Why India Should Consider Lockheed Martin's F-16 Offer

[PARIKRAMA]

Hi ; Will the Americans offer the same level of cooperation without strings attached
as say the Russians and the French

In front of media and marketing yes, in reality.. tough.. very tough..

They have Senate which controls very much everything..

India is not UK or Israel.. we are yet not in such kind of close strategic relationship. Thus it's tough to say we will get technology as we wish...

Another thing to consider is look at DTII .. if you see lot was expected under it but progress is slow and not much has happened ..

So I am a bit apprehensive of the whole issue..

But on a positive note, the US MIC or their line in India can meet our requirements in terms of numbers pretty quickly..

 

[911]

Even though LM is pushing for F16 and DM MP has clearly indicated India is not interested even with Block 70/72.

The path going forward was LM saying start with F16 and upgrade the line to F35 and the rumoured restarting of the downgraded F22.

Yet what DM wants is basically clarity on

1. Technology really being transferred to Indian MIC
2. Investments in R&D of Indian programs under offset
3. No conditionalities for usage
4. Senate approvals and every other approval needed to be in safer side
5. Reality versus marketing aspects of the deal..
6. Realistic GE414 engine tech sharing
7. Help to other indigenous future programs

This is just getting warmed up. As I said there is a separate discussion on 4squads of F35 version in the time frame 2021-26 directly competing with DM MP backup plan of procuring a similar number of PAKFA Stage 1.

So expect a lot more carrots to be offered in future..
iMHO other than Avengers and predators of General Atomics as of today DM MP is not interested for either F16/F35 or F18s. But he is hearing them out with a hope that a very attractive proposition might come our way soon..

They just want to get rid of the junk (junk for US of course) by entirely shifting its production to India. And its hard to believe US will agree to all those points you have stated. US will never agree to deny its purchases (not even spare parts) to any specific country, its like China blocking a particular country from selling iPhones. This kind of agreement hurts actually US arms industry.

 

[luckych]

Lockheed Martin to produce latest version of F-16 jets in India by 2019-20: Report
http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/ind...-version-of-f-16-jets-in-india-by-2019-338970

 

[Joe Shearer]

Some how i do not see the decades of mistrust in the services towards the Americans going away overnight. Right from the 60s when our country was denied any lethal equipment after the 62war the forces have had a sort of a hands folded across the chest approach with the Americans.
We have conducted many exercises together which has brought a better understanding of the viability of having similar platforms , also its not like the american systems are not good, Then are!!! bloody good!!! their serviceability rate is way up in the 80% , spare parts are always available and they are much easier to maintain .

But!!!! the fact that the Americans put sanctions on us leading to the grounding of our sea kings , delays in the tejas program and other thing is not easily forgotten by either the senior brass and our Babus in the MOD. So i wonder how this will play out , will the new found love affair with the Americans take us into inducting a truly lethal platform for the first time after so many decades. Will the Americans be able to convince the top politicos is a different matter.

IMHO if we are going to go for an american platform then lets go for the F18 !!!
@PARIKRAMA @Joe Shearer your thoughts on the subject?

Succinct and to the point. We were without the Sea Kings when it counted as practically the only anti-submarine platform we could put on our destroyers. Our engineers were not allowed into the Lockheed Martin facility abruptly one morning; their own notes were withheld, and they were sent back with all the preceding hard work completely lost overnight, in an arbitrary and insulting act of arrogance, which the Chinese, who are whining such a lot nowadays, never ever faced. Not because they were stronger than us, but because they preferred to steal rather than collaborate. They restricted our computer import so that even a Mac desktop, forget about a Mac server, was barred. More later.

 

[dadeechi]

Some how i do not see the decades of mistrust in the services towards the Americans going away overnight. Right from the 60s when our country was denied any lethal equipment after the 62war the forces have had a sort of a hands folded across the chest approach with the Americans.
We have conducted many exercises together which has brought a better understanding of the viability of having similar platforms , also its not like the american systems are not good, Then are!!! bloody good!!! their serviceability rate is way up in the 80% , spare parts are always available and they are much easier to maintain .

But!!!! the fact that the Americans put sanctions on us leading to the grounding of our sea kings , delays in the tejas program and other thing is not easily forgotten by either the senior brass and our Babus in the MOD. So i wonder how this will play out , will the new found love affair with the Americans take us into inducting a truly lethal platform for the first time after so many decades. Will the Americans be able to convince the top politicos is a different matter.

IMHO if we are going to go for an american platform then lets go for the F18 !!!
@PARIKRAMA @Joe Shearer your thoughts on the subject?

Succinct and to the point. We were without the Sea Kings when it counted as practically the only anti-submarine platform we could put on our destroyers. Our engineers were not allowed into the Lockheed Martin facility abruptly one morning; their own notes were withheld, and they were sent back with all the preceding hard work completely lost overnight, in an arbitrary and insulting act of arrogance, which the Chinese, who are whining such a lot nowadays, never ever faced. Not because they were stronger than us, but because they preferred to steal rather than collaborate. They restricted our computer import so that even a Mac desktop, forget about a Mac server, was barred. More later.

What people need to understand is IAF always preferred western equipment. Western > Russian > Indian

Remember the Mirage-2K saga. IAF was fancying 100+ fighters but the intervention from the GoI made them to go for MIG-29s. Same was the case with SU-30s which were thrusted upon IAF.

What has changed now is that the left/Russia leaning government in India has been replaced by West leaning government. With both GoI & IAF favoring western equipment, the decision would be very obvious.

Just over 2 years ago India thinking of signing the foundational agreements was considered blasphemous. Today not only it is considered a certainty but we have people openly professing the advantageous in doing so.

They just need to prepare the ground. A news article every couple of days would do the trick. People will reconcile and come around sing paeans about the deal.

Full credit to Modi.
He has single handedly changed the way the country thinks.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What people need to understand is IAF always preferred western equipment. Western > Russian > Indian

Remember the Mirage-2K saga. IAF was fancying 100+ fighters but the intervention from the GoI made them to go for MIG-29s. Same was the case with SU-30s which were thrusted upon IAF.

What has changed now is that the left/Russia leaning government in India has been replaced by West leaning government. With both GoI & IAF favoring western equipment, the decision would be very obvious.

Just over 2 years ago India thinking of signing the foundational agreements was considered blasphemous. Today not only it is considered a certainty but we have people openly professing the advantageous in doing so.

They just need to prepare the ground. A news article every couple of days would do the trick. People will reconcile and come around sing paeans about the deal.

Full credit to Modi.
He has single handedly changed the way the country thinks.

A little earlier I had the evil luck of encountering someone whom I consider one of the two dumbest Indian members. It looks as if this is just not my day. The other one turns up.

So you think that acquiring the SU-30 - it being 'thrusted upon' the IAF is a bad thing?

 

[dadeechi]

So you think that acquiring the SU-30 - it being 'thrusted upon' the IAF is a bad thing?

It is not what I think. It is what it is.

It was good for GoI bad for IAF. Even after SU-30 deal IAF fancied to getting its hand on Mirage-2K assembly line in India but GoI again check mated their wish with competitive bidding for MMRCA. IAF fought back by eliminating Russian fighters from the short list and GoI went totally cold on MMRCA as a whole.

IAF had to wait for the West leaning incumbent government to cancel the MMRCA and kick start the process again.

 

[Taygibay]

Lock-Mart never offered the whole F-16 line so moot thread.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/04/11/indi-a11.html
"According to Lockheed Martin India head Phil Shaw, ...
Lockheed Martin is “in discussions with the US government, the Government of India, and our Indian industry partners about potential new production F-16 aircraft to address India’s fighter recapitalization requirements.” Noting that the “details” of “the aircraft and industrial offer would be determined in conjunction with the two governments in question,” Shaw added that it “could include unprecedented technology sharing or other favorable terms to woo the government led by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.”"

Only conditional used and on non-precised items.
And all that on a plane that didn't make the MMRCA cut
but would challenge the place of the Tejas the in IAF's role.

Oh! Well ... Tay.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It is not what I think. It is what it is.

It was good for GoI bad for IAF. Even after SU-30 deal IAF fancied to getting its hand on Mirage-2K assembly line in India but GoI again check mated their wish with competitive bidding for MMRCA. IAF fought back by eliminating Russian fighters from the short list and GoI went totally cold on MMRCA as a whole.

IAF had to wait for the West leaning incumbent government to cancel the MMRCA and kick start the process again.

I have to admit you have a point.

Apologies.

 

[dadeechi]

Lock-Mart never offered the whole F-16 line so moot thread.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/04/11/indi-a11.html
"According to Lockheed Martin India head Phil Shaw, ...
Lockheed Martin is “in discussions with the US government, the Government of India, and our Indian industry partners about potential new production F-16 aircraft to address India’s fighter recapitalization requirements.” Noting that the “details” of “the aircraft and industrial offer would be determined in conjunction with the two governments in question,” Shaw added that it “could include unprecedented technology sharing or other favorable terms to woo the government led by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.”"

Only conditional used and on non-precised items.
And all that on a plane that didn't make the MMRCA cut
but would challenge the place of the Tejas the in IAF's role.

Oh! Well ... Tay.

Funny isn't it?

French nudged the incumbent government to cancel the MMRCA to facilitate France to bypass the stringent ToT & offset clauses in MMRCA. When GoI obliged little did they know GoI also had a vested interest in cancelling the MMRCA to bring in other Western offerings into play which were technically eliminated as part of MMRCA.

At least the earlier GoI had traditionally favored French over other Western offerings due to French's independent policy. The incumbent GoI does not see others Western countries as a threat rather as partners negating the unique selling point of the French offer.

As they say be careful what you wish for....

 

[Spectre]

Succinct and to the point. We were without the Sea Kings when it counted as practically the only anti-submarine platform we could put on our destroyers. Our engineers were not allowed into the Lockheed Martin facility abruptly one morning; their own notes were withheld, and they were sent back with all the preceding hard work completely lost overnight, in an arbitrary and insulting act of arrogance, which the Chinese, who are whining such a lot nowadays, never ever faced. Not because they were stronger than us, but because they preferred to steal rather than collaborate. They restricted our computer import so that even a Mac desktop, forget about a Mac server, was barred. More later.

sob sob...

Why complain? what are our lord and savior, the united states of america giveth, can be taketh away. Are we not guilty of the same? just watch for all the stiffies and hard - ons in corridors of south block when Sri lanka, bhutan, nepal etc are mentioned. Oh boy!

 

[dadeechi]

I have to admit you have a point.

Apologies.

No need for the apologies. My elders taught me that criticisms and curse of the elders need to be considered as blessings and boons.. I do believe in that. You are elder to me and have far more experience of life than what I have ..

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

I just wonder how much the portal makes for one such news ?

Will be interesting to see the amount SAAB and LM have spent on Media Uproars...

 

[PARIKRAMA]

i would like to quote here some of the think tanks points which were given on this ..

• Stealth technology remains among the most tightly controlled American capabilities because of both the clear combat edge it provides and the huge U.S. lead in this area.
• Any expectation that the AMCA program would therefore be able to access American expertise merely because India purchased the F-16s earlier would prove to be unfounded.
• This does not constitute an argument against the purchase of the F- 16s, which is a formidable combat aircraft available at a great price and that would make India a significant player in the international aviation market.
• But it does require the IAF, and the Indian government more generally, to think carefully about the character of the AMCA program—because the alternatives here are fraught.
• Although India has boldly displayed models of a future AMCA design that includes a highly shaped fuselage and planform, the country’s capacity to build a fifth-generation fighter indigenously from scratch is actually nonexistent.
• India has, no doubt, been developing bits and pieces of stealth-related technology, pursuing research in areas such as low probability of intercept radars, radar absorbent coatings, canopy treatments, conformal antennas, and engine masking, but Indian aircraft designers are still not capable of producing those organic stealth designs that integrate highly shaped airframes, enclosed engines, embedded sensors, internal weapons, and low-emission radars in a unified package.
• Consequently, the IAF is faced with the choice of accepting an indigenous product that is likely to be inferior in combat capability or purchasing a cutting-edge stealth fighter that will advantage it in conflict but will provide few benefits in terms of technology transfer and could come with significant technology security protection obligations.
• If India chose the latter route, the U.S. F-35 would be a perfect fit for the AMCA requirement.
• F16s is likely to evolve further where its sensors and weapons are concerned — especially for foreign markets — it is unlikely to remain the premier dogfighter it was when first introduced into the United States Air Force.
• Since the IAF was looking to acquire an aircraft that would remain competitive over the next 30 years, the F-16IN appeared like a poorer choice relative to the competition in both growth potential and assurance against obsolescence.
• Although the IAF’s judgment on both these counts can be debated by airpower specialists, even the most ardent supporters of the F-16IN would find it difficult to claim that this legendary airplane would remain the world’s most nimble closein combatant or its premier multirole combat aircraft in, say, 2030.
• The more serious weaknesses identified by the IAF in regards to the F-16 pertained to its handling and turn rates.
• The concerns about handling and turn rates, however, clearly indicate something important about the IAF’s preferences while highlighting the fact that the F-16IN remains in some ways a retrograde development where close-in air combat manoeuvring is concerned.
• The fact that the CFT-equipped F-16IN would be less manoeuvrable compared to Pakistan’s F-16 Block 50/52s is a big area of concern.
• The focus on agility, turn rates, thrust to-weight ratios, handling, and in general, aerodynamic performance, provides clear indication that what the IAF wants from its new jets.
• Beyond these characteristics, the service also wanted a fighter that would be the newest of the new, something unmatched in the region, the latest of the available choices, and one with the greatest growth potential.

Perhaps it indicates the dilemma and the reality versus the hype part..-

 

[Joe Shearer]

No need for the apologies. My elders taught me that criticisms and curse of the elders need to be considered as blessings and boons.. I do believe in that. You are elder to me and have far more experience of life than what I have ..

You've left me feeling like an idiot.