Kommandant Omi
MEMBER
New Recruit
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2019
- Messages
- 4
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
Originally posted on Quora here. This is a question that comes up often by Indians, so I thought I might share my explanation with the audiences on this forum as well. Here goes...
THE OFT-REPEATED QUESTION:
This is a question which usually comes from our not so friendly neighbors more often than not, at various forums, so I thought maybe I should really take some time out to shed light on facts. What I find unfortunate is that most Indians are not aware of this particular conundrum yet pass their opinions on it as if they are experts in the field. Ok, so to the million-dollar question now...If the JF-17 is so awesome, why doesn't China use it? There are a few reasons. Allow me to enlighten you.
A HISTORICAL CONTEXT:
Let’s go back in time to the early 1990s. Soon after the Afghan war had ended, the US placed sanctions / embargoes (Pressler Amendment) on the purchase of F-16s, which was the most advanced system in use by PAF and the most advanced fighter in the region at the time, similar to how the Rafale will now be for India. Facing this dire situation, the country had to look for alternatives, and there weren’t many. The Gripens from Saab weren’t available because they used American engines, and Pakistan was under sanctions. The Panavia tornado was rejected. The Mirage 2000′s didn’t make the cut for various reasons. The Russians would never have sold anything to Pakistan since the defeat in the war at the hands of ISI and CIA backed mujaheddin was still fresh in their minds. And the Chinese jets at the time were nowhere near on par with the F-16s in terms of competency, performance, or whatever you’d like to call it. During this time, the primary fighter in the arsenal of PAF was the F-7P Airguard, a derivative of the Mig-21 developed by China. The rest of the fleet was comprised of Chinese A-5s, and French Mirage IIIs and Vs, which were upgraded by Pakistan through the ROSE Project. Pakistan then sought to jointly developed a new fighter along with China and Northrop Grumman I believe, but the project fell through when the latter left mid-way. This period starting from the early 90s to the 2000s is known as the lost decade for the PAF.
Owing to this, the PAF decided that they cannot rely on the USA or any other western country for their critical defense requirements and must therefore become self-reliant. It was during this time that the idea for the JF-17 was born, from the need for a basic workhorse fighter that would form the backbone of the Pakistani air force which could be upgraded as more advanced technologies became available over time and replace the ageing fleets of F-7Ps and A-5s, and which could complement the Mirages and the F-16s in possession.
And so the primary reason why China does not use the plane is because it was solely developed with the help of China to fulfill the critical requirement of PAF and not of PLAAF, while also endowing Pakistan with the capability to put in place the infrastructure to be able to fully develop the fighter on its own, and gain valuable technical expertise in the process. However, there are also other reasons why China does not use this fighter.
Before we move ahead though, consider these facts.
1. The USA has been forcing all its NATO partners to buy the F-35, and all of them have been reluctant to do so. Does that mean the F-35 sucks?
2. India’s primary fighter fleet is comprised of SU-30s upgraded to the latest standards, but Israel, which is considered to be a good air force, doesn’t use them. Does that mean the SU-30s suck?
3. Or how about China, which makes a lot of Russian planes under license including SU-27 and 30 variants, as well as their own J-10s which are considered Chinese F-16s, but Pakistan didn’t buy any of those, so does that mean all these jets suck too?
4. India has been offered the most advanced version of the F-16 (the F-21), the F-18 Hornets, Saab Gripens, the SU-35s, yet India settled for the Rafale. Kickbacks and scandals aside, does it mean all these jets, proven in combat, and all very capable, suck because India does not use them?
The answer is no.
Every aircraft serves a particular purpose in an air force, which suits their doctrines and complements the overall fleet and systems in place. I’ll explain.
THE HEAVY-WEIGHTS:
The SU-27s, 30s, & 35s are all Heavy Fighters. Heavy fighters by nature, and as their name suggests, are large fighter aircraft that fulfill one or more specific roles. These jets have a longer range due to their ability to carry more fuel, powerful radars, extreme agility and increased power owing to their twin engines, strong jamming and electronics equipment, and the ability to carry heavier payloads due to their size.
For instance, the Su-30 might be able to carry 10-12 BVR AA missiles while a JF-17 might only be able to carry 4 at a time. It is a well-known fact that in WVR fight between a heavy fighter and 1-2 light fighters, the heavy fighter will win more than 95% of the time. Now, Pakistan could have bought the Chinese variants of these, since India has more than 240 SU-30s, but it won’t. Why? Because the jet does not fit into the PAF ecosystem or fulfill any major requirements in its doctrine, but it does India’s. How? China is a regional power, and India is getting there. Both these countries have huge landmasses. Both these countries have huge coastal areas, and ever-growing naval force. The Chinese Navy dominates the South China Sea. The Indian Navy dominates the Bay of Bengal and the Arabian Sea. The same applies to the USA and Russia as well, which are global powers and employ heavy fighters.
Can you connect the dots now and understand why these counties need these planes, but a country like Pakistan doesn’t? Add to that the huge maintenance costs that come with these type of jets, which is making even India reconsider manufacturing any more SU-30s beyond 272, since they believe that number would be more than sufficient for its requirements and the rest would be fulfilled by it’s fleet of Mig-29s, Mirage 2000s, Rafales, and maybe / maybe not Tejas. (I believe its only ego which is stopping India from scrapping this jet altogether).
The venerable Su-30
THE MEDIUM MULTI ROLE FIGHTERS:
On the other hand, the Rafale and the J-10 are MMRCA (Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft). Pretty much all that has been described above is applicable to these jets as well, and they strike a balance between heavy and light fighters. MMRCA platforms are very versatile in that they can perform an extensive list of missions and perform multiple roles capably. Now although I am veering from the topic, I would just like to ask this…does any Indian believe the induction of the Rafale would immediately be a game changer in the region? I hardly think so.
The much vaunted game changer…Rafale
SINGLE ENGINE LCA’S - JF—17s IN THE PAF:
Finally, we now come to the F-16 and JF-17, both capable Light Combat Aircraft employed by PAF. So why does PAF always go for single engine conventionally designed multi role jets, first with the F-16 and now with the JF-17?
First, Pakistan does not have strategic depth like India. For its fighters to intercept Indian jets heading to Pakistan, the distance between the forward air bases and the border isn’t a lot. Then again, that is exactly why these bases are made in the first place, but the regular bases are not that far off either. These jets can simply attach 1-2 external fuel tanks and be on their merry way and drop these close to the border to gain throttle and maneuverability before engaging the enemy. However, the majority of the times this situation does not arise, and I will explain why later. Or, they could loiter in the air and provide Combat Air Patrol and go for aerial refueling when low on fuel from the aerial tankers PAF currently has in its possession.
Second, there are factors I have already mentioned such as the time, effort and money that are required with twin engine planes. In the best-case scenarios, maybe 60% of the fleet is available at any given time, provided the ground staff and engineers are of a very high caliber. Single engine fighters are simply not as demanding and are more cost effective.
J-10, the Chinese F-16 variant
Third, The JF-17 Block 2 also comes at around half the cost of an F-16, meaning it is easier to purchase a considerable amount of these jets. Pakistan currently has 100, and will probably employ 25 Jf-17Bs, which is the two seater variant, and around 50 Jf-17 Block 3s, which are the most advanced version of this particular jet and includes an air-cooled AESA Radar, IRST, improved targeting pods, redesigned air intakes for increased thrust and perhaps redesigned wings as well for carrying a heavier pay load, High Bore Off Sight Helmet Cueing with more agile short range missiles on par with the Aim-9X, the ability to carry PL-12 Advanced BVR missile, among others. At this stage, the JF-17 will have hit its peak potential, and turned into a highly capable fighter with the ability to take on 4.5++ Gen fighters with support from relevant AEW&C and AWACS platforms, and other fighters all connected via the Data Link 16 encrypted communication platform. Speculations are that the PAF might go for 250 JF-17s, and then turn towards employing a 5th Gen Fighter, since India will start employing the Su-57 or the F-35 by 2025, when these particular jets will be at their optimal potential.
