Most of the north-west, and most of the south-west was populated by tribes who had grown over the centuries closer and closer to the mainstream Medes, then the Persian conquerors, but that by no means consigns them to a different ethnicity altogether; there was as much resemblance between them and the people of the Indus Valley as there was between the people of the Indus Valley and the people of the Narmada.

This is strictly with reference to the Mauryas. Once they had given way to the waves of barbarian assault that followed, the Scythians gave their name to the Seistan Desert and also ruled in Gujarat and Malwa as Satraps under different Emperors; there was no lack of ethnic commonalty at that stage.

If you have the patience to follow up these broad brush strokes, you might find a very different picture emerging. You will have to do it alone, because I will not respond to requests for texts and citations; this post itself has been taxing, and I will need to recuperate from it.

Mauryas succeeded the nandas, whom i believe had already a vast empire stretching from ganga to tamil nadu, given the geopolitical situation kautilya strived for a more ''dharmic'' rule under the mauryas. I dont think it had indian nationalism in mind but the geopolitical situation.

The indian kingdoms have got united under thread of what they called ''mlecchas'' so its not like the mauryas had no indian nation in ther mind while trying to stretch to all the corners of what they called ''jambudvipa'', the mauryas and kautilya believed three corners of india, whether it was politically united under one state or several, the entity remained there regardless.

regards

I just mentioned the 'mlechhas' a couple of posts down, above, hoping very hard that I would not be hooted out of the forum. You really have a breadth of learning.

Am I forgiven or are you still cross?
 
.
And used by whom and whom throughout history? Also, did it had any ethnic connotations like Huáng dì?
Ashoka of the Maurya empire and Chandragupta (aka Vikramaditya) of the Gupta empire used to be called Chakravarti. In Southern Parts they are called Rajadhiraja which is another term.
 
.
Let me put it to you that India was not an ethnicity, but a series of interconnected ethnicities, some dividing along language, many more across apparent race (genetically, all Indians, and some Indians who are today no longer very comfortable with the term 'Indians', fall into either Ancestral North Indian or Ancestral South Indian).

The differences between north and south and east and west Indians that you see goes one step deeper at least, and perhaps more; they remain bound together in the general inter-relationship. So if you stop for a moment and throw the cardinal directions of the compass into the nearest waste-paper basket, you will find that 'India' sub-divides into river-based civilisations, BUT NOT the ones about which we argue on PDF morning, day and night. Instead, consider looking at India as based on the Ganga-Yamuna river complex, the Brahmaputra, the Meghna-Padma, the Mahanadi, the Godavari, the Krishna, the Kaveri, the Tungabhadra, the Narmada and the Indus. Only a narrow strip of land in Kerala falls outside these matrices.

If you continue to examine these river-based civilisations, you will find, perhaps to your surprise, perhaps not, that each has strong borrowings from the ones closest to it on all sides; so, for instance, the Ganga-Yamuna complex borrows from the Indus complex in Punjab and Haryana, or the other way around, if you please; the Meghna-Padma borrows from its upstream neighbours the Ganga-Yamuna culture, and on the other side, the Brahmaputra based culture; and so on, and so forth. If you have the patience to dig a little, you will find an enormous amount of debit and credit transactions taking place on the cultural balance.

Effectively, nobody is expanding into anything that he or she is not already partly related to. When the Rastrakutas kept all of north India under their iron grip, they finally landed up contributing a famous Rajput tribe that reigns over much of Rajasthan. So how do we define the Rastrakuta? As children of the Narmada, or the Tungabhadra, or the Ganga-Yamuna cultures?

