Why Doesn't Pakistan Issue MMRCA Tender?

[Qasibr]

"Can't count them as MMRCA"... MMRCA isn't some standard, which the F-16 fails at. It's just a strange, silly term that India's coined for a military purchase.

We're upgrading our F-16 fleet from around 36 Block-15 F-16A/Bs to 108 Block-52 F-16C/Ds. When India sends it's loaded SU-30s across the International Border in 2008, these F-16s intercept it and the SU-30s scurry back. Which illustrates my point that they are quiet effective("counted as MMRCA" as you'd say I guess).

Plus, the J-10 platform performs wonderfully. I'm sure alot of people in the indo intelligence community are also very anxious about it and it's performance. China's fielded this aircraft for a number of years, even it's J-10B variant which we're likely to get has been in service for a while now. China shares it's operational and performance details with Pakistan, a former president even sat in the cockpit of one. India is not accorded that priviledge, so I'm afraid you'd have to wait quiet a bit to find out details about it's performance and capabilities.

Cheers

 

[trident2010]

Each contender in Indian MRCA spent $100 million+ for trials knowing that only one will be selected. I am not sure if they want to do the same for PAF tender. I might be wrong.

 

[Qasibr]

$100 Mil... do you have a reference link on that? Unless there are huge kickbacks going on with each side trying to bribe it's way in, it's hard to imagine this being accurate.

$100 mill is 1% of the entire potential deal(for roughly 10b), no profit seeking entity with a board and shareholders would commit to this, especially where four of them would gain nothing. At any rate, if this is true then I guess we've been underestimating how desperate France is to sell Rafales. I just can't imagine the US putting down a 100 mil to sell India F-16s and -18s. India could pay for the whole thing and spend half a billion $ on the tests.

 

[SBD-3]

Each contender in Indian MRCA spent $100 million+ for trials knowing that only one will be selected. I am not sure if they want to do the same for PAF tender. I might be wrong.

waow.....100 Mio each for just trials....! It does only make sense if used appropriately i.e. Trials and Bribes....

 

[Qasibr]

I highly doubt the 100 mil quote. I would be very skeptical about the business sense of the people running the companies that manufacture those aircraft, if four of those five companies were dishing out 100 million with no prospects of getting anything back.

The only way I see this thing even remotely being true, is if the Indians have agreed to reimburse all companies for any expenses they incur, meaning that the Indians would be wasting half a billion dollars away on this. Good for them(and us)!

Personally I find this whole MMRCA thing very suspicious. Brazil is known to be trying to get 36 Rafales for 8-10 Billion. I've read somewhere that the Saudi Eurofighter deal for 36 aircraft was costing around 8 billion, with an option to go for 72 aircraft. How in God's green Earth, is India going to get these aircraft manufacturers to give it 100+ aircraft for 10 Billion?

India has a track record of this. They started a super expensive arjun tank project in the 80's, it was supposed to be complete in a few years and it was going to be superior to anything we had(according to their biased sources). Similarly, the LCA was going to be a very effective fighter produced in large numbers. Our strategic planners probably know better than to worry or take it too seriously everytime India announces another superdooper project that is going to change everything.

So with this in light, Pakistan does not announce it's own "MMRCA" because we take logical steps to purchase whatever makes the most sense for us. Increasing our F-16 fleet to 108(all new, or upgraded with new avionics), mass producing the JFT, and getting J-10s as they mature is what we're going for. We do not want to issue a 10 billion tender for ~120 aircraft(the money's enough for ~30 modern aircraft), because either we would have to spend five times the $ we budgeted for, or settle for skeleton Eurofighters or Rafales that *look* like an EF but function like a Cessna.

To each his own!

 

[conworldus]

I am sorry but this whole Indian MMRCA tender thing looks like a circus. Military purchase shouldn't be done this way because when you buy a plane you want to get to know the tech details first, which will include some secret. When you have 6 companies openly competing, the change of winning is only 1/6, so most will only reveal insufficient information, or it will opt to sell some knocked down parts. This is a terrible strategy although fantastic PR.

 

[SEAL]

I am sorry but this whole Indian MMRCA tender thing looks like a circus. Military purchase shouldn't be done this way because when you buy a plane you want to get to know the tech details first, which will include some secret. When you have 6 companies openly competing, the change of winning is only 1/6, so most will only reveal insufficient information, or it will opt to sell some knocked down parts. This is a terrible strategy although fantastic PR.

Its due to the fact that Indian air force have no idea about western aircrafts if u remember Indians were furious with L.M (Lockheed Martin) n USA over F-16s sale to Pakistan later L.M explained them F-16IN is more advanced than PAF F-16s and you know they are testing aircrafts like this

Gripen engine start =2 sec= 10/10
F-16 engine start =3 sec= 8/10
50 Points if you paint IAF logo on them
If Indian pilot gets a free ride=100 points
Aircrafts which can't perform cobra will declared failed.

 

[India Rising]

for ur kind information, read this

NEW DELHI: Even as the Americans, Europeans and Russians jostle to bag the ‘‘ mother of all defence deals’’ , India too is now pressing the throttle to ensure the contract to acquire 126 new fighters under the Rs 42,000-crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project is inked by mid-2011 . “We will be signing the contract within a year. The flight evaluation report on the bidding aircraft will be ready by this month-end ,” Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said.