The JF-17B and JF-17 single seater variants
In modern air battles, fighter aircraft do not operate on their own. Every fighter that takes to the air is connected with all aerial and ground assets employed by the air force. This includes other fighters, SAM emplacements, ground Radars, AWACS, refuelers, AEW&C, etc., essentially in a highly networked space. Engagements are almost always beyond visual range. The primary purpose of the Pakistani air force is to defend against enemy air assets, provision of close air support for ground forces, and carrying out strikes near the borders or forward bases with stand-off munitions. If Pakistan wanted to strike deep within India, it would have needed Heavy jets, but even then, that would have meant putting them in danger owing to India’s depth. To fulfill this purpose, we have various short- and long-range missiles which serve the purpose well and do not put pilots into unnecessary risk. There is also another point to be considered here. Why doesn’t Pakistan buy 500 jets to gain parity with India. Don’t say we don’t have the money because that is not an issue. The real reason is that for a country like Pakistan, after a particular phase in the war, provided it has lost a large number of jets, the nuclear threshold will have been lowered and MAD would come into effect. Take the February aerial skirmishes into context. The scale was very limited. In an all-out war, the armies won’t wait for the enemy’s planes to take off. As soon as war is declared, all airfields will be possibly be saturated with cruise missile attacks to negate the air power of the adversary. For instance, consider this, before the February skirmish, the Srinagar air force base housed Mig-21s, with a capacity of around 2 squadrons, or 40 planes, in hardened bunkers. If you look at the satellite imagery, the bunkers have been prepared especially for such a scenario. After February however, the base now has Su-30s deployed, and SAM batteries have been activated. First thing I’d do is launch 200 cruise missiles and take out that place, since its in close proximity to the capital and GHQ.
Probably the most widely used legacy fighter…Mig-21
OPERATION SWIFT RETORT - THE ROLE OF JF-17s:
Now I will explain further why the Block 2 jets are more than capable in the context of the 27th Feb PAF downing of the Mig-21. For the Indian readers, please have an open mind. Pakistan carried out airstrikes in Indian Occupied Kashmir at 3 different points, bombing open grounds near a Battalion HQ, Ammo Depot, and another army installation. Now, another misconception most Indians come up with is that the Pakistani warplanes missed their targets and were chased away by the Indian planes. This is nothing but a lack of knowledge of military tactics on their part. See, the only damaged caused by the Indian strikes were some trees. This was admitted later by Sushma Swaraj herself at an International forum where she said no casualties took place, putting to rest false Indian media propaganda claims of killing 300 targets.
Anyhow, any sane person would have to consider this…”The enemy launched their weapons which felled some trees in my country. Good thing no Pakistani died, otherwise we’d have to bomb some Indians. But their audacity of launching such a strike needs to be answered in a befitting manner so that they they think twice of making such a move in future. So, lets bomb areas close to their army installations which would send a strong message that we are capable enough to take you on at the time and place of our choosing.”
On the morning of 27th Feb, this message was delivered. As the PAF planes were heading back, they were given chase by the Indian Aggressors. This is where the reserve element, comprised of the JF-17s came into play. Aided by better radar from the AWACS, their long range BVR missiles locked onto the incoming SU-30s before they could lock on, and the missiles were fired. This was something that was attested to by many elements of the Indian military experts as well, who agreed that the Indian planes were outgunned. Once that happened, the SU pilots most definitely started getting warning of incoming missiles and initiated evasive maneuvers.
Whether one was hit or not does not matter is another story. The JF-17 effectively and efficiently made use of its strengths to take the enemy aggressors out of the battlespace. Remember how I said earlier that a single SU-30 is capable of taking out more than 1 light fighter in a WVR fight? I will quote an American flight instructor: “In the modern day, if you find yourself in a WVR situation in the first place, something has really gone wrong.”
Kinda like that
With the Su-30s gone, the Mig-21 of Abhinandan still gave chase, and owing to the old equipment, was not able to determine when he crossed into Pakistani airspace. Also, the extreme levels of jamming from the AEW&C platforms ensured that he could not communicate with his command & control stations. He was promptly put down. The JF-17 had done its job.
Saab Erieye AEW&C
CONCLUDING REMARKS:
To summarize all this. I would say that the employment of any platform by an air force is done after considerable study and research, and positive decisions are taken on those assets which best suit the requirements of that particular force. You might have heard of the famous saying:
One man’s meat is another man’s poison.
The JF-17 of the Black Panthers squadron
All images are the property of their respective owners.
THE OFT-REPEATED QUESTION:
This is a question which usually comes from our not so friendly neighbors more often than not, at various forums, so I thought maybe I should really take some time out to shed light on facts. What I find unfortunate is that most Indians are not aware of this particular conundrum yet pass their opinions on it as if they are experts in the field. Ok, so to the million-dollar question now...If the JF-17 is so awesome, why doesn't China use it? There are a few reasons. Allow me to enlighten you.
A HISTORICAL CONTEXT:
Let’s go back in time to the early 1990s. Soon after the Afghan war had ended, the US placed sanctions / embargoes (Pressler Amendment) on the purchase of F-16s, which was the most advanced system in use by PAF and the most advanced fighter in the region at the time, similar to how the Rafale will now be for India. Facing this dire situation, the country had to look for alternatives, and there weren’t many. The Gripens from Saab weren’t available because they used American engines, and Pakistan was under sanctions. The Panavia tornado was rejected. The Mirage 2000′s didn’t make the cut for various reasons. The Russians would never have sold anything to Pakistan since the defeat in the war at the hands of ISI and CIA backed mujaheddin was still fresh in their minds. And the Chinese jets at the time were nowhere near on par with the F-16s in terms of competency, performance, or whatever you’d like to call it. During this time, the primary fighter in the arsenal of PAF was the F-7P Airguard, a derivative of the Mig-21 developed by China. The rest of the fleet was comprised of Chinese A-5s, and French Mirage IIIs and Vs, which were upgraded by Pakistan through the ROSE Project. Pakistan then sought to jointly developed a new fighter along with China and Northrop Grumman I believe, but the project fell through when the latter left mid-way. This period starting from the early 90s to the 2000s is known as the lost decade for the PAF.
Owing to this, the PAF decided that they cannot rely on the USA or any other western country for their critical defense requirements and must therefore become self-reliant. It was during this time that the idea for the JF-17 was born, from the need for a basic workhorse fighter that would form the backbone of the Pakistani air force which could be upgraded as more advanced technologies became available over time and replace the ageing fleets of F-7Ps and A-5s, and which could complement the Mirages and the F-16s in possession.
And so the primary reason why China does not use the plane is because it was solely developed with the help of China to fulfill the critical requirement of PAF and not of PLAAF, while also endowing Pakistan with the capability to put in place the infrastructure to be able to fully develop the fighter on its own, and gain valuable technical expertise in the process. However, there are also other reasons why China does not use this fighter.
Before we move ahead though, consider these facts.
1. The USA has been forcing all its NATO partners to buy the F-35, and all of them have been reluctant to do so. Does that mean the F-35 sucks?
2. India’s primary fighter fleet is comprised of SU-30s upgraded to the latest standards, but Israel, which is considered to be a good air force, doesn’t use them. Does that mean the SU-30s suck?
3. Or how about China, which makes a lot of Russian planes under license including SU-27 and 30 variants, as well as their own J-10s which are considered Chinese F-16s, but Pakistan didn’t buy any of those, so does that mean all these jets suck too?
4. India has been offered the most advanced version of the F-16 (the F-21), the F-18 Hornets, Saab Gripens, the SU-35s, yet India settled for the Rafale. Kickbacks and scandals aside, does it mean all these jets, proven in combat, and all very capable, suck because India does not use them?
The answer is no.
Every aircraft serves a particular purpose in an air force, which suits their doctrines and complements the overall fleet and systems in place. I’ll explain.
THE HEAVY-WEIGHTS:
The SU-27s, 30s, & 35s are all Heavy Fighters. Heavy fighters by nature, and as their name suggests, are large fighter aircraft that fulfill one or more specific roles. These jets have a longer range due to their ability to carry more fuel, powerful radars, extreme agility and increased power owing to their twin engines, strong jamming and electronics equipment, and the ability to carry heavier payloads due to their size.