Then you have been very, very brave, kept the terrible mischief being wrought by Ajit Doval and his wicked band of imps, and forestalled any historical adventurism by saying that half of present-day Afghanistan and present-day Balochistan (spoiler alert) under no definition fall under Indian ethnicity. If we define Indian ethnicity as people speaking Punjabi or Gujarati, certainly; you have a point. The population of left-handed red-headed green-eyed dwarves of three feet of height and below is certainly a most well-defined one. When the Achaemenids ruled those areas, Arachosia and Gedrosia were certainly not kept isolated from other parts of their empire, not even from frontier marches like the hill country that was many centuries before known as Gandhara, and would use the name again very soon. These tracts had come into disrepute, as the abode of the mlechhas (you may have come across this term during its use in later years to sneer at various breeds of 'outsider' to India, but this was where it was first used), who no longer spoke the pure tongue; they did not speak what was become the standard for speech in the 4th and 5th centuries BC, the language as spoken in what is today western UP. Even the immediate neighbours in the Punjab and in the valleys and ravines of the north-west were viewed with a certain degree of condescension. So the Kamboja became outliers, where they had been in the heart of the matter earlier; so, too, were other tribes like the Uttara Kuru and branches of the Madra. Most of the north-west, and most of the south-west was populated by tribes who had grown over the centuries closer and closer to the mainstream Medes, then the Persian conquerors, but that by no means consigns them to a different ethnicity altogether; there was as much resemblance between them and the people of the Indus Valley as there was between the people of the Indus Valley and the people of the Narmada.

This is strictly with reference to the Mauryas. Once they had given way to the waves of barbarian assault that followed, the Scythians gave their name to the Seistan Desert and also ruled in Gujarat and Malwa as Satraps under different Emperors; there was no lack of ethnic commonalty at that stage.

If you have the patience to follow up these broad brush strokes, you might find a very different picture emerging. You will have to do it alone, because I will not respond to requests for texts and citations; this post itself has been taxing, and I will need to recuperate from it.



I just mentioned the 'mlechhas' a couple of posts down, above, hoping very hard that I would not be hooted out of the forum. You really have a breadth of learning.

Am I forgiven or are you still cross?
I wish I hadnt office deadlines and had more time to discuss it elaborately. You got into much depth and simply didnt answer that how afghans are related to Sanskrit culture to which maurya extended its empire across the hindukush, The river civilization is not unique to india all across the world people settled alongside rivers and neither do borrowing cultures from each other is unique to india. South and west punjab and seraiki people have also their links to adjacent baloch and pashtuns and these pashtuns and balochs are further interlinked to persians and central asians. You can use Sanskrit as a root to define interlinked indian society but then it will leave out north eastern sino tibetan groups and southern dravidian groups and also the adi vasi groups.
Racial and cultural lines are blurry and try to precisely define them is a fallacy by standing in punjab you can look both in east, west and also north and the cultural and genetic influence from all these sides is great. When lahore was sampled for genetic profiling lahoris had near pashtun to near south indian DNA.
India comes on second number in terms of genetic diversity only second after Africa so no we are not linked to each other genetically, cultural connection can be a key but culture and languages are spectrum and you cant draw hard lines that is why it is hard to pin point where interlinked societies start and where they end.
 
. .
This was expected tbh as South Indians are Dravidians, what about North Indian? Link up credible studies, please.
Also, read this,
https://www.brownpundits.com/2018/12/21/pathans-between-hind-and-iran/
Pathan is very vague term, In Pakistan there are pashtuns which are closely linked to afghan pashtuns. Pathan is a term used by indians to denote the people who migrated from pashtun lands to central or northern india. A lot of muslim migrants from UP to karachi use Khan title but they are in fact more reated to UP than pashtuns.
Secondly it depends a lot that from where did you took samples of pathans in pakistan and from where did you took the samples in iran and afghanistan. Eastern iranian and afghans are also much different from western afghans and iranians. That is why I said racial lines are blurry and can be extended into different directions and putting a line on a spectrum is not possible. In Iran you have balochs, persians, kurds and azeris so even iranian is not an ethnicity.

Regarding Lahore
https://www.brownpundits.com/2018/06/07/genetical-observations-on-caste/
 
.
We all know of North-South divide, I agree on that but this link itself establish the closeness of castes of neighbouring regions.

Pathan is very vague term, In Pakistan there are pashtuns which are closely linked to afghan pashtuns. Pathan is a term used by indians to denote the people who migrated from pashtun lands to central or northern india. A lot of muslim migrants from UP to karachi use Khan title but they are in fact more reated to UP than pashtuns.
I don't think they solely took the data from Karachi Muhajirs, Pakistani Punjab have a lot of Pathans too, have to dig in to be sure though.
 
.
I wish I hadnt office deadlines and had more time to discuss it elaborately. You got into much depth and simply didnt answer that how afghans are related to Sanskrit culture to which maurya extended its empire across the hindukush, The river civilization is not unique to india all across the world people settled alongside rivers and neither do borrowing cultures from each other is unique to india. South and west punjab and seraiki people have also their links to adjacent baloch and pashtuns and these pashtuns and balochs are further interlinked to persians and central asians. You can use Sanskrit as a root to define interlinked indian society but then it will leave out north eastern sino tibetan groups and southern dravidian groups and also the adi vasi groups.
Racial and cultural lines are blurry and try to precisely define them is a fallacy by standing in punjab you can look both in east, west and also north and the cultural and genetic influence from all these sides is great. When lahore was sampled for genetic profiling lahoris had near pashtun to near south indian DNA.
India comes on second number in terms of genetic diversity only second after Africa so no we are not linked to each other genetically, cultural connection can be a key but culture and languages are spectrum and you cant draw hard lines that is why it is hard to pin point where interlinked societies start and where they end.

I don't mind waiting. I would be happy to address your points, but need some time myself, as my health is not good. That last answer exhausted me.

Let me start by responding to your post above, when I do get around to it.
 
.
This is one of the reasons that the Muslims have declined.
You should never stop learning, regardless of the source.
Knowledge is infinite.

You are mixing two separate kinds of education , lets not forget much of EU's modernization were actually results from sacking of Andulus and Baghdad , where millions of books were either burned or stolen .

If lying and deceitfulness is the learning of the Arthasastra, you really need an education. Read it first, then come to conclusions about what it teaches. You are confusing the popular Indian image of Chanakya as a ruthless, infinitely wily conspirator with the teachings of the Arthasastra. Even that popular image is wrong, and is based on a degree of myth-building, compounded with ignorance, compounded with psychological insecurity.

I don't care what he teaches, There is nothing he or anyone else can teach me about a Successful life which I couldn't get it from the Life of Prophet(s) or his companions . If you are talking about Science and Technology that's a different matter .
 
.
We all know of North-South divide, I agree on that but this link itself establish the closeness of castes of neighbouring regions.


I don't think they solely took the data from Karachi Muhajirs, Pakistani Punjab have a lot of Pathans too, have to dig in to be sure though.
No the link wasnt for india, it was for Lahore. Secondly there are many pashtun clans living inside punjab but they are now mixed with local population. So the good representation of pakistani pashtuns is from KPK and balochistan.
Over the time ethnic lines start getting blurred specially with the globalization. The north and south divide in india was more strong in past and with time it is getting more homogeneous. Identities and ethnicity are evolving concept and try to frame them in a specific context with regards to past is not much feasible. I am also interested in the topic but more you read about it the more you realize it is irrelevant in modern nation states concepts. The concept might serve ethno nationalist politicians but it doesnt help to make country and world a better place. The beauty of the topic is that you can tell Raj Thakry that he is more linked to bihar and UP and can give shut up call to ethno-nationalists
 
.
You are mixing two separate kinds of education , lets not forget much of EU's modernization were actually results from sacking of Andulus and Baghdad , where millions of books were either burned or stolen .



I don't care what he teaches, There is nothing he or anyone else can teach me about a Successful life which I couldn't get it from the Life of Prophet(s) or his companions . If you are talking about Science and Technology that's a different matter .

LOL.

Nothing about a successful life either. That is why you should read the damn thing.
 
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom