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Why blame Zia for every ill in Pakistan?

People are stupid. They credit Pakistan's economic boom in mid 2000s to musharaf. Blame Zia for taking the only option that was available (take america's side and fund a mujahideen force). The other option was to sit there and do nothing while the soviets formed a union with india and sandwich pakistan from both sides and most likely take over after taking afghanistan....

But even after knowing the effects of bhutto's nationalization, think of it as a good thing (are these people retarded?) and COMPLETELY forget that it was HE alone who was responsible for the partition of pakistan into two pieces....

Even Imran Khan once in his famous speech in lahore praised bhutto.....what the **** was he thinking ?

Hi, No that was not the only option. A limited engagement could do the job. There was no need to be a hub for jihadis from all around the globe and There was no need to let this kalashankof culture get into the roots of Pakistani society. Stop exaggerating these already exaggerated theories of "soviets sandwitcing pakistan and taking over pakistan bla bla". Afghanis were pushed into iran too, they didn't let them mix up with their population. Sir, What's so witty about getting your hands burnt while putting out the fire in your neigborhood?
 
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If you are going to reply to this, I would ask that you challenge the points I make on their own merit, individually, opinions are no good anymore at this part of the debate.

And random articles with bits and pieces highlighted would not suffice, pick at the points and disprove them or the logic.
Well then we didnt have good enough doctors to find it and do the surgery, eh?

Meaningless this part seems to me. There's no question or ambiguity in what I was hinting at there I hope. To change the perception and way of thinking of a population, makes any easy solution to problems therein, out of the question, unattainable.

In our case, the extremism problem was around well before the Taliban, the sectarian symptoms can be seen in the 70's and especially in the 80's. Now it has permeated into the very deepest crevices of our society and we'll find no success in trying to gloss it over as we've been attempting halfheartedly.

But according to this article he didnt create them, they had started before he took over? The years dont lie!

Times were not perfect before him, and Islam was always part of the Pakistani identity, even the most liberal of Pakistanis cannot deny this. The process of indoctrination was started shortly before him, but how then do you propose to absolve what he did thereafter?

Zia basically used Islamism to save and prop up his dictatorial rule, he effectively used the Afghan crisis to kill two birds with one stone, got the West on his side, and solidified his hold at home by using the military-mullah cocktail he devised for the entire country. He was heavily involved with JI, and used their ideology for his purposes and applied them in his rule.

Zia replaced our founding father's 'Unity, faith and discipline', with 'Iman, taqwa and jihad'. He made his intentions clear from the very start.

Page 3 of this book, quotes his message to the media on the first of September, first year of his tyranny,

"A presidential form of government closest to Islamic ideology with president or ameer elected by the entire nation was best suited for Pakistan. The president will be checked by a legislature and shall be guided by the consensus of opinion “Ijma” in the “majlis-e-mushawarat” the council of advisors consisting of the ulema possessing unimpeachable character. The president will be counterchecked by the prime minister and the prime minister by the National Assembly "

Zia started his war on educated at this time too, the first of it's kind seen in 1979 by changing the classification system of English medium schools, degrees and promoting certain types of deobandi education courses to the level of HE degrees from elsewhere, which is why these sorts of 'qualifications' if you can call them that greatly increased under him.

Later he had us have the Hudood ordinance, blasphemy law, as well as infecting the ranks of the army with Islamism.

http://law2.wlu.edu/deptimages/Law Review/64-4Lau.pdf

There is A LOT I am missing and even more details of which I do not have the knowledge, memory, or patience to trudge through.

But the consequences of this era speak for themselves, because of Zia, we had outbreaks of sectarianism in the 80's.
The rise of lawless groups and extremists, many of SSP, LeJ, SeM we still fight to this day.

The damage he caused by importing Kalashnikov culture, it helped lay waste to our cities, Karachi is a fine example.

His destruction of civilian authority DIRECTLY led to the election of NS, who was in fact working under Zia at one time.
And his work also led to the huge political instability and the lack of ability of the institutions to function properly and cope with challenges.

Under his watch we took in 4 million refugees, and his right wing policies meant we had not the
infrastructure, nor the money, nor even the will to do justice with them and the people of Pakistan. The refugees made ghettos, operated in crime networks, took part in smuggling weapons and narcotics. They were also used for the purposes of waging war back in Afghanistan.

It was under his watch also, that huge quantities of heroin and hashish became regularly consumed in Pakistan, and that the related network of crime thereon infested our cities.

The man was a disaster, through and through. I pray we never meet his kind again.
And again let me point out the changes in the constitution and the changes in the law were placed before him...Time doesnt lie...Historians do!

Sure, and you seem to try and absolve him of all he actually DID do, by diverting the focus to what others also did before him. It is folly!

Also, on constitution, you're missing the point, he violated in the first instance and then again even after amendments. Which brings me on to the point you seem to be weirdly denying. Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq's Islamization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Historians don't lie either in this case, unless you could be so bold to prove them wrong here.
 
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Hi, No that was not the only option. A limited engagement could do the job. There was no need to be a hub for jihadis from all around the globe and There was no need to let this kalashankof culture get into the roots of Pakistani society. Stop exaggerating these already exaggerated theories of "soviets sandwitcing pakistan and taking over pakistan bla bla". Afghanis were pushed into iran too, they didn't let them mix up with their population. Sir, What's so witty about getting your hands burnt while putting out the fire in your neigborhood?

They didn't know that then........

Today we can all argue aesey ho jata ya wesey ho jata kiun key bad main aesey nahin huwa to wesey ho jata blah blah.....

They made the decisions based on info they had at that time. And according to the information they had back then, this seemed like the best option.

When there is all out war, you don't aim to only barely disable the enemy. You prepare better than that to be safe.

You can even argue that pakistan never even needed to be a part of the war, the afghans could have done it on their own with some US help.....But that was at that time a risky option (not doing every possible thing).
 
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They didn't know that then........

Today we can all argue aesey ho jata ya wesey ho jata kiun key bad main aesey nahin huwa to wesey ho jata blah blah.....

They made the decisions based on info they had at that time. And according to the information they had back then, this seemed like the best option.

When there is all out war, you don't aim to only barely disable the enemy. You prepare better than that to be safe.

it hasn't got anything to do with what they knew back then. Fact is Islamization made up the dominant part of Zia's personality. You know what they say 'Excess of everything is bad' Zia didn't understand this simple thing.
 
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The problem is the time period after 65-71 where political stance changed in USA , after which we were mere guinea piggs
 
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But the article CLEARLY shows all these changes you accuse Zia of WERE done b your so called effective leftists leaders!

As for the part in blue...Honestly speaking I am yet to see him as in his era being the cause for the change...EVERYTHING was already in placed before he took over...GIVE the article a read, will ya?
calm down ma'am, I've read the article. yes the legal changes had taken place before Zia, but what really matters is the on ground happenings. kalashnikov culture and emergence of right wingers as major stakeholders in national politics only began during Zia time, and also extreme conservative attitude was adopted by govt only under Zia, where concerts and music bands were treated as terrorists, liberal politicians were locked up in chambers in lahore and beaten with lashes and there was total proliferation of state and religion into personal matters of citizens.
while i agree that there are many things truly stated in the article which zia was not responsible for, i dont think anyone accuses him of those things either (such as setting up the CII, being responsible for creation of Bangladesh etc.) since these were before his time. what he is mainly accused of is eroding Pakistan's social fabric by strictly imposing his on views on everyone, disregarding dissent and opposing opinions and having a fascist and somewhat radical mindset which ultimately lead to many of the social ills present in Pakistan today.
 
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Zia's government period was quite low productively , and there was start of bombings in Karachi which coincided with creation of MQM as stated by my parents

Who stated before MQM / Zia Karachi was a safe , urban dwelling peaceful and modern , yet old

During Zia's time , is when the CORPORATION of the state started to under perform and the trend continued due to bogus hiring locally, hiring was done on non merit , rather family connection and these CORPORATIONS TANKED!!!!

Also , from Military stand point - nothing major was attained from any allies or major purchase during the 80's beyond the odd F16 Planes

Strangely I heard from some chefs *arabs that Zia was present in some operation in Jordan to curb some uprising against the monarch. In his days prior to coming to power. I came back and did a research on it and it was true he was involved against an uprising in Jordan , secret operation

Prior to creation of MQM and arrival of Zia , karachi was quite a safe place

The TV / RADIO / News channels were regulated by IRON fist.

During this time we saw rules introduced in media to make anchors / and women more sharia complaint and various other curbs on the once vibrant Pakistan TV

In short Zia forced the society to become more "sharia complaint" while not developing
the leadership building avenues of society all the items that made our society

"Light hearted" were changed with arrival likes of JI and other goons
 
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The way many Pakistanis's philosophy thinking is really backward.

Yes, we can blame dictator Zia ul Haq, however, we should solve it by now. Don't look back to old years and complaining numerous million times, why not just fix it ourselves today? Let's get everyone together and oath to change our country, nobody can?

If nobody is willing, let Pakistan collapse, people like it rather than improvements or advanced country.
 
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Well Gen zia ( trained in Fort Leavenworth in counter insurgency) was appointed by Bhutto ( a dreaded feudal lord himself). Gen Zia or bhutto both epitomized a power play which has been the most important thing in Pakistan.

However, whenever one criticizes Gen zia, one is overwhelmed by the holy warrior narrative his followers love to state.

During Zia's rule nothing really changed, same feudals, corrupt industrialists and businessmen and bureaucrats thrived. Pakistan lost Siachin, witnessed Ojhri Camp disaster ( no body knows how many died, many say it was over a thousand)

Gen Zia held a needless bogus one sided referendum and dismissed his own handpicked govt. His most famous gift is basically the Sharif dynasty.

People criticize him because he had great power and if in 11 years of rule where someone has bureaucracy, the army, the judges and the west on your side and still you cannot bring change, you are a sad page in history.
 
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When 1 Goon is created he multiplies like Rabbits so if Zia created 100 goons they have multiplied like rabbits as they all have 10 children and now the goon society demands rights and right to bomb anyone who does not agrees with them


Compared to the Zia time I think President Musharaf (ex president) did a great job to soften the image or progressive Military head of state / army

His vision was wonderful
 
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Well Gen zia ( trained in Fort Leavenworth in counter insurgency) was appointed by Bhutto ( a dreaded feudal lord himself). Gen Zia or bhutto both epitomized a power play which has been the most important thing in Pakistan.

However, whenever one criticizes Gen zia, one is overwhelmed by the holy warrior narrative his followers love to state.

During Zia's rule nothing really changed, same feudals, corrupt industrialists and businessmen and bureaucrats thrived. Pakistan lost Siachin, witnessed Ojhri Camp disaster ( no body knows how many died, many say it was over a thousand)

Gen Zia held a needless bogus one sided referendum and dismissed his own handpicked govt. His most famous gift is basically the Sharif dynasty.

People criticize him because he had great power and if in 11 years of rule where someone has bureaucracy, the army, the judges and the west on your side and still you cannot bring change, you are a sad page in history.
That's was what I pointed out. He was the great hypocritical ruler in uniform we seen in Pak history, there is no comparison with civilians like Bhutto what he did and Zia did, Nawaz is his spiritual son Zia torn apart PML into dozen factions just coz of his spiritual son Nawaz and we still facing remain of it in shape of PMLN.
 
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Because Zia is the biggest scumbag, piece of shit we have ever had in our history.
 
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