For instance, the Su-30 might be able to carry 10-12 BVR AA missiles while a JF-17 might only be able to carry 4 at a time. It is a well-known fact that in WVR fight between a heavy fighter and 1-2 light fighters, the heavy fighter will win more than 95% of the time. Now, Pakistan could have bought the Chinese variants of these, since India has more than 240 SU-30s, but it won’t. Why? Because the jet does not fit into the PAF ecosystem or fulfill any major requirements in its doctrine, but it does India’s. How? China is a regional power, and India is getting there. Both these countries have huge landmasses. Both these countries have huge coastal areas, and ever-growing naval force. The Chinese Navy dominates the South China Sea. The Indian Navy dominates the Bay of Bengal and the Arabian Sea. The same applies to the USA and Russia as well, which are global powers and employ heavy fighters.
Can you connect the dots now and understand why these counties need these planes, but a country like Pakistan doesn’t? Add to that the huge maintenance costs that come with these type of jets, which is making even India reconsider manufacturing any more SU-30s beyond 272, since they believe that number would be more than sufficient for its requirements and the rest would be fulfilled by it’s fleet of Mig-29s, Mirage 2000s, Rafales, and maybe / maybe not Tejas. (I believe its only ego which is stopping India from scrapping this jet altogether).
The venerable Su-30
THE MEDIUM MULTI ROLE FIGHTERS:
On the other hand, the Rafale and the J-10 are MMRCA (Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft). Pretty much all that has been described above is applicable to these jets as well, and they strike a balance between heavy and light fighters. MMRCA platforms are very versatile in that they can perform an extensive list of missions and perform multiple roles capably. Now although I am veering from the topic, I would just like to ask this…does any Indian believe the induction of the Rafale would immediately be a game changer in the region? I hardly think so.
The much vaunted game changer…Rafale
SINGLE ENGINE LCA’S - JF—17s IN THE PAF:
Finally, we now come to the F-16 and JF-17, both capable Light Combat Aircraft employed by PAF. So why does PAF always go for single engine conventionally designed multi role jets, first with the F-16 and now with the JF-17?
First, Pakistan does not have strategic depth like India. For its fighters to intercept Indian jets heading to Pakistan, the distance between the forward air bases and the border isn’t a lot. Then again, that is exactly why these bases are made in the first place, but the regular bases are not that far off either. These jets can simply attach 1-2 external fuel tanks and be on their merry way and drop these close to the border to gain throttle and maneuverability before engaging the enemy. However, the majority of the times this situation does not arise, and I will explain why later. Or, they could loiter in the air and provide Combat Air Patrol and go for aerial refueling when low on fuel from the aerial tankers PAF currently has in its possession.
Second, there are factors I have already mentioned such as the time, effort and money that are required with twin engine planes. In the best-case scenarios, maybe 60% of the fleet is available at any given time, provided the ground staff and engineers are of a very high caliber. Single engine fighters are simply not as demanding and are more cost effective.
J-10, the Chinese F-16 variant
Third, The JF-17 Block 2 also comes at around half the cost of an F-16, meaning it is easier to purchase a considerable amount of these jets. Pakistan currently has 100, and will probably employ 25 Jf-17Bs, which is the two seater variant, and around 50 Jf-17 Block 3s, which are the most advanced version of this particular jet and includes an air-cooled AESA Radar, IRST, improved targeting pods, redesigned air intakes for increased thrust and perhaps redesigned wings as well for carrying a heavier pay load, High Bore Off Sight Helmet Cueing with more agile short range missiles on par with the Aim-9X, the ability to carry PL-12 Advanced BVR missile, among others. At this stage, the JF-17 will have hit its peak potential, and turned into a highly capable fighter with the ability to take on 4.5++ Gen fighters with support from relevant AEW&C and AWACS platforms, and other fighters all connected via the Data Link 16 encrypted communication platform. Speculations are that the PAF might go for 250 JF-17s, and then turn towards employing a 5th Gen Fighter, since India will start employing the Su-57 or the F-35 by 2025, when these particular jets will be at their optimal potential.
The JF-17B and JF-17 single seater variants
In modern air battles, fighter aircraft do not operate on their own. Every fighter that takes to the air is connected with all aerial and ground assets employed by the air force. This includes other fighters, SAM emplacements, ground Radars, AWACS, refuelers, AEW&C, etc., essentially in a highly networked space. Engagements are almost always beyond visual range. The primary purpose of the Pakistani air force is to defend against enemy air assets, provision of close air support for ground forces, and carrying out strikes near the borders or forward bases with stand-off munitions. If Pakistan wanted to strike deep within India, it would have needed Heavy jets, but even then, that would have meant putting them in danger owing to India’s depth. To fulfill this purpose, we have various short- and long-range missiles which serve the purpose well and do not put pilots into unnecessary risk. There is also another point to be considered here. Why doesn’t Pakistan buy 500 jets to gain parity with India. Don’t say we don’t have the money because that is not an issue. The real reason is that for a country like Pakistan, after a particular phase in the war, provided it has lost a large number of jets, the nuclear threshold will have been lowered and MAD would come into effect. Take the February aerial skirmishes into context. The scale was very limited. In an all-out war, the armies won’t wait for the enemy’s planes to take off. As soon as war is declared, all airfields will be possibly be saturated with cruise missile attacks to negate the air power of the adversary. For instance, consider this, before the February skirmish, the Srinagar air force base housed Mig-21s, with a capacity of around 2 squadrons, or 40 planes, in hardened bunkers. If you look at the satellite imagery, the bunkers have been prepared especially for such a scenario. After February however, the base now has Su-30s deployed, and SAM batteries have been activated. First thing I’d do is launch 200 cruise missiles and take out that place, since its in close proximity to the capital and GHQ.
Probably the most widely used legacy fighter…Mig-21
OPERATION SWIFT RETORT - THE ROLE OF JF-17s:
Now I will explain further why the Block 2 jets are more than capable in the context of the 27th Feb PAF downing of the Mig-21. For the Indian readers, please have an open mind. Pakistan carried out airstrikes in Indian Occupied Kashmir at 3 different points, bombing open grounds near a Battalion HQ, Ammo Depot, and another army installation. Now, another misconception most Indians come up with is that the Pakistani warplanes missed their targets and were chased away by the Indian planes. This is nothing but a lack of knowledge of military tactics on their part. See, the only damaged caused by the Indian strikes were some trees. This was admitted later by Sushma Swaraj herself at an International forum where she said no casualties took place, putting to rest false Indian media propaganda claims of killing 300 targets.
Anyhow, any sane person would have to consider this…”The enemy launched their weapons which felled some trees in my country. Good thing no Pakistani died, otherwise we’d have to bomb some Indians. But their audacity of launching such a strike needs to be answered in a befitting manner so that they they think twice of making such a move in future. So, lets bomb areas close to their army installations which would send a strong message that we are capable enough to take you on at the time and place of our choosing.”
On the morning of 27th Feb, this message was delivered. As the PAF planes were heading back, they were given chase by the Indian Aggressors. This is where the reserve element, comprised of the JF-17s came into play. Aided by better radar from the AWACS, their long range BVR missiles locked onto the incoming SU-30s before they could lock on, and the missiles were fired. This was something that was attested to by many elements of the Indian military experts as well, who agreed that the Indian planes were outgunned. Once that happened, the SU pilots most definitely started getting warning of incoming missiles and initiated evasive maneuvers.
Whether one was hit or not does not matter is another story. The JF-17 effectively and efficiently made use of its strengths to take the enemy aggressors out of the battlespace. Remember how I said earlier that a single SU-30 is capable of taking out more than 1 light fighter in a WVR fight? I will quote an American flight instructor: “In the modern day, if you find yourself in a WVR situation in the first place, something has really gone wrong.”
Kinda like that
With the Su-30s gone, the Mig-21 of Abhinandan still gave chase, and owing to the old equipment, was not able to determine when he crossed into Pakistani airspace. Also, the extreme levels of jamming from the AEW&C platforms ensured that he could not communicate with his command & control stations. He was promptly put down. The JF-17 had done its job.
Saab Erieye AEW&C
CONCLUDING REMARKS:
To summarize all this. I would say that the employment of any platform by an air force is done after considerable study and research, and positive decisions are taken on those assets which best suit the requirements of that particular force. You might have heard of the famous saying:
One man’s meat is another man’s poison.
The JF-17 of the Black Panthers squadron
All images are the property of their respective owners.
