Why is China called the longest continual civilization?

[Tractor]

Occasionally this kind of thingking come to my mind.But it is really hard to me to tell other people this meaningless glory or some other point of view the shame.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dear Joe,

Come back with the result: the book I once read (ISBN 0-88029-557-5, p33) merely says that the Aryans were perhaps the tribes in south west of Siberia (as opposed to near Caspian Sea). It doesn't specifically say they were Hun/Mongols. (note: Hun is a generic name).

Very briefly, since this single allusion of yours can keep us happily occupied for days, both facts, south-west Siberia and near the Caspian Sea, are compatible! (We can take up the Hun/Mongol discussion next).

Before luring you deeper into this quagmire of information, speculation, and combined linguistics and genetic analysis, all with a base of historical references at the bottom, perhaps it is fair to point out that we will be wading through languages, the travels of humans, archaeology and history. But it all starts with languages. You are already familiar with the fact that a large number of European languages and several Asian languages, including north Indian languages have been found to belong to the same broad group. There are very serious tomes and textbooks to hack through, but if you want a quick overview, any of a number of on-line encyclopaedias will give you the essential information.

In fact, to avoid controversy, I will refer to Wikipedia and other public sources, but with discrimination, to include only those facts that coincide with information from my other materials.

I list here some of the information relating to this hypothesis, that is:

1. it is thought that a group of wandering humans settled down and stayed in one spot for a period of some centuries. During this period, a language now known as Proto-Indo-European evolved.
2. The general location of the group at this time is not known accurately. There is speculation about this ancient home-land, and the speculation is described as the theories relating to the Urheimat.
3. One theory of the Urheimat to which I subscribe personally is the Kurgan hypothesis; some of my support is due to the decidedly subjective preference for my personal heroine, Marija Gimbutas, a polymath of awesome intellectual capacity. I attach here a graphic relating to the Kurgan Urheimat and the proposed dispersal of the folks in gradually broadening circles.
   
   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/IE_expansion.png
   
4. You will notice that the original Urheimat is on the steppes between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. This is quite consistent, but you will also notice that the Urheimat spreads in ever increasing circles in every direction.
5. The text below the graphic in the original states
   
   Map of Indo European migrations from ca. 4000 to 1000 BC according to the Kurgan model. The Anatolian migration (indicated with a dotted arrow) could have taken place either across the Caucasus or across the Balkans. The magenta area corresponds to the assumed Urheimat (Samara culture, Sredny Stog culture). The red area corresponds to the area that may have been settled by Indo-European-speaking peoples up to ca. 2500 BC, and the orange area by 1000 BC.
   
6. Of particular interest to us is therefore the 'red' and the 'orange' areas; please notice that in their eastward expansion, the people representing speakers of PIE, by now speakers of Indo-Iranian, are in the locations that I had originally mentioned, the area between the Caspian and the Aral Seas. This is about 2500 BC.
7. By 1800 BC, the Indo-Iranians had come to the general area represented by the modern Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan, Afghanistan (Balkh and the northern belt) and parts of modern-day China, the area around Kashgar.
8. Please ignore the north-eastern arrow. That represents the Tokharians, travelling to the edges of the Takla-Makan, where their mummies are to be found even today, prized heritage sites of the PRC, showing the people to be distinctly of a European racial type.
9. Let us reconcile our accounts now.
   
   While you were referring to the Urheimat locations, in and next to south-west Siberia, I was referring to the later stages just before the split between the Iranian-speaking and the 'Aryan'-speaking (nowadays better termed the Sanskrit speaking) cousins.
10. At this stage, the western branch turned around sharply and moved south-west, into Iran, as the tribes that constituted Iran; the first to move into Iran were the Medes, whom we now describe as having spoken an eastern dialect of Iranian, and they were followed by the Persians proper, with their central Iranian tongue closely related to the Avestan of the holy books of Zoroaster/ Zarathustra. They left behind a mingled horde on the original steppe-lands, in touch with both the western migrants as well as the eastern, the Sanskrit-speakers, a point on which an otherwise very sensible Indian commentator took umbrage with me.
11. These are reconstructions; the sources of the information from which we have done these reconstructions will be considered once we consider your comments on sources of Indian history. At this point, it is sufficient to say that these sources combine linguistics, a study of old myth and epic among the peoples thought to have been involved, and archaeology, this last to a limited extent.

With this brief summary, I would like to conclude my comment on your point about the two different areas that we have each indicated as the 'Aryan' homeland.

You are right that I was not accurate in the sense that not every stage of Indian history is not clear, but some periods. more so perhaps before Mauryan empire. I'm wondering what factors (life style, philosophy, ideology, religious believing, or any other reasons) that made ancient Indians relatively not interested in recording their events? Maybe they were content with Rig Vedic?

For instance, Mauryan empire was perhaps mainly studied through the edicts, potteries and coins with cross reference from foreign country's history books, but why there isn't much written materials similar to the Chinese "bamboo annals" Bamboo Annals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia where events were inscribed on a piece of bamboo, a kind of plant that should also be abundant in India?

"You may wish to consider that much of the drama and political tincturing has been due to the rise of a violent political culture in post-independence India, a culture based on an aggressive 'interpretation' of religion, culture and ethnicity and their influence on nationalism."

Do you ever read about Indian colonial rule of Indonesia? Perhaps similar to this article ? Some Western scholars don't believe so (maybe in my above-mentioned book), and dismiss it as sheer nationalism. BTW, the book actually talks about an event in 1920s, before the independence but the nationalism had been stirred up.

BTW again, the book you mentioned must be fascinating. I'd like to have a peek...

BTW trice, the site China History Forum is pretty decent in terms of studying Chinese history. Not many fanatics there and perhaps worthy visiting at your leisure time.

 

[CardSharp]

Whoa this all just went over my head. I'll try reading it again tomorrow when I'm not so foggy minded. Happy Chinese New Year, Joe!

(hope your father is well, I'd say something like he is in my prayers if I believed in God)

 

[Joe Shearer]

Whoa this all just went over my head. I'll try reading it again tomorrow when I'm not so foggy minded. Happy Chinese New Year, Joe!

(hope your father is well, I'd say something like he is in my prayers if I believed in God)

Thank you very much, CardSharp. May I wish you a very Happy New Year too.

A very Happy Chinese New Year to those of my friends who celebrate the day.

I will try to re-write my comment so that it is easier to read and understand. Apologies, all.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@gpit

An extract from the book I referred to, as a New Year gift to my friends.

Dear Joe,

Come back with the result: the book I once read (ISBN 0-88029-557-5, p33) merely says that the Aryans were perhaps the tribes in south west of Siberia (as opposed to near Caspian Sea). It doesn't specifically say they were Hun/Mongols. (note: Hun is a generic name).

I have pleasure in presenting to you the book that is such a mine of information:
Chinese Sources of South Asian History in Translation:
Data For Study Of India-China Relations Through History - Volume 1
by Professor Haraprasad Ray, ISBN 81 7236 151 3,
published by
Professor Dilip Coomer Ghose,
General Secretary,
The Asiatic Society,
1, Park Street,
Kolkata 700 016.

As you have noticed, gpit, I have put in the ISBN number, and hope you can get access to a copy of the book with that detail.

First, here is a summary by the author of prominent topics that he considers might interest us:

The Story

Some of the salient features of the materials translated may be summed up as under:

A. The Huns and the Kushana

The Northwest Indian and Central Asian panorama is extremely colourful and eventful. In this vast spectrum, the Xiongnu (Hun) and the Yuezhi or Da Yuezhi (Kushana) have played both constructive and destructive roles.

The fear of the Hun compelled the different states of China to build the Great Wall of China, but when the Wall failed to prevent the Hun invasions, the Chinese were forced to organise huge cavalry forces to contain them. The Chinese campaigns against the Hun brought the Chinese to the fringe of Northwest India, namely, Bactria, Ferghana and other countries. The Hun were instrumental in hybridization of the Chinese race through marriage, mutual surrender and other means. They also forced the Yuezhi to migrate from the west of China to Northwest India, a branch of which was known here as the Kushana (Guishuang in Chinese), the people who are known for their contribution to the social and cultural life of India.

In the course of my research, I got so many data on the Xiongnu and the Yuezhi that I felt imperative to go into the origin of the words, Xiongnu and Yuezhi. Xiongnu is wrongly rendered into English as Hun. An intensive search has been made, and a tentative conclusion has been arrived at. It transpires that at some stage, the Chinese employed them as serfs and used the name Xiongnu in the sense of brave serfs (the Hun used to be strong and intrepid in comparison with the Han).

The title of the Xiongnu chief was Chanyu (also pronounced Shanyu). We accept Bailey's derivation of the word from the Old Iranian Xsavan meaning "king": Xsavan was presumably converted into Chanyu or Shanyu through overlapping or transposition of the sound of the last part of the word (note 5 to the translated text of Shiji, j. 110).

Similarly, the word Yuezhi which has baffled scholars for a long time, is supposed to be connected with the word Kusha, which means "moon" in Tokharian language. The Chinese word Yuezhi meaning "the Moon clan" is a direct translation of the Tokharian. Later, the name was probably also pronounced Yuedi or Yaedi (Yaeti) due to historical reasons when the tribe moved into Bactria.

B Evolution of Chinese Foreign Policy on the Highlands and the Steppe of Central Asia

The intra-regional and intra-ethnical relations delineated in Shiji and Hanshu demonstrate how the Chinese diplomacy developed through alliance, intimidation, war and, above all, by dint of the policy of 'loose-rein' (jimi) and 'kind treatment' (huairou) to win the hearts and allegiance of these nomadic people called the 'uncivilised foreigners' (shufan). It shows how the Chinese emperors had to change their conciliatory attitude to belligerence due to the perennial scourge of the Hun.

Other tribes who stood in awe of the Hun and were keenly aware of the Hun hostility against the Han (Chinese), did not cooperate with the latter in selling their excellent horses for fear of Hun retaliation. When the Chinese subdued the Hun and completely subjugated the Wusun (an ally of the Hun), the situation turned for the better in favour of the Chinese court and the supply of the Central Asian 'Heavenly Horses' continued uninterruptedly. All these ups and downs are described minutely by the historian, Sima Qian, who was a witness to most of the campaigns against the unruly nomads. His and others related accounts have been translated by me in detail for the benefit of the scholars.

C. The Kushanas in Chinese History

The chequered history of the Kushana in Central Asia and India is known mainly from the Chinese sources; these are supplemented by Greek and other foreign accounts, as well as the coins and other relics available to us. The accounts of Kushana influence in the Central Asia and its friendship as well as encounter with Han China are given in the History of the Later Han Dynasty (Hou Hanshu) and other later dynastic histories from where the related chapters have been translated by me.

D. Introduction of Buddhism into China - the earliest date

Historians have so long believed that Buddhism was introduced into China during the later part of the 1st century AD. But clear evidences are now available about a Chinese scholar-official named Jinglu having received lessons in Buddhism from a Kushana (Da Yuezhi) prince or official in 2 BC. The story has been repeated in later histories also, giving it a stamp of authority. We have collected and translated them.

E. The Changing Geographical Concept of the Chinese

The concept of the Chinese geographers about Asian countries and the Roman empire has been fluid. First, they knew all about the Kokonor (Qinghai) to be the extreme limit in the west; then they knew the Bactrian and the Persian regions up to the Gulf, and, then their knowledge progressed to include the Roman Orient in Western Asia, as well as the Mediterranean and Italy. This progression became clear from my translation of extracts from Shiji, Hanshu and Hou Hanshu (i.e. from first century BC to 220 AD). All these informations have been ably summed up in Wei Lue (A Brief Account of the Wei Dynasty History), a work of 3rd Century AD.

F. The Silk Route

More than 2000 years ago, camel caravans carried China's and other's goods along the Silk Road to Central and Western Asian and European countries. The old road was more than 7,000 kms long. It began in Changan (now Xian, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi - Shensi - province), the ancient capital of the Western Han (i.e.,Former Han) dynasty (206 BC - 24 AD), passed along the Gansu corridor, and the Tarim Basin in Xinjiang, ran through Uzbekistan, Turkmenia, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq, and ended at the sea ports of the Mediterranean in Syria and Lebanon, finally stretching up to Italy.

The History of the Former (also called Western) Han Dynasty informs us about the existence of a maritime route from southern China to India over the Malayan Peninsula during 2nd century BC to 1st century AD.

Another route over the land operated from south and southwest China to North India. It ran through Northern Myanmar (Burma) and Northeast India. The Han Emperor Wu (140 to 87 BC) tried to open up this route but failed due to hostility of the local tribes and rulers of the then Yunnan region of China.

G. The "Golden Man"

An interesting discovery is made about the worship of the "Golden Man" (Jinren) among the central Asian peoples. The icon was snatched away from the Hun by the Chinese in 121 BC. The Golden Man was later identified by the Chinese as the idol of the Buddha (SJ 110, 111, HS 51, etc.).

The journey of Zhang Qian to Bactria (DaXia) and his discovery of India's name as Shendu (or Juandu) is the most significant historical incident in Asian history (SJ 123). Both Zhang Qian and Li Guanglli, the military general, were responsible for opening up the route to Central Asia and forcing the states in the region to bring tributes of horses to the Chinese court (HS 61).

H. Zhang Qian, India and the West

The adventure of Zhang Qian and consequent massive military expeditions opened up the vast Central Asian domain to the Chinese, and the historical works did not spare any pains to accommodate in their annals as much information as could be gathered out of the expeditions and through the accounts related by the traveller-traders (SJ 116, SJ 123, HS 95, 96 A + B, HHS 88, SGZ 30 - the Commentary called Wei Lue) etc. By the period of the Three Kingdoms and later (beginning from 3rd century AD), we start getting glimpses (and sometimes details) of southwest China and neighbouring states of India and Myanmar and southeast Asia (SS 97, HYGZ 4, NQS 58, TPYL 788, etc.). The early period of eastern (Later) Han dynasty (AD 25 onwards) saw the advent and dissemination of Buddhism in Central, Northwest and East China (HHS 30B, 42, etc.). The Roman Orient has become a familiar kingdom, and, with its prosperity and organisational splendour, the country arouses China's admiration, calling it Daqin (The Great China). The knowledge of Asian geography extends beyond the Mediterranean (SGZ 30, HHS 88, etc.). Buddhism and along with it the different parts of India, from Kashmir (Jibin) to South India, from Northwest India (Purusapura) to Bengal and further, became familiar names with the Chinese historians (HHS. 88, SS 97, NQS 58, WS 4, 5, 7, 8, 36, 99, 101, 102, etc.). In addition, this gallimaufry also contains exotic material llike magicians, supernatural stories, wonder drugs, and so on (XJSJ, SSJ).

In Fine

A total of sixty-one accounts and notices from thirteen treatises have been translated into English, at least seventy-five percent are made available to the Indian scholars for the first time. The total Chinese words translated amount to about 50,000, while another 9,000 words have been summarised for the sake of contextual relevance and brevity.

His original sources have been referred to above in codified form. These are indicated below:

BWZ: Bowu Zhi - Notes on the Investigation of Things
Cathay: Cathay and the Way Thither, by Yule & Cordier
G or Geng.: Geng Yinzeng, ed. of ZZZNYSLHB
H & L, or Hulsewe, A. F. P., & Loewe, M. A. N., China in Central Asia: The Early Stage, 125 BC - AD 23
HS: Hanshu - History of the Former Han Dynasty
HHS: Hou Hanshu - History of the Later Han Dynasty
HYGZ: Huayang Guo Zhi - Record of the Country South of the Mount Hua
JAOS: Journal of the American Oriental Society
JESHO: Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient
JMBRAS: Journal of the Malayan Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society
JRAS: Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society
Li H: Li Huilin
NFCMZ: Nanfang Caomu Zhuang - Plants of the Southern Regions
NQS: Nanqi shu - History of the Southern Qi Dynasty
SGZ: Sanguo Zhi - History of the Three Kingdoms
SJ: Shiji
SS: Songshu - History of the (Liu) Song Dynasty
SSJ: Soushen Ji - Records of Spiritual Manifestations
TP: T'oung Pao
TPYL: Taiping Yulan - Imperial Encyclopaedia of the Taiping Period
Trip.: Tripitaka
WS: Weishu - History of the Wei Dynasty
XHSJ: Xnhua Shuju edition
XJSJ: Xijing Zaji - Sundry Reminiscences of the Western (Han) Capital
ZZJZNYSLHB: Zhongguo Zaijizhong Nanya Shiliao Huibian

I hope you enjoy it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dear Joe,

Come back with the result: the book I once read (ISBN 0-88029-557-5, p33) merely says that the Aryans were perhaps the tribes in south west of Siberia (as opposed to near Caspian Sea). It doesn't specifically say they were Hun/Mongols. (note: Hun is a generic name).

Let us ignore the Hun/Mongols red herring, actually. There is a lot of interest in the Xiong Nu from the Indian point of view, but that is because they were the motive force for a lot of historical events on the sub-continent and in extended south Asia. From the Chinese point of view, too, as a force that encouraged consolidation of the different kingdoms of China and encouraged the formation of the first empire.

You are right that I was not accurate in the sense that not every stage of Indian history is not clear, but some periods. more so perhaps before Mauryan empire. I'm wondering what factors (life style, philosophy, ideology, religious believing, or any other reasons) that made ancient Indians relatively not interested in recording their events? Maybe they were content with Rig Vedic?

For instance, Mauryan empire was perhaps mainly studied through the edicts, potteries and coins with cross reference from foreign country's history books, but why there isn't much written materials similar to the Chinese "bamboo annals" Bamboo Annals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia where events were inscribed on a piece of bamboo, a kind of plant that should also be abundant in India?

The answer is incredibly complex. I would like to simplify things by using what we liked to call 'divide and conquer' in our software projects.

Let us try to break it up into periods of history and proto-history, our sources of information about these, and why the classic sources of information suggested by you were not available in India - essentially, this last needs to address script, written script, and media, where the script was recorded.

What were the periods of proto-history and history? A partial list:

1. Proto-history: the wanderings outside south Asia;
2. Proto-history: entry into India;
3. Proto-history: cultural and linguistic propagation through south Asia;
4. History: The Buddha and his contemporaries;
5. History: The Alexandrine invasion;
6. History: The Maurya Empire;

This is a good point to stop, since otherwise, we have to follow nine different focal points of political activity, the 9 river valleys which make up south Asian culture

• The Ganges;
• The Brahmaputra;
• The Mahanadi;
• The Godavari;
• The Krishna;
• The Kaveri;
• The Tungabhadra;
• The Narmada;
• The Indus.

So we can look at the historical periods, in one para summaries, the sources of information, and the reasons for the lack of information (or otherwise) in each of these six historical periods, three proto-historical, three historical proper: the wanderings, entry into south Asia, propagation of their culture and language, the Buddha, the Greek invasion, the Mauryan empire.

These six samples should give us enough to think about.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Chinese civilization is always very resilient, i think no one could deny this.

 

[Superboy]

China is one of the oldest, but is likely not the oldest. Neolithic era began in China about 10,000 BC, roughly in line with the cradle of civilization. China's scientific revolution came only thousands of years after the scientific revolution in the fertile crescent and borrowed a great deal from the latter. The very concept of civilization is difficult to define. Paleolithic people from 30,000 BC had bigger brains and bigger foreheads and were likely more intelligent than modern people. They had language and music and made amazing tools and created amazing art. To me at least, that qualifies as a civilization. For one, I do not accept the Chinese civilization as being the oldest. All human history is intertwined from the start. Culture and knowledge have always diffused around the globe. Where would America and China be today without the sciences and mathematics which began in the fertile crescent or the alphabet system invented by the ancient Phoenicians thousands of years ago, or without the man who uttered the very first word in human history? Every achievement we see today, up until the modern usage of electricity and electronics, machines like automobiles and airplanes, and spacecraft and exploration of space, cannot be attributed solely to one man or one culture, but must be attributed to all of humanity, working together as a whole through the eons since at least tens of thousands of years ago. Like Newton once said, "I see far because I stand on the shoulders of giants". By giants he meant all of the humans who lived before him. Every human being is a genius who makes contribution to the advancement of human society, even if by simply having babies who may one day grow up to be great scientists or philosophers or inventors or engineers. Had Chinese not made any contact with the outside world since 10,000 BC, could we see J-20 fighter jets today? Myself, at least, think not. Just my 2 cents.

Who's to say the Magdalenian culture was not an amazing civilization? Magdalenian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kolaps]

i kind of understand it but not completely.

china has a history of 5,000+ years and we are still here today.

what about Egypt? Iraq? India?

iraq- also known as Mesopotamia had the 1st recorded history of civilization and they are still here today..

some clarification would be appreciated.

What is your meaning with "we are still here today"?

No, Chinese civilization ended during Mao's Cultural Revolution.

I asked fellow Chinese members here to restore Chinese civilization and continue it so it will last forever. But I was scolded and mocked.

I don't think there's a hope for Chinese civilization existence anymore.

A lot of bad Chinese.

 

[Nan Yang]

What is your meaning with "we are still here today"?

No, Chinese civilization ended during Mao's Cultural Revolution.

I asked fellow Chinese members here to restore Chinese civilization and continue it so it will last forever. But I was scolded and mocked.

I don't think there's a hope for Chinese civilization existence anymore.

A lot of bad Chinese.

One man can end 5000 years of civilization ?

 

[Tractor]

Chinese civilization means to me is Mandarin,that's enough.Chinese character should be more simplified.

 

[JSCh]

Chinese today still worship and has an incomprehensible affinity to jade stone.

Ever wonder why?

 

[Hafizzz]

china and india,we both fall behind the world for hundreds of years~
fortunately,we r catching up now

Not "we" but only China is catching up and Indian still has a long way to go.

 

[Kolaps]

One man can end 5000 years of civilization ?

You don't know about Mao's Cultural Revolution?

 

[INDIC]

What is your meaning with "we are still here today"?

No, Chinese civilization ended during Mao's Cultural Revolution.

I asked fellow Chinese members here to restore Chinese civilization and continue it so it will last forever. But I was scolded and mocked.

I don't think there's a hope for Chinese civilization existence anymore.

A lot of bad Chinese.

I don't see anything Chinese in Chinese culture except for food and Chinese symbols. Rest seems to have disappeared. Even listening to Chinese songs, there is no trace traditional Chinese instruments