What's new

Why did Winston Churchill hate the Hindus and prefer the Muslims?

The idea of forced conversions is just comforting for Hindus that could not believe anyone would willingly convert away from their wonderful faith.

Yet the reality is people throughout history have converted due to wanting the wealth & status of the ruling classes. This is nothing close to ‘forced’ conversion, people did it to advance their careers & status - just like the lower caste Hindus who are converting to Christianity in India to this day.
Those who are taking up Christianity is they're being handsomely paid by those christian missionaries, mostly people below the poverty line. If their annual family income is under Rs.50k but you're offered 5-10L for being converted...it's obvious they'd be lured into it
 
.
The people the most unconquered, or who constantly put up a fight historically in the region are probably the people of the Deccan, the forest tribals of C. India, NW frontiers peoples. All of these people had terrain to their advantage.

Deccan people if so defeated would spring back fast in the form of the Marathas, or Vijayanagar, etc. Forest tribals to this day fight in the form of the Maoists and historically everyone from the Mauryas to the Mughals left them alone or used them as auxiliaries. They have an obvious huge terrain advantage. NW frontiers, Afghan people's land may get subjugated, but they would resists all to this day in the form of the Taliban, etc. Obviously again a terrain advantage.

Just my opinion.
 
.
I bet you folks didn't know that towards the end of his life his family were actually begging him not to convert to Islam, he was quite taken with the Muslims of various nations.

He is indelibly associated with the fight to preserve Britain and its Empire from Nazi invasion and his subsequent denouncement of Soviet totalitarianism’s Iron Curtain.

In the public eye, Sir Winston Churchill’s long political career earned him a place among the greatest of Britons.

But what may come as a surprise is that he was a strong admirer of Islam and the culture of the Orient — such was his regard for the Muslim faith that relatives feared he might convert.

The revelation comes with the discovery of a letter to Churchill from his future sister-in-law, Lady Gwendoline Bertie, written in August 1907, in which she urges him to rein in his enthusiasm.


In the letter, discovered by Warren Dockter, a history research fellow at Cambridge University, she pleads: “Please don’t become converted to Islam; I have noticed in your disposition a tendency to orientalise [fascination with the Orient and Islam], Pasha-like tendencies, I really have.”


Lady Gwendoline, who married Churchill’s brother Jack, adds: “If you come into contact with Islam your conversion might be effected with greater ease than you might have supposed, call of the blood, don’t you know what I mean, do fight against it.”

In a letter to Lady Lytton in the same year Churchill wrote: “You will think me a pasha [rank of distinction in the Ottoman Empire]. I wish I were.”

Churchill’s fascination led him and his close friend Wilfrid S. Blunt, the poet and radical supporter of Muslim causes, to dressing in Arab clothes in private while in each other’s company. Dr Dockter said of the letter from Lady Gwendoline: “Churchill had fought in Sudan and on the North West frontier of India so had much experience on being in 'Islamic areas’.

“But during this period Churchill was in the Liberal phase of his career, having switched to the Liberals in 1904.

“He often came to loggerheads on imperial policies with hard-line imperialists such as Frederick Lugard, the High Commissioner of Northern Nigeria. Churchill was opposed to Lugard’s punitive expeditions against Islamic tribes in northern Nigeria.”

churchill-letter-i_3149300c.jpg
In a letter to Lady Lytton in the same year Churchill wrote: “You will think me a pasha [rank of distinction in the Ottoman Empire]. I wish I were.” The Sir Winston Churchill Archive Trust

The letter was discovered by Dr Dockter while researching his forthcoming book, Winston Churchill and the Islamic World: Orientalism, Empire and Diplomacy in the Middle East.

He points out that Lady Gwendoline’s concerns may not have been so wide of the mark. Not only did Churchill appear to regard Islam and Christianity as equals – a surprisingly progressive notion for the time – but he also admired the military prowess and history of expansion of the Ottoman Empire.


In October 1940, as Britain faced its darkest hour against Nazi Germany, Churchill approved plans to build a mosque in central London and set aside £100,000 for the project. He continued to back the building of what became the London Central Mosque in Regent’s Park – which he hoped would win support for Britain in the Muslim world at a crucial moment – even in the face of public criticism.

In December 1941, he told the House of Commons: “Many of our friends in Muslim countries all over the East have already expressed great appreciation of this gift.”

Churchill’s attitude may appear hypocritical, given his forthright defence of the British Empire – which at its height ruled over millions of Muslims across India, Egypt and the Middle East.

In his book The River War (1899) – his account of the frontier wars of India and Sudan – he was scathing of the fundamentalist, ultra conservative Mahdiyya form of Islam adopted by the Dervish population of North Africa.

