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why is denying the holocaust against the law?

@Akheilos : By the way, Anne Frank did not survive the holocaust. She dies in the Auschwitz concentration camp. Her diary was published years later by her father, who was the only one to survive. One 13 year old's diary is not how history gets documented. All of the govts writings, orders, speeches, judgements are all available to us. As are some of the people who gave those orders, the ones who carried out those orders, and the ones who were victims.
btw how did her father get the diary?
weren't men and women separated? did he go searching for her belongings? i heard there is a lot of controversy surrounding diary of ann frank. like i think the pen it was written with didn't exist during the holocaust or something.
 
yes go right on ahead use it while you have it.
today you don't say anything about this law tomorrow they will pass another law banning you from saying something else.
then what?
if denying the holocaust is wrong and against the law then why isn't making drawings of the prophet Muhammad with a turban as a bomb ect not against the law?
First if all, there is no law in Sweden against denying the holocaust, just because of the Freedom of Speech issue.
(But use of Swastikas is considered a hate crime).

As for the prophet with a bomb, this is legal since it is a comment on Islam, as a political force.
The incident happened in Denmark, not in Sweden.

It is a derivative of a saying which goes something like:
"Having an Orange in the Turban", which means getting lucky.
I cannot tell what the original cartoonist meant, only my own guess which is:

"What is our first association when somone mentions Islam: - Islamist Suicide Bombers."

I do not see the cartoon as an attack on Muhammed, and actually not on Islam either.
It is an acknowledgement that Islam comes with a baggage.
Suicide Bombers, Taliban, ISIS, AL-Qaeda etc.
And the frequent appearances of Muslim Suicide Bombers trains the synapses.

The response from the Muslim world is:

"If you imply that we are dangerous, we will kill You, so you better take it back".

That I find hilarious....

To see this as an attack on Muhammed is problematic, since Suicide is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN
according to the Quran, so I cannot see why Muhammed is to blame.
The rest of the "baggage" is clearly violating fundamental principles of Islam as well,
but Muhammed is a good symbol for Islam, so it is natural for cartoonists to use him.

The Muslim world is divided on whether it is OK to illustrate Muhammed at all.
There are painting in existence of Muhammed, so there is a precedence for that.
I do not see why non-Muslims need to be stricter than Muslims.

A lot of the protests showed lack of understanding on how a democracy with Free Speech works.
The government does not have any right to put people between bars for
using their free speech. Complaining to the government thus has no effect.

Boycotting Danish Goods affects a lot of people that has nothing to do with the cartoons
including Muslims reselling the stuff in their native countries.

Banning comments/cartoons on Islam altogether is not realistic since
Islam wants to be a Political Force.

What would be an appropriate way for a cartoon to illustrate Islam without Muhammed?
 
Yea bt it isnt called father's diary now is it!
So why tell me this? I brought in Anne not coz of her but her diary...
It didnt document the historical effects but it was the key to the play that sent a shudder through Europe and led to the adjustment of the laws!
No it isn't, no it isn't. The Nuremberg trials took place well before the diary was published. The denazification laws were passed well before the diary was published. Please stop making up history.
 
Yes it is. But it is not about debating whether the holocaust took place or not. It is about freedom of peech, not the holocaust.
The holocaust is the only outstanding "special" example :P

Freedom of speech mind you is applied everywhere else but not negotiable with laws backing for holocaust...so both are equally important on the thread! I gtg Isha time and before I know it I need to munch like a hamster! Will be back after Isha and tarawih!
 
Well 1 of the most documented is overstating!

Most of the info came from a journal of a lady (Anne Frank) "believed" to have lived and survived the holocaust...how? no one knows nor dared question....

Well there are hundreds to thousands of articles about the diary being a "hoax" - never read those researches but yea there are some "studies" from America....

In fact alot of the info was from the records that German men who were good with records...But there are some cases which make a 2+2 into a 6....

Well there is no law forcing one to believe in the WW2!
I do not concur with this statement. There is no paucity of evidence pointing towards holocaust. Anne Frank did not die in a death camp, she died most probably of typhus at bergen belsen. The death camps were to the East, they were treblinka, sobibor, belzecs and chelmo. There are german documents accounting for number of jews killed in these camps (Hoeffle telegraph). Furthermore holocaust began with mass shooting of jews in the ernstwhile USSR. These events are well documented both by the germans and the soviets. Places like babi yar, kements podolski, odessa, kovno, vilna just to name a few. Most of the evidence pertaining to holocaust can be obtained from nuremburg trial transcripts and the soviet commission looking into the holocaust in eastern europe. millions of people just do not disappear from the face of the earth without any reason.
 
