Why China Has the Right to 'Build Sovereignty' in the South China Sea

[Huan]

If US wanted to get involved into China. They are millions of way to do it. One way is to fly provoking surveilance plane very near China edge as what happen in 2001. And u are naive to believe China is the cause of all this recent tension? US is the instigator asking Philippine to start reclaim their islet as far as 10years ago and US is also the one asking Philippine to drive out Chinese fisherman from Scarborough shoal area. You are suggesting China shall just sit there and allow pinoy to start all provocation? Maybe when Pinoy reaches hainan water. You shall suggest brilliantly China shall keep a low profile? See how u China basher twisted facts.

So far, the Philippines is the main proxy for the US right? Or is it Japan and Vietnam also? Which is the most active proxy?

 

[Carlosa]

America sanctioned Russia, because Russia itself cannot sustain a US assault on the economic front. Even without this, it could be human rights, it could be middle east, it could be any numbers of things that America can use to sanction Russia..

No, human rights and many other little things can't do it, it has to be a very serious reason to do what western countries are doing to Russia and to be backed by the whole west. It has to be a Ukraine, or a SCS.

 

[Genesis]

Right there we have a fundamental difference; I think its very important how other countries other than US act and talk and how China is perceived in the international arena. US has many allies, China has none. That makes a big difference and it has made a big difference in the last world wars.

We are in the age of Super Powers, not great powers. Germany, Italy and Japan against UK, US(at the time), France, and Russia, were roughly equal in strength.

Today, one US can take on the world in a direct confrontation, and win. Neither of those powers can or close. For China to win against the US, we need to do something similar. That essentially eliminated even Japan to the realm of minor power status of the last world war, like Norway or Denmark.

Being in the Asia Pacific, the amount of US power, US can call upon is limited, relatively. If China can get close enough to that power, it hardly matters what the likes of Japan does.

Consider the entire current Chinese strength to US strength in the area, we are about equal, unless they start putting more assets there. Now consider if 70% of ALL US forces are in the theatre, that means 8 carriers, and 18 more LHD and LPD and more DDGs, Nuke Subs, 140 something F-22s, two thousand more other 4+ gen fighters to go with 400 thousand ground troops and marines.

Would Japan. Vietnam, Philippines switching to our side make the difference for us?

If we are looking at current projections, by 2035, that's roughly what we will have, short on carriers, more on other war making assets.

Obama is one hell of a wimp when compared to the republicans, he restrained Hillary Clinton and the neocons, otherwise you would it have lost SCS already.

Lose SCS? Like how exactly would you consider lose? Bombing our islands? Sanctioning us? Attacking Chinese mainland? Repeat flybys on top of our islands? Sink our ships? Make our neighbours go nuclear? Put more assets in those nations?

How would we lose SCS, exactly? Keep in mind if it's the last few points, I already made what I think of allies in this super power conflict.

SCS is the opportunity for confrontation, the other issues don't provide the opportunity, that's the key difference. China provided the opportunity in a silver platter.

Yes it does provide opportunities, it provided US to set up TPP, trade wars, anti dumping regulations, keeping our currency out of reserve currency, stopping others from joining our bank.

Now you can argue it's effectiveness, but you can't argue, those are far more serious moves than some fly by around our islands.

Had we not succeeded in AIIB, our credibility would be severely harmed, had we not developed a large domestic market, skilled workforce, complete supply chain and effective as well as comprehensive infrastructure. We be toast.

Had we not been trading currencies with other countries, conduct as much trade as we did, sign as many treaties as we have, our currency would not be as widely used today nor would it be in the discussion.

All these have far more serious consequences than not having the SCS.

Again, all these have nothing to do with Vietnam, nor SCS, but they are key interests and a failure to win here would severely damage Chinese economy and prestige. The SCS is also important to us, it is a key interest, and I will further expand on it in the next part.

Win what? Something that you already virtually had, but now you risk losing it, that's not a big risk for you? I didn't see anybody calling China weak, that's your way of seeing things, which is the reason why you confront USA, because you perceive it to be weak. That can be your undoing. Just ask Japan.

The US was flying regular patrols right up to our 12 mile continental shelf, and the US was sending ships left right and center near our coast, the Japanese and Korea ADIZ was right up to our coast, even going into our continental EEZ which is not in dispute.

What had jack.

You don't see anyone calling China weak? 10 papers were released by America think tanks, military, and government that would disagree. The only thing putting doubt in people's mind is that China is standing up for our interests. Had we had the same response as Russia, well, even Japan joined the sanctions. I doubt anyone would line up for our AIIB.

No, human rights and many other little things can't do it, it has to be a very serious reason to do what western countries are doing to Russia and to be backed by the whole west. It has to be a Ukraine, or a SCS.

Again 1989, I specifically mentioned 89, the US was thinking of serious sanctions, economic ones after 89, but went another coarse instead. What would have happened if they didn't do that?

The threat of sanctions is there if you leave yourself vulnerable.




Last point if you don't mind me asking, how far would you have China retreat back? Completely give all islands that the Philippines and Vietnam claim even those outside of their Continental EEZ?

