Why go for cobras, why not ground attack aircraft?

[AD101]

again I quote the above two links
discussed at length

yes, but this thread specifically discusses why we cant go for dive bombing for precision attacks and why going for costly fighter jets and cobra helis when the old dive bombers could deliver the same amount of firepower. The point is not about design of a CAS Aircraft

 

[Free Soul]

The crew compartment yes but not the whole aircraft

Forget 20mm did you know a 12.77mm (50 Cal) machine gun can make Swiss cheese out of an armored vehicle at close range

Below A-10 Thunderbolt II suffered heavy anti-aircraft artillery (AAA) damage over Baghdad in early 2003. It successfully returned to base.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ation-post2673670.html?highlight=#post2673670

 

[Awesome]

Hello guys,

the post might look odd, but lets consider it for a while. The costs of operating and maintaining gunships like cobras and fighters like f-16s are enormous. The dive bombers of WW2 like Ju-87 stuka delivered a massive firepower almost equavilant to cobra with deadly accuracy and in my belief should be a lot cheaper than todays fighters jets. Why not use such cheap aircraft instead of using expensive f-16s for ground support specially in war on terror?

I think a Stuka would be more expensive as its now an antique

 

[untitled]

I think a Stuka would be more expensive as its now an antique

If we are that serious about inducting one why not just get hold of a copy and let our Chinese friends reverse engineer it for us

 

[Awesome]

A plane needs to do the distance and a gunship needs to be available on the front.

For this purpose we need a chopper based gunship. Strafing has already been mentioned - do not forget suppression fire as well in support of ground troops.

Of course for dedicated ground support an F-16 is unsuitable, a gattling gun fixed on an aircraft has its advantages in terms of ground support.

 

[untitled]

Decline of dive bombing

After WWII, the dive bomber class quickly disappeared. Anti-aircraft warfare had improved, as had the speed and effectiveness of fighter aircraft against the vulnerable, slow-flying dive bombers. At the same time the quality of various computing bomb sights allowed for better accuracy from smaller dive angles, and the sights could be fitted to almost any plane, especially fighter aircraft, improving the effectiveness of ground-attack aircraft. Although the aircraft could still "dive" on their targets to some degree, they were no longer optimized for steep diving attacks at the expense of other capabilities as the dive bombers of old. As these same aircraft were capable of many other missions as well, they were no longer considered to be dive bombers.

After pioneering efforts in World War II by both the Nazi-era Luftwaffe with the Fritz X, and the USAAF with the Azon controlled-trajectory bombs, today's smart bombs have largely replaced the need for dedicated attack platforms. Bombs can be dropped many miles from the target at high altitudes, placing the aircraft at little risk. The bomb then guides itself onto the target through a number of means, which can include laser designation, onboard GPS, radar, infrared, television guidance, and inertial wind-correction. Bomb sights continue to supply several "toss bombing" modes, a sort of reverse dive bombing where an aircraft releases its bomb while steeply pulling up from low level. Shallow, 45° or less dive bombing attacks are still used to deliver gravity bombs when they are employed, although this is as much to keep the target in view as an attempt to improve accuracy.

 

[AD101]

If we are that serious about inducting one why not just get hold of a copy and let our Chinese friends reverse engineer it for us

Exactly the same thing I am talking about. It was able to carry some 1000-1200 kg of bombs coupled with machine guns. A firepower equal or even better than todays gunships. We can't forget its accuracy and psychological impact. The knowledge already exists. Even a country like Pakistan can reverse engineer it. My Point is that going into the high precision smart bombs ($70,000) is good for a conflict with India but in a conflict like WOT, we need to resurrect some old ideas to prevent the economic collapse(faced by USA and Europe) these days.

For price of 1 hour flight time of Eurofighter or F-16 definitely more than 1 stukas could fly (they wont be needing high tech avionics, navigation and all). And 3 or 4 stukas screaming in 90 degree dives on their targets will create havoc for insurgents on ground.

I think a Stuka would be more expensive as its now an antique

Brother the knowledge is still out there. all we need to do is just to study the old design. We don't have to make cruise missiles or stealth aircraft for which years of research and billions of dollars are required. My point is that Operating costs of something like stuka in a conflict like WOT would be a hell lot less than current aircraft used for ground support.

 

[Awesome]

Brother the knowledge is still out there. all we need to do is just to study the old design. We don't have to make cruise missiles or stealth aircraft for which years of research and billions of dollars are required. My point is that Operating costs of something like stuka in a conflict like WOT would be a hell lot less than current aircraft used for ground support.

TTP is equipped with SAMs, if you're going to use dive bombing they will be picked out of the skies.

 

[AD101]

Decline of dive bombing

Friend point is again the same. I am not advocating the idea of using stukas against India or USA. Even if USA uses apaches againts the russians in classic conventional war, they will be shot down like turkeys due to the advanced russian sam batteries like "TANGUSKA". This idea is reserved for COIN only where normal tactics have to be changed.

TTP is equipped with SAMs, if you're going to use dive bombing they will be picked out of the skies.

You have some reference?

 

[Awesome]

You have some reference?

Every lallu panju has stingers in that region .

 

[AD101]

Than the Pakistan Army's whole fleet of cobras should be immediately sold because india has got radar guided guns. What use is left of them. LOL.

Brother Atleast I have not heard of any SAM thing with TTP, and if there is it might be a very rare case. My point is all about cutting costs in order to get more efficiency. In this war we don't need planes flying with AESA radars, BVR capability etc. We need lots of planes with a lots of bombs to make a psychological impact upon those insurgents exactly like they make a psychological impact on us with their beheadings and suicide attacks.

 

[Jango]

Than the Pakistan Army's whole fleet of cobras should be immediately sold because india has got radar guided guns. What use is left of them. LOL.

Brother Atleast I have not heard of any SAM thing with TTP, and if there is it might be a very rare case. My point is all about cutting costs in order to get more efficiency. In this war we don't need planes flying with AESA radars, BVR capability etc. We need lots of planes with a lots of bombs to make a psychological impact upon those insurgents exactly like they make a psychological impact on us with their beheadings and suicide attacks.

Uh you mean carpet bombings, on a much bigger scale???

 

[AD101]

no. 2 or 3 aircraft diving on the same target. Lets say some bunker on rugged mountain in SW. I am talking about dive bombing which definitely points to accuracy and carpet bombing is not accuracy.

 

[Jango]

no. 2 or 3 aircraft diving on the same target. Lets say some bunker on rugged mountain in SW. I am talking about dive bombing which definitely points to accuracy and carpet bombing is not accuracy.

If it is a Bunker, what use does 2 or 3 aircraft, crude aircraft do, when you can drop one guided munition, bang on the bullseye, with a 95% + success rate?

 

[born]

Dive bombing involves huge risk.Why would you want to risk the life of a pilot(which obviously is the most precious resource),when you can do the same job safely from 10 kms away.

If I was a general i would always prefer to sent a $50 million plane with precision guided weapons than a $1 million dive bomber,because the $50 million plane ensures the safe return of my pilot.