The IAF, after all, wants to induct the first lot of these 126 fighters by 2014 to retain its combat edge. It is left with just 32 fighter squadrons (each has 12 to 18 jets) at present , down from the ‘‘ sanctioned’ ’ strength of 39.5 squadrons. This when Pakistan is getting new American F-16 s and Chinese fighters , while China assiduously builds new airbases in Tibet and south China.

‘‘ We are ready with the flight evaluation trials (FET) report of the six foreign fighters in contention. Based on it, we are right now generating the staff evaluation report. Both will be submitted to defence ministry by this monthend ,’’ said IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, in an exclusive interview to TOI. The eagerly-awaited reports, which have evaluated the fighters on as many as 643 technical attributes after gruelling field trials, will be followed by evaluation of offset proposals, opening of commercial bids and the final complex negotiations.

The hotly-contested race to bag the lucrative MMRCA project, the largest such programme around the globe, is among F/A-18 ‘Super Hornet’ and F-16 ‘Falcon’ (both US), Gripen (Swedish), Rafale (French), MiG-35 (Russian) and Eurofighter Typhoon jets.

‘‘ We definitely need the MMRCA, LCA (the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft ) and FGFA (the fifth-generation fighter aircraft to be developed with Russia) without any delays to retain our combat edge,’’ said ACM Naik. ‘‘ We also have signed deals for 230 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters (over 110 have been inducted) with Russia. Another 42 Sukhois will be ordered soon. We want at least 42 fighter squadrons by 2022,’’ he added.

All eyes, of course, are on the MMRCA project. “The trials have been conducted in an exemplary, fair and professional manner. We have to be very transparent because the deal is very large,’’ said the IAF chief. ‘‘The amount of data collated in our voluminous and exhaustive reports is phenomenal. They, in fact, can serve as a template to evaluate aircraft by any country,’’ he added.

As reported earlier, India is also likely to factor in its geostrategic interests while deciding the MMRCA winner, with PM Manmohan Singh himself holding that large defence deals must be leveraged to serve the country’s larger diplomatic ends.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ow/6180295.cms

 

[Qasibr]

Dude that's a biased Indian news source. Unlike Pakistan, India's media is very much under the thumb of it's establishment and regularly pushes stories that augment the govt's agenda. If they decide to haggle all defense contractors like they're participating in some tv game show for publicity, good for them!

Here's another example of India media spin: Claiming Pakistan has signed an MoU to jointly develop a 5th generation stealth variant of the JFT, to counter India's "workhorse warplane" MiG-21s(!!!).
http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?687957

They have different agendas, the masses would not know the difference between the combat effectiveness of a biplane and the JFT, and the media gets to use that ignorance to peddle to them stories on how they should spend billions to get some more aircraft while hundreds of millions of those people remain as poor as sub-saharan Africa.

 

[muse]

“The trials have been conducted in an exemplary, fair and professional manner. We have to be very transparent because the deal is very large,’’ said the IAF chief. ‘‘The amount of data collated in our voluminous and exhaustive reports is phenomenal. They, in fact, can serve as a template to evaluate aircraft by any country,..."


Indians can help PAF and will no doubt share the "volominous and exhaustive reports" and in doing so allow other countries to gain more confidence to learn from IAF processes.

 

[somebozo]

“The trials have been conducted in an exemplary, fair and professional manner. We have to be very transparent because the deal is very large,’’ said the IAF chief. ‘‘The amount of data collated in our voluminous and exhaustive reports is phenomenal. They, in fact, can serve as a template to evaluate aircraft by any country,..."

A lot of hot air is here. Either IAF is the first country in the world to buy MMRCA or they simply like to haggle reputed defence contractors in "finer details" to push the price lower and lower.

 

[muse]

All bright bulbs know there is more to choosing weapons systems than the "price", which is itself an elastic, evolving proposition. Were IAF to share these "voluiminous and exhaustive reports" with PAF, it would contribute to building trust and allow other operators to learn from the IAF as well; as they say, the taste of the pudding is in the eating.

 

[pakpower]

Pataa nahin Indians koo Humm Pakistanion saee kaya Alergy hai harr achae post koo burraa bananae kaee liyaee koshish kartae rehtae hain damn..............

 

[Arsalan]

I am sorry but this whole Indian MMRCA tender thing looks like a circus. Military purchase shouldn't be done this way because when you buy a plane you want to get to know the tech details first, which will include some secret. When you have 6 companies openly competing, the change of winning is only 1/6, so most will only reveal insufficient information, or it will opt to sell some knocked down parts. This is a terrible strategy although fantastic PR.

actually it is more then a military deal now, it is becomming a big political game. India in a bid to strengthen there newly formed relations with USA will be giving added points to F-16 and F-18 whereas this will let down the Russians.
India is geeting in a position where they want to get US but cannot afford to lose Russia!

Indian Government is also suing the deal as lime light, and, that is fair enough. every political leader would love to have such acheivement or dels on his credit.

it would be intresting to see how Indian come out of this situation,

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

Each contender in Indian MRCA spent $100 million+ for trials knowing that only one will be selected. I am not sure if they want to do the same for PAF tender. I might be wrong.

son they didnt do so out of shear love for India, ,
its the big money game dear, anyone offering $$$ will get the previlliges..

however can you give some source claiming the 100million $ spending thing??

regards!