Completely back away from SCS, with only EEZ extending as far as Hainan? Or even less since if we did give a few back to Vietnam, it would cut our Hainan EEZ by quite a bit.

Just like the vast majority of SCS belong to the lesser nations who btw have less claim as we do since they didn't exist in 47 and the islands are well outside of their EEZ.

You know this map, see if I am lying.

 

[Carlosa]

We are in the age of Super Powers, not great powers. Germany, Italy and Japan against UK, US(at the time), France, and Russia, were roughly equal in strength.

Today, one US can take on the world in a direct confrontation, and win. Neither of those powers can or close. For China to win against the US, we need to do something similar. That essentially eliminated even Japan to the realm of minor power status of the last world war, like Norway or Denmark.

Being in the Asia Pacific, the amount of US power, US can call upon is limited, relatively. If China can get close enough to that power, it hardly matters what the likes of Japan does.

Consider the entire current Chinese strength to US strength in the area, we are about equal, unless they start putting more assets there. Now consider if 70% of ALL US forces are in the theatre, that means 8 carriers, and 18 more LHD and LPD and more DDGs, Nuke Subs, 140 something F-22s, two thousand more other 4+ gen fighters to go with 400 thousand ground troops and marines.

Would Japan. Vietnam, Philippines switching to our side make the difference for us?.

Right now Japan makes a huge difference, their navy is very powerful and their bases are key.
PH provides bases right next to the islands, very important. Allies make a difference.

US can mobilize much more power into that area and overwhelm the chinese military. Bean counting doesn't show the full picture, they have clear superiority in military tech and plenty of warfare experience, something that china doesn't have. Add Japan to the mix and the difference is only more clear. Right now the Japanese navy is considered by many to be superior to the chinese navy.

 

[Genesis]

Right now Japan makes a huge difference, their navy is very powerful and their bases are key.
PH provides bases right next to the islands, very important. Allies make a difference.

US can mobilize much more power into that area and overwhelm the chinese military. Bean counting doesn't show the full picture, they have clear superiority in military tech and plenty of warfare experience, something that china doesn't have. Add Japan to the mix and the difference is only more clear. Right now the Japanese navy is considered by many to be superior to the chinese navy.

not talking about right now.

Being in the Asia Pacific, the amount of US power, US can call upon is limited, relatively. If China can get close enough to that power, it hardly matters what the likes of Japan does.

Consider the entire current Chinese strength to US strength in the area, we are about equal, unless they start putting more assets there. Now consider if 70% of ALL US forces are in the theatre, that means 8 carriers, and 18 more LHD and LPD and more DDGs, Nuke Subs, 140 something F-22s, two thousand more other 4+ gen fighters to go with 400 thousand ground troops and marines.

Would Japan. Vietnam, Philippines switching to our side make the difference for us if this is to happen?

Especially this last sentence, while considering the strength we will be adding over the next 2 decades.

 

[Carlosa]

Lose SCS? Like how exactly would you consider lose? Bombing our islands? Sanctioning us? Attacking Chinese mainland? Repeat flybys on top of our islands? Sink our ships? Make our neighbours go nuclear? Put more assets in those nations?

How would we lose SCS, exactly? Keep in mind if it's the last few points, I already made what I think of allies in this super power conflict..

Oh please, if an actual confrontation starts now in SCS, you'll lose it in no time. if US send 3 carrier groups and a couple of marine carrier groups, you'll be out of SCS in no time. Actually, just to totally destroy the islands, a few B-1 / B-2 bombers will do in a couple of hours.

not talking about right now.

I'm talking now or in the next 2-3 years, do you think the neocons are going to wait 15 years?

 

[Huan]

Right now the Japanese navy is considered by many to be superior to the chinese navy.

What??!!! Really?!

 

[Carlosa]

Last point if you don't mind me asking, how far would you have China retreat back? Completely give all islands that the Philippines and Vietnam claim even those outside of their Continental EEZ?

Completely back away from SCS, with only EEZ extending as far as Hainan? Or even less since if we did give a few back to Vietnam, it would cut our Hainan EEZ by quite a bit.

Just like the vast majority of SCS belong to the lesser nations who btw have less claim as we do since they didn't exist in 47 and the islands are well outside of their EEZ.

You know this map, see if I am lying.

China didn't need to retreat from anything, it just needed to stay quiet, there was nothing to lose and anyway, if you start with incredibly exagerated claims that nobody can accept such as the 9 dash line, then you only have yourself to blame.

What??!!! Really?!

Yes, really, ask the people that know something. What you said the other day about the Japanese AWACS plane already showed me that you don't have a clue about military things.

 

[Huan]

China didn't need to retreat from anything, it just needed to stay quiet, there was nothing to lose and anyway, if you start with incredibly exagerated claims that nobody can accept such as the 9 dash line, then you only have yourself to blame.



Yes, really, ask the people that know something. What you said the other day about the Japanese AWACS plane already showed me that you don't have a clue about military things.