@Cherokee @Akheilos @Abu Nasar @KingMamba
the evidence for the holocaust are about the same as evidence for UFO sightings

Come on mate. You cannot visit a static display of a UFO, captured or otherwise. But you can very well visit the concentration camps which were integral to the Holocaust. I've been to Dachau and Bergen-Belsen, and they both have museums inside with pretty damning evidence of the Holocaust. The official figure of 6 million might find a few strong counter-points, but none whatsoever to deny the Holocaust itself.
 
@Cherokee @Akheilos @Abu Nasar @KingMamba
the evidence for the holocaust are about the same as evidence for UFO sightings

No doubt it happened but the numbers are debateable, it should be noted that many Gypsies and Poles were also slaughtered but they hardly get a mention. Some poles get a mention because they happened to be Jews though.
 
Yes it's your belief and its your opinion but it is not a FACT . And Facts are not BS since its proven . You believe in got and i believe in alien or flying spagetti monster . Same thing . Its a belief not a Fact .
Well, as @KingMamba rightly pointed out, if this event truly took place as it claimed, then why persecute people who question it (denying and questioning are two different things).

For example, a Jewish male by the name of David Cole became famous for his debates and questioning of whether the Jews were really gassed and if 6 million really perished. What later ended up happening to him truly resembles persecution, the poor Jewish fellow was stalked, punched in the face, and pushed by members of the JDL (Jewish Defense league) until he recanted his views, faked his own death, and went into hiding.

@Akheilos @Abu Nasar @qamar1990 @Cherokee You can visit his website at: http://www.countercontempt.com/
 
Well, as @KingMamba rightly pointed out, if this event truly took place as it claimed, then why persecute people who question it (denying and questioning are two different things).

For example, a Jewish male by the name of David Cole became famous for his debates and questioning of whether the Jews were really gassed and if 6 million really perished. What later ended up happening to him truly resembles persecution, the poor Jewish fellow was stalked, punched in the face, and pushed by members of the JDL (Jewish Defense league)

@Akheilos @Abu Nasar @qamar1990 @Cherokee You can visit his website at: http://www.countercontempt.com/

I have already addressed this issue in previous post .
 
Hate speech

Across the European Union, hate speech laws, and in particular their interpretation, vary with regard to how they impact on the protection for freedom of expression. In some countries, notably Poland and France, hate speech laws do not allow enough protection for free expression. The Council of the European Union has taken action on combating certain forms and expressions of racism and xenophobia by promoting use of the criminal law within nation states in its 2008 Framework Decision. Yet, the Framework Decision failed to adequately protect freedom of expression in particular on controversial historical debate.

Throughout European history, hate speech has been highly problematic, from the experience and ramifications of the Holocaust through to the direct incitement of ethnic violence via the state run media during wars in the former Yugoslavia. However, it is vital that hate speech laws are proportionate in order to protect freedom of expression.

On the whole, the framework for the regulation of hate speech is left to the national laws of EU member states, although all member states must comply with Articles 14 and 17 of the ECHR.[1] A number of EU member states have hate speech laws that fail to protect freedom of expression –- in particular in Poland, Germany, France and Italy.

Article 256 and 257 of the Polish Criminal Code criminalise individuals who intentionally offend religious feelings. The law criminalises public expression that insults a person or a group on account of national, ethnic, racial, or religious affiliation or the lack of a religious affiliation. Article 54 of the Polish Constitution protects freedom of speech but Article 13 prohibits any programmes or activities that promote racial or national hatred. Television is restricted by the Broadcasting Act, which states that programmes or other broadcasts must “respect the religious beliefs of the public and respect especially the Christian system of values”. In 2010, two singers, Doda and Adam Darski, where charged with violating the criminal code for their public criticism of Christianity.[2] France prohibits hate speech and insult, which are deemed to be both “public and private”, through its penal code[3] and through its press laws[4]. This criminalises speech that may have caused no significant harm whatsoever to society, which is disproportionate. Singer Bob Dylan faces the possibility of prosecution for hate speech in France. The prosecutor’s office in Paris confirmed that Dylan has been placed under [5] but these provisions are not absolute. In a landmark case in 2012, three men were convicted after distributing leaflets in Derby depicting a mannequin in a hangman’s noose and calling for the death sentence for homosexuality. The European Court of Human Rights ruled on this issue in its landmark judgment Vejdeland v. Sweden, which upheld the decision reached by the Swedish Supreme Court to convict four individuals for homophobic speech after they distributed homophobic leaflets in the lockers of pupils at a secondary school. The applicants claimed that the Swedish Supreme Court’s decision to convict them constituted an illegitimate interference with their freedom of expression. The ECtHR found no violation of Article 10, noting even if there was, the interference served a legitimate aim, namely “the protection of the reputation and rights of others”.