He states: “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries ... Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce ... The influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.”

Lady_Gwendeline_Sp_3149305c.jpg
Lady Gwendeline Spencer Churchill (National Portrait Gallery London)

But Dr Dockter says a closer examination of Churchill’s attitude to the wider Muslim world reveals it to be “in stark contrast to the purely imperialistic and orientalist perspective of many of his contemporaries”.

In his book, he states: “His views of Islamic people and culture were an often paradoxical and complex combination of imperialist perceptions composed of typical orientalist ideals fused with the respect, understanding and magnanimity he had gained from his experiences in his early military career, creating a perspective that was uniquely Churchillian.”

The revelation that Churchill had a close affinity for Muslim culture comes at a time when tensions between the three great monotheistic faiths, Christianity, Judaism and Islam are greater than they have been for centuries.

Ironically, many of the fault lines between Islam and the West have their roots in the world Churchill helped shape after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the redrawing of the Middle East at the end of the First World War.

The settlements between the region’s colonial powers, brokered by Churchill, with T E Lawrence – “Lawrence of Arabia” – as an adviser, gave birth, in Dr Dockter’s words, to “the Middle East we know, warts and all”.

winston-churchill-_3149307c.jpg
Sir Winston Churchill in Bangalore, India in 1897

Dr Dockter, who assisted Boris Johnson on his book The Churchill Factor, said: “Not many people are aware that Churchill and T E Lawrence were friends or that they worked together to solve the riddles of the Middle Eastern settlements. Understanding these settlements is paramount to understanding the legacy of Britain in the Middle East.”

Of course, Churchill did not convert to Islam, and Dr Dockter concludes that his fascination was “largely predicated on Victorian notions, which heavily romanticised the nomadic lifestyle and honour culture of the Bedouin tribes”.

Such was his limited understanding of Islam that as colonial secretary during the early 1920s he had to ask what the difference was between Shia and Sunni Muslims, the two major groupings whose long-standing animosity is currently playing out in Syria and Iraq.

As Dr Dockter points out, at least he had the good sense to ask the question in the first place, regarding an issue which bedevils the West’s involvement in the region to this day.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/re...-family-feared-he-might-convert-to-Islam.html
 
.
Throughout history, most instances show that the victorious soldiers tend to rape women of the loosing side. This is evident from the Nanjing massacare or during WW-2 most recently. The Indus valley mostly consisted of non-muslim population but the demographics have changed all along due to invasions by the barbaric hordes of Central Asia which resulted in forced conversions or rape

Your assessment and understanding is wrong. Muslims started visiting the sub continent since 653 AD. Ummayads took sindh in early 700 and since then there has been countless wars and victories. Muslims migrated, soldiers settled. Over the course of a thousand year rule, muslims still a minority in india, shows there were no forced conversions. A thousand years is too much for india to be converted to majority muslim. The safavid empire in persia converted a majority sunni into majority shia iran in just 300 years.
The majority conversions were because of ppl saw Islam as a religion without caste and where everyone is equal. Sufism also played a big role in those conversions.
Read neutral history and not RSS mandated BS.
 
.
Most North Indian muslims and Pakistanis are off spring of the same with many of them being forcefully converted
Indian muslims are even more native then brahmins. Its hard to find any traces of foreign ancestry among Indian muslims who claim it let alone all.
 
.
Your assessment and understanding is wrong. Muslims started visiting the sub continent since 653 AD. Ummayads took sindh in early 700 and since then there has been countless wars and victories. Muslims migrated, soldiers settled. Over the course of a thousand year rule, muslims still a minority in india, shows there were no forced conversions. A thousand years is too much for india to be converted to majority muslim. The safavid empire in persia converted a majority sunni into majority shia iran in just 300 years.
The majority conversions were because of ppl saw Islam as a religion without caste and where everyone is equal. Sufism also played a big role in those conversions.
Read neutral history and not RSS mandated BS.
You know the Indus valley and the region to it's east has always been much more developed than that of the middle east or Central Asian region which has been significantly harder to impose forced conversion on a larger extent coupled with relatively higher populations. Throughout history, most of the great empires extended and stopped to where the current Pakistan is
persian_empire.jpg

Persian Empire
Alexander-Empire_323bc.jpg

Alexander's empire
Umayyad750ADloc.png

Umayyad Caliphate
 
.
Was there any region which had Muslim majority population before Islam came? Iran, Anatolia, Syria, Central Asia, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Bosnia etc etc

Before 1947 it was British Empire lest you forgot. So no idea what you mean by "never".

jMbebSj.png
No
 
.
Indian muslims are even more native then brahmins. Its hard to find any traces of foreign ancestry among Indian muslims who claim it let alone all.
Look up those DNA test result videos by Pakistanis on YT. Most of em have 70% South Asian DNA and the rest from some middle eastern/central asian country. Again, it depends on where one is coming from for instance Pakistani punjabis are very different from your Sindhi population since most of Karachites are either from India's Gujarat or UP during the partition
 
.
I bet you folks didn't know that towards the end of his life his family were actually begging him not to convert to Islam, he was quite taken with the Muslims of various nations.

