Why I won't live among Hindus

[RazPaK]

The writer may be surprised, but living with Hindus in any other country other than India is actually fine.


In India, I can only feel sorry for him.

 

[my2cents]

Mate - Please refrain from making misleading statement that a discrimination is practiced for government jobs against muslims - There is no discrimination found on why muslims have lower percentages of government jobs. Here is the conclusive observation from his report -

And let me debunk your theory once again by pointing out to the same Sachar Committee report.

Government has a program where it funds Madarasas to impart education involving non-religious subjects like maths, science etc. Beyond that the only option is offering reservation and that my friend is unconstitutional.(where a particular religion is favored)

What Sachar alluded to was discrimination is public sphere. You can interpret to mean that Muslims are excluded from mainstream participation which in my book is discrimination based on omition. If there is targeted effort to bring them in par with mainstream then this situation would not arise. We would not be talking about quota for Muslims which some main stream parties are demanding presently.

 

[Sashan]

What Sachar alluded to was discrimination is public sphere. You can interpret to mean that Muslims are excluded from mainstream participation which in my book is discrimination based on omition. If there is targeted effort to bring them in par with mainstream then this situation would not arise. We would not be talking about quota for Muslims which some main stream parties are demanding presently.

I did not get you - Can you clarify?


As far as his report is concerned, wherever discrimination is mentioned, he has used "alleged" or "perceived" as his methodology consists of taking government reports and interviewing Muslims from different areas within the countries. So when the discrimination is mentioned, it is because of what these people said - So it is more subjective without any concrete proof.

And what is that targetted effort the government need to make? The government again as I mentioned above is spending its money on Madarasas - Beyond that what is that you expect the government to do? The common complaint is that the government schools in muslim areas are not upto standards but that is the complaint everywhere - While other minorities and non-SC/ST hindus re flourishing, why are muslims left out? It is time they do an introspection as well and not blame government or others. For example, the Waqf board is doing nothing to contribute in the progress of the muslim community but owns billions worth of properties.

 

[my2cents]

I did not get you - Can you clarify?


As far as his report is concerned, wherever discrimination is mentioned, he has used "alleged" or "perceived" as his methodology consists of taking government reports and interviewing Muslims from different areas within the countries. So when the discrimination is mentioned, it is because of what these people said - So it is more subjective without any concrete proof.

And what is that targetted effort the government need to make? The government again as I mentioned above is spending its money on Madarasas - Beyond that what is that you expect the government to do? The common complaint is that the government schools in muslim areas are not upto standards but that is the complaint everywhere - While other minorities and non-SC/ST hindus re flourishing, why are muslims left out? It is time they do an introspection as well and not blame government or others. For example, the Waqf board is doing nothing to contribute in the progress of the muslim community but owns billions worth of properties.

The Sachar Committee had laid to rest this long held view, by proving that on most socio-economic indicators, the condition of Muslims was comparable to most backward communities of the SC/ST's . This shows not of flavored treatment, but cumulative and comprehensive official discrimination and neglect.

 

[shahadat hussain]

I think we should start a thread why we should live among hindus ..

 

[neutral_person]

The Sachar Committee had laid to rest this long held view, by proving that on most socio-economic indicators, the condition of Muslims was comparable to most backward communities of the SC/ST's .

Indian Muslims are either descendents of Arabs, Iranians, Central Asians, or converts from Hinduism many generations ago. While numbers of Arab/Iranian/Central Asian descendants are there, the vast majority of them are converts from lower underprivileged classes of Hinduism. So it somewhat makes logical sense for them to be close to the level of SC/STs, unless you are implying that conversion to Islam magically comes with a cash reward that makes you rich.

This shows not of flavored treatment, but cumulative and comprehensive official discrimination and neglect.

No it doesn't. There can be a million reasons that a community is backward, not just discrimination. Nowhere in the (in my view biased) Sachar Committee report does it even say that it is due to discrimination, it always uses the word "alleged" when using discrimination. Guess what, people allege a lot of things, some Middle Easterns "allege" that 9/11 was an inside job, doesnt make it fact.

 

[pilgrim999]

it's almost like there are two nationalities in one country.

not two nationalities but many religions/ caste / language etc ....india is too different/ huge/diverse to be identified by only hindu or muslims...ther are other religeon, rich and poor, veg and non veg.....modern and conservatives....young and old, radicals and secular, pseudo seculars...and the list goe on and on.....shame on the housing incident....btw if yu tried to troll....better luck..next time.....india is not perfect but still improving......

 

[pilgrim999]

Prove the false info dear, if you can.
If you need a government assessment go and browse the nic site. You would be able to find the ethnic progress in INDIA.
Just for general informationNot a comprehensive list)
1. Muslim education level is least in India, particularly the muslims that got the education from government schools. Most of the education is done by muslim run and controlled schools.

2. Job scenario in government office. Les than 2.5% representation for muslims in ALL government jobs. Muslim bread and butter is by thier own efforts, CHAP.

3. Less than 5% share in total economy.

4. The number of muslims in policy planning and implementation can be counted on fingers since independance.

5. There are less than 2% muslims in defence. And more less at officers level.

6. Muslim representation in Police and adminsitration is meagre as well.

The list can go on and on .....

The same situation existed for the downcast hindus in independant India and they were given reservation at all level in Indian setup. Now these downcast hindus have a very strong base over all.

As a remedy when muslim ask for this they are told that India is secular and we can not entertain a religious based policy!

Kashif

brother, if yu take the face of the issue then the other communities who developed and thrived and i am not stating religeons are the ones who put in hard work and risk takers and innovative.....goverment intervention did not bring about the change as much is desired. the school faclities in rural india are the same ....yu have to think that why there is a huge literacy issue with the community with yur so called local leaders pushing people to religeous schools which cannot prepare any one for any living apart from being a preacher....being secular does not mean distributing freebies but provoidning equal oppurtunities to every one.....people have to be eligible for jobs...cant just make doctors / police/ else profession on basis of religeon but merit...sam goes for our politicians.....and i dont think much for our politicans from community who fail to work for betterment of their areas rather than just asking for qouta....as far as reservations are concerned in india the strength are so much o fthe jobless that we will never be able to have a cut off date for the reservations. money and eductaion counts....

bottom line ....khan brothers bolly wood and Dr Kalam an orphan from a fishing village...so pse dont give us this crap....

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Yes there are problems in some areas in mumbai i guess,it is under the sway of the shiv sena who have a religious extremist outlook.

 

[Sashan]

The Sachar Committee had laid to rest this long held view, by proving that on most socio-economic indicators, the condition of Muslims was comparable to most backward communities of the SC/ST's . This shows not of flavored treatment, but cumulative and comprehensive official discrimination and neglect.

Now aren't we starting to go around in circles? Many of the muslims lag behind on most socio-economic indicators but there is no where Sachar committee report states there is official discrimination and neglect(I showed you right from the report for government jobs where he states there is no discrimination) - So do come out of your argument about discrimination - I showed you one of the factors on them lagging behind is due to lower perceived benefits on the returns for education. Likewise there are numerous factors - mostly self inflicted - which has made them lag behind.




PS: Please do not send a wrong message to the people reading here(non-Indians) that there is discrimination practised by government of India against muslims. Read the 425 page sachar report and assess it properly.

 

[my2cents]

Indian Muslims are either descendents of Arabs, Iranians, Central Asians, or converts from Hinduism many generations ago. While numbers of Arab/Iranian/Central Asian descendants are there, the vast majority of them are converts from lower underprivileged classes of Hinduism. So it somewhat makes logical sense for them to be close to the level of SC/STs, unless you are implying that conversion to Islam magically comes with a cash reward that makes you rich.



No it doesn't. There can be a million reasons that a community is backward, not just discrimination. Nowhere in the (in my view biased) Sachar Committee report does it even say that it is due to discrimination, it always uses the word "alleged" when using discrimination. Guess what, people allege a lot of things, some Middle Easterns "allege" that 9/11 was an inside job, doesnt make it fact.

In some quarters this was not obvious that our minorities especially muslims in our country are lagging behind. After the Sachar report it has become obvious that a lot has to be done to improve their socio-economic conditions to bring them on par with rest.
Such committees have come and gone but their recommendations have been thrown by the wayside. After 65 years we have been unable to lift them out of poverty and backwardness then we have nobody to blame but overselves for this neglect. We have been exposed and we have to remedy this situation.

 

[Sashan]

In some quarters this was not obvious that our minorities especially muslims in our country are lagging behind. After the Sachar report it has become obvious that a lot has to be done to improve their socio-economic conditions to bring them on par with rest.
Such committees have come and gone but their recommendations have been thrown by the wayside. After 65 years we have been unable to lift them out of poverty and backwardness then we have nobody to blame but overselves for this neglect. We have been exposed and we have to remedy this situation.

Mate - what is that we have to blame ourselves mentality? True - the muslims are lagging behind in socio-economic conditions and them lagging behind is not good for India. But the leaders of the community need to step up but will the conservatives allow them? No. Perfect example is Shah Bano case. Other minorities flourish here in India and there is no official discrimination. What does that tell you?

Having stated that, I will not agree on Sachar committee report recommendations - For example, when he agrees there is no perceived discrimination in government jobs, Sachar recommends minorities sitting in job interview panels - so what is this moron thinking his recommendation will do - that making minorities sit in job panels(apart from those minorities who get to sit in as per the norms available today) will make them select minorities? What is that he is trying to do here? Introduce a bias and nothing else. Apart from the findings which is a consolidation of multiple government reports I would say many of his recommendations are nothing but garbage.

I do not have an answer on how to bring them up but I will not have the majority or the government take the blame except for factors like neglecting to improve the government school education system.

 

[my2cents]

Mate - what is that we have to blame ourselves mentality? True - the muslims are lagging behind in socio-economic conditions and them lagging behind is not good for India. But the leaders of the community need to step up but will the conservatives allow them? No. Perfect example is Shah Bano case. Other minorities flourish here in India and there is no official discrimination. What does that tell you?

Having stated that, I will not agree on Sachar committee report recommendations - For example, when he agrees there is no perceived discrimination in government jobs, Sachar recommends minorities sitting in job interview panels - so what is this moron thinking his recommendation will do - that making minorities sit in job panels(apart from those minorities who get to sit in as per the norms available today) will make them select minorities? What is that he is trying to do here? Introduce a bias and nothing else. Apart from the findings which is a consolidation of multiple government reports I would say many of his recommendations are nothing but garbage.

I do not have an answer on how to bring them up but I will not have the majority or the government take the blame except for factors like neglecting to improve the government school education system.

Any time we find a community is lagging we need to pull them up..... otherwise they end up pulling us all down. We have already seen how these community leaders have failed in Shah Bano case. Thanks for bringing it up. The Congress govt. caved in to orthodoxy and instead of upholding the ruling in her case, strengthened these archaic personal laws. We should have one law for everyone in the country and our courts should have overriding power over any personal boards decisions. My point is our country vision for our minorities has been hijacked by these leaders. These community leaders have not stepped up to the plate in making our country truely secular and inclusive.

I agree with you that there are no easy answers to address these inequities. I am not advocating appeasement of one community over other but sometimes we have to find ways to reach out through NGO's , social activists etc. My only concern is if we do not address the discontent which is simmering among our muslim communities then it may explode on our face one day.

 

[KS]

Yes there are problems in some areas in mumbai i guess,it is under the sway of the shiv sena who have a religious extremist outlook.

Mumbai needs a Shiv Sena. Period. They were the ones who belled the cats and the reason why the cats have not taken their bells off till now.

Such committees have come and gone but their recommendations have been thrown by the wayside. After 65 years we have been unable to lift them out of poverty and backwardness then we have nobody to blame but overselves for this neglect. We have been exposed and we have to remedy this situation.

One cannot help someone who is unwilling to help himself. After all you can only take the horse to the water, but you cannot make it drink. When you have Muslim leader saying "arey hindustan, hum pachis karod hai na, tum sau karod hain na theek hain tum humare se itna jyada hain, pandra minute ke liye police ko hatale bata denge, kismein kitna himmat hain, koun taakatwar hain, pandra minute hatalo police ko" there is not much hope. And this is no two bit maulvi or self-styled cleric but the Leader of Opposition of Andra Pradesh.

 

[A.Rafay]

Mumbai needs a Shiv Sena. Period.

Pakistan needs a couple of hafiz saeeds and life for Indians will become hell!!!