The widespread criminalisation of genocide denial is a particularly European legal provision. Ten EU member states criminalise either Holocaust denial, or the denial of crimes committed by the Nazi and/or Communist regimes. At EU level, Germany pushed for the criminalisation of Holocaust denial, culminating in its inclusion from the 2008 EU Framework Decision on combating certain forms and expressions of racism and xenophobia by means of criminal law. Full implementation of the Framework Decision was blocked by Britain, Sweden and Denmark, who were rightly concerned that the criminalisation of Holocaust denial would impede historical inquiry, artistic expression and public debate.

Beyond the 2008 EU Framework Decision, the EU has taken specific action to deal with hate speech in the Audiovisual Media Service Directive. Article 6 of the Directive states the authorities in each member state “must ensure by appropriate means that audiovisual media services provided by media service providers under their jurisdiction do not contain any incitement to hatred based on race, sex, religion or nationality”.

Hate speech legislation, particularly at European Union level, and the way this legislation is interpreted, must take into account freedom of expression in order to avoid disproportionate criminalisation of unpopular or offensive viewpoints or impede the study and debate of matters of historical importance.

[1] ‘Article 14 – discrimination’ contains a prohibition of discrimination; ‘Article 17 – abuse of rights’ outlines that the rights guaranteed by the Convention cannot be used to abolish or limit rights guaranteed by the Convention.

[2] The police charged vocalist and guitarist Adam Darski of Polish death metal band Behemoth with violating the Criminal Code for a performance in 2007 in Gdynia during which Darski allegedly called the Catholic Church “the most murderous cult on the planet” and tore up a copy of the Bible; singer Doda, whose real name is Dorota Rabczewska, was charged with violating the Criminal Code for saying in 2009 that the Bible was “unbelievable” and written by people “drunk on wine and smoking some kind of herbs”.

[3] Article R625-7

[4] Article 24, Law on Press Freedom of 29 July 1881

[5] The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 amended the Public Order Act 1986 by adding Part 3A[12] to criminalising attempting to “stir up religious hatred.” A further provision to protect freedom of expression (Section 29J) was added: “Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system.”
How is denying Holocaust a hate speech?

And how is agreeing with the prophet cartoon not a hate speech?
 
How is denying Holocaust a hate speech?

And how is agreeing with the prophet cartoon not a hate speech?


Because denying fact comes with predisposed agenda ?

Prophet cartoon is taken in same sense as jesus cartoon . Just because such thing rustle the jimmies of people living in 3rd world does not count under hate speech . What speech or disposition did the cartoonist gave . Yeah you are right none .

Anyways its nearly 5 in the morning in India . Please tag me in posts you guys want me to respond in . I will by sunday late evening .
 
No it isn't. The orders of the government to send Jews to concentration camps, the judges who gave those orders were all alive after WW2. This was not a one time event, it took place over a decade in a place that had radio, press and even video recordings.
Sorry to say regarding the trials I can only find on Jewish websites...Mostly Israeli...hence my reluctance to read them!
 
A little more on this subject:
  1. Why will the Zionists not release the authentic Red Cross records of the time and locations, which show who did escape, who did survived and who perished? Is it because these records show some 100,000 perished in the 6 years from 1939 to 1945, not the six million as propaganda would have it? I am not trying to excuse away the horribleness of what happened, I am trying to expose the subsequent horribleness compounded by lies and evil-inspired untruth.


  2. If 6 million Jews died at the hands of the Nazis, where did the 5.9 million who settled in Palestine, America, Canada, the UK, Australia, South America, etc., come from?


  3. If the 6 million figure is so sacrosanct and precise, why did the Auschwitz Memorial reduce the figure, on its own accord, from SIX million, to ONE million?
All this goes to show that Evil begets Evil.

Holocaust Fact and Fiction
 

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