He is indelibly associated with the fight to preserve Britain and its Empire from Nazi invasion and his subsequent denouncement of Soviet totalitarianism’s Iron Curtain.

In the public eye, Sir Winston Churchill’s long political career earned him a place among the greatest of Britons.

But what may come as a surprise is that he was a strong admirer of Islam and the culture of the Orient — such was his regard for the Muslim faith that relatives feared he might convert.

The revelation comes with the discovery of a letter to Churchill from his future sister-in-law, Lady Gwendoline Bertie, written in August 1907, in which she urges him to rein in his enthusiasm.


In the letter, discovered by Warren Dockter, a history research fellow at Cambridge University, she pleads: “Please don’t become converted to Islam; I have noticed in your disposition a tendency to orientalise [fascination with the Orient and Islam], Pasha-like tendencies, I really have.”


Lady Gwendoline, who married Churchill’s brother Jack, adds: “If you come into contact with Islam your conversion might be effected with greater ease than you might have supposed, call of the blood, don’t you know what I mean, do fight against it.”

In a letter to Lady Lytton in the same year Churchill wrote: “You will think me a pasha [rank of distinction in the Ottoman Empire]. I wish I were.”

Churchill’s fascination led him and his close friend Wilfrid S. Blunt, the poet and radical supporter of Muslim causes, to dressing in Arab clothes in private while in each other’s company. Dr Dockter said of the letter from Lady Gwendoline: “Churchill had fought in Sudan and on the North West frontier of India so had much experience on being in 'Islamic areas’.

“But during this period Churchill was in the Liberal phase of his career, having switched to the Liberals in 1904.

“He often came to loggerheads on imperial policies with hard-line imperialists such as Frederick Lugard, the High Commissioner of Northern Nigeria. Churchill was opposed to Lugard’s punitive expeditions against Islamic tribes in northern Nigeria.”

churchill-letter-i_3149300c.jpg
In a letter to Lady Lytton in the same year Churchill wrote: “You will think me a pasha [rank of distinction in the Ottoman Empire]. I wish I were.” The Sir Winston Churchill Archive Trust

The letter was discovered by Dr Dockter while researching his forthcoming book, Winston Churchill and the Islamic World: Orientalism, Empire and Diplomacy in the Middle East.

He points out that Lady Gwendoline’s concerns may not have been so wide of the mark. Not only did Churchill appear to regard Islam and Christianity as equals – a surprisingly progressive notion for the time – but he also admired the military prowess and history of expansion of the Ottoman Empire.


In October 1940, as Britain faced its darkest hour against Nazi Germany, Churchill approved plans to build a mosque in central London and set aside £100,000 for the project. He continued to back the building of what became the London Central Mosque in Regent’s Park – which he hoped would win support for Britain in the Muslim world at a crucial moment – even in the face of public criticism.

In December 1941, he told the House of Commons: “Many of our friends in Muslim countries all over the East have already expressed great appreciation of this gift.”

Churchill’s attitude may appear hypocritical, given his forthright defence of the British Empire – which at its height ruled over millions of Muslims across India, Egypt and the Middle East.

In his book The River War (1899) – his account of the frontier wars of India and Sudan – he was scathing of the fundamentalist, ultra conservative Mahdiyya form of Islam adopted by the Dervish population of North Africa.

He states: “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries ... Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce ... The influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.”

Lady_Gwendeline_Sp_3149305c.jpg
Lady Gwendeline Spencer Churchill (National Portrait Gallery London)

But Dr Dockter says a closer examination of Churchill’s attitude to the wider Muslim world reveals it to be “in stark contrast to the purely imperialistic and orientalist perspective of many of his contemporaries”.

In his book, he states: “His views of Islamic people and culture were an often paradoxical and complex combination of imperialist perceptions composed of typical orientalist ideals fused with the respect, understanding and magnanimity he had gained from his experiences in his early military career, creating a perspective that was uniquely Churchillian.”

The revelation that Churchill had a close affinity for Muslim culture comes at a time when tensions between the three great monotheistic faiths, Christianity, Judaism and Islam are greater than they have been for centuries.