@Carlosa , I am not interested in your past insults. Please drop it alright? Right now, why don't you show me with graphic charts of how the Japanese Navy today is more powerful than the growing PLA Navy?

 

[Carlosa]

Again 1989, I specifically mentioned 89, the US was thinking of serious sanctions, economic ones after 89, but went another coarse instead. What would have happened if they didn't do that?.

What saved China up until now, what made the American conservatives restrain themselves is the fact that Western business interests were making good profit from china and china had not shown a clear intent to challenge US until Xe came along. The equation has changed now. The challenge is clear and the route to confrontation is difficult to avoid. If you know anything about what's going on in USA you would know that in the last 2 weeks all the military and geopolitical think tanks have gone into full anti china mode, that's how it starts, have to prepare public opinion first.

When you said that Obama is not a wimp, you showed me that you really don't understand US politics.

 

[Genesis]

Oh please, if an actual confrontation starts now in SCS, you'll lose it in no time. if US send 3 carrier groups and a couple of marine carrier groups, you'll be out of SCS in no time. Actually, just to totally destroy the islands, a few B-1 / B-2 bombers will do in a couple of hours.

The republicans will do this? We may not be that strong, but we are not defenceless, either way, I doubt this can happen. This seems more fantasy than reality.

Does the Americans have the capability to do this? Yes, would they? No. Ask any American on here, and you yourself did say you were an "american."

BTW, do you know how a multi-story is built? Building it does more damage than a bomb would, far bigger.

I'm talking now or in the next 2-3 years, do you think the neocons are going to wait 15 years?

We'll see, though declaring war on a major power, it's difficult to say the least. The Americans just got back from Iraq remember.

I haven't seen any talk of US carrier groups start firing off shots, even the Mccain isn't suggesting that, he said add cost not all out war.

China didn't need to retreat from anything, it just needed to stay quiet, there was nothing to lose and anyway, if you start with incredibly exagerated claims that nobody can accept such as the 9 dash line, then you only have yourself to blame.

The nine dash line is not the final Chinese claim, just an ambiguous claim. Reclaiming, you must admit, you guys all have islands with ports and landing strips before we did, if we didn't do this, we be left far behind, and before 2013 we didn't do this, yet the narrative wasn't in our favor, because your guys did this.

There was also the points I made before with regards to the pre-conflict status quo.

 

[Carlosa]

@Carlosa , I am not interested in your past insults. Please drop it alright? Right now, why don't you show me with graphic charts of how the Japanese Navy today is more powerful than the growing PLA Navy?

Kid, I don't have time for you, we are debating between adults here (and these are business hours here in china and i have business to do, ok?). Do your homework first about military things. I've already seem where you are at and that's enough for me. Don't meant to insult you, really, but you are far from Genesis, etc, do your home work first.

 

[Huan]

Kid, I don't have time for you, we are debating between adults here (and these are business hours here in china and i have business to do, ok?). Do your homework first about military things. I've already seem where you are at and that's enough for me. Don't meant to insult you, really, but you are far from Genesis, etc, do your home work first.

@Carlosa ,the fact that this is your intellectual response proves that you CANNOT back up your claim about the Japanese Navy. You waste my time. You didn't answer the question at all, but verbally attack me instead.

 

[HRM YANG]

You don't get it, the point is not how much power these regional countries add to US, the point is that china's actions created the environment for USA to get involved.



If you don't seriously see anybody asking USA to intervene then I suggest new eyeglasses.

Viet clever dumb as hole think he is a PhD
You know what an American in this forum said something looks like wise and fair and justice: It's not US challenging China but China confronting the presence of Consistent presence of USA, SCS has always been the USC( US sea), their frigates and destroyers always cruise happily in BEIBu gulf and scoured north Vietnam by dumping Tom hawks to you guys!
America is an interest oriented country. You are right American hope to push China into submission on SCS and they have chips to let your government "sell" gas to them, they want gas, now Yankees' electricity generation recourses are on transition from coal to gas, they want these so they poses conficts, by the way let those arm dealers be rich by selling you patrol ships.
Not we make excuses to let them come lad, they always be here and they have said I will ever leave, I hope personally that Vietnam and China are all success socialism countries so we should work together like one country, I personally appreciate Vietnam food.
I really feel confused why we have so big enmity to each other, we have so many resemblances...... maybe interests alike

 

[Carlosa]

The republicans will do this? We may not be that strong, but we are not defenceless, either way, I doubt this can happen. This seems more fantasy than reality.

Does the Americans have the capability to do this? Yes, would they? No. Ask any American on here, and you yourself did say you were an "american.".

Yes, go ahead and ask the americans in the forum, they will tell you how easy it is to take out those islands and by the way, a few american commanders already said that too.

@Carlosa ,the fact that this is your intellectual response proves that you CANNOT back up your claim about the Japanese Navy. You waste my time. You didn't answer the question at all, but verbally attack me instead.

I really don't have time, some people have work to do, you know? Ask @Nihonjin1051

I'm on a business trip on china and lunch break is almost over, I can continue at night.