Ironically, many of the fault lines between Islam and the West have their roots in the world Churchill helped shape after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the redrawing of the Middle East at the end of the First World War.

The settlements between the region’s colonial powers, brokered by Churchill, with T E Lawrence – “Lawrence of Arabia” – as an adviser, gave birth, in Dr Dockter’s words, to “the Middle East we know, warts and all”.

winston-churchill-_3149307c.jpg
Sir Winston Churchill in Bangalore, India in 1897

Dr Dockter, who assisted Boris Johnson on his book The Churchill Factor, said: “Not many people are aware that Churchill and T E Lawrence were friends or that they worked together to solve the riddles of the Middle Eastern settlements. Understanding these settlements is paramount to understanding the legacy of Britain in the Middle East.”

Of course, Churchill did not convert to Islam, and Dr Dockter concludes that his fascination was “largely predicated on Victorian notions, which heavily romanticised the nomadic lifestyle and honour culture of the Bedouin tribes”.

Such was his limited understanding of Islam that as colonial secretary during the early 1920s he had to ask what the difference was between Shia and Sunni Muslims, the two major groupings whose long-standing animosity is currently playing out in Syria and Iraq.

As Dr Dockter points out, at least he had the good sense to ask the question in the first place, regarding an issue which bedevils the West’s involvement in the region to this day.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/re...-family-feared-he-might-convert-to-Islam.html
Great stuff Waz. I honrestly did not know this.

What "no".

Throughout history, most of the great empires extended and stopped to where the current Pakistan is
Indus Valley [coterminous Pakistan] tended to be included in these great empires from the west. They tended to avoid the Ganga plains [coterminous India]. Alexander the Macedonian is a good example. Most of Pakistan was part of the Acheamenid Persian Empire. The Bistun records show that Persian Satrapies in Indus Region [Pakistan] like Gandhara [modern Khyber Pakhtunkwa] and Hendosh [modern Sindh] gave significant royalties to the Persian crown.

Greek Empire of Alexander the Great.

Alexander+the+Great%2527s+Journey.png
 
.
Look up those DNA test result videos by Pakistanis on YT. Most of em have 70% South Asian DNA and the rest from some middle eastern/central asian country. Again, it depends on where one is coming from for instance Pakistani punjabis are very different from your Sindhi population since most of Karachites are either from India's Gujarat or UP during the partition

Well I'm not talking about general Pakistanis. Pakistan is on cross road of central and south asia since thousands of years. But Indian muslims are more native then brahmins. If you deny this then you are one stupid sanghi.
 
.
Sindhi population since most of Karachites are either from India's Gujarat or UP during the partition
You do know Karachi is not all Sindh. The Indian Mohajirs are a minority even in Sindh and only in urban Karachi achieve a 60% domination. All told they make 6% of Pakistan's population. About same as ethnic minorities in UK.
 
.
You know the Indus valley and the region to it's east has always been much more developed than that of the middle east or Central Asian region which has been significantly harder to impose forced conversion on a larger extent coupled with relatively higher populations. Throughout history, most of the great empires extended and stopped to where the current Pakistan is
persian_empire.jpg

Persian Empire
Alexander-Empire_323bc.jpg

Alexander's empire
Umayyad750ADloc.png

Umayyad Caliphate

Those are old empires, the latest is umayyad in early 700s. It was not a peace of cake but latwr was taken by muslims till bangal and burma. There was ample time for all those empires to forcefully convert hindus. Islam itself prohibits forceful conversion and deems it a sin. The whole purpose of conversion is beaten if its forceful. Read about sufis who played a big role, and how their message was welcomed. Read how lower caste hindus found Islam more attractive. Those thousands of invading armies mostly settled with families and populated areas. Punjab and sindh mostly converted because of sufis, Pashtuns and baloch are older muslims and descendants of those invading warriors.
 
.
Indians talk about mass rape but south asian muslims who claim foreign ancestry usually don't show any traces of it in DNA let alone others. But you know who were successful in mass rapes of Indians? The indo-aryans. Even deep in south India among isolated tribals you will find traces of them. :lol: I mean it make sense for brahmins to have it since they claim it but others? It doesn't.

This may explain their obsession with rape in general. @Zapper himself is product of that rape.

@waz time to ban this Indian troll.
 
.
Well I'm not talking about general Pakistanis. Pakistan is on cross road of central and south asia since thousands of years. But Indian muslims are more native then brahmins. If you deny this then you are one stupid sanghi.
I am not denying that but it depends on where exactly they're coming from. But yes, Indian muslims are relatively more native than Pakistanis in general
 
. .

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom