Why Armies Do Not Trust Air Forces

[Abingdonboy]

It is still pretty vague what will go go wrt the IAF vs IA for control of certain airborne assets. But there is no doubt this analysis has, for it's own purposes, overlooked some crucial factors. Namely, the IA's AAC is undergoing a MASSIVE expansion the next 3-5 years- 100s of medium-lift ALH, 100s of LCH, 100s of LUH. From where the IA AAC is right now to where it will be by 2020 is the steepest of learning curves and will stretch the AAC operationally as it furiously tries to come to terms with this overhaul of its abilities. The fact is the IA AAC has never operated dedicated combat helos-now it has 100+ on order (LCH), it has never operated medium-lift helos- now it has 100s on order (ALH). Trying to throw the world's most advanced attack helo (AH-64E) into the mix is just asking for problems on an operational level.

As far as I have heard the plan is for the IAF to get the 22 AH-64Es that they have worked for (extensive tendering and selection process) as well as any follow on units they feel they need (another 22-30 possibly) but then the IA AAC will get their own dedicated heavy attack helos by 2020-22. What remains unclear right now is whether the IA will simply get AH-64Es or will conduct their own selection process with the likes of the Mi-28 and Ah-64 going up against each other.


What seems to be likely is that both the IAF and IA will be operating their own fleets of heavy attack helos in the near future. Tis could change but we'll have to wait and see. It's far from an ideal solution though.

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

'Why Armies Do Not Trust Air Forces'

Because we airmen are smarter, more handsome, more virile, better endowed, and get more chicks.

You forgot: Narcissistic and Whiny

..until you eject over Indian country, then you want your mommies. Navy pilots are much tougher just ask any SERE instructor.

SERE, Survival Evasion Resistance Escape? You mean hiding under foliage when you get shot down?

lol you wish........How often you get laid in the air??

One of the kicks on the ground is you can get laid whenever you want.

by the way, what's the different between JTAC and TACP

JTAC is usually one FAC personal, TACP is a team directing air space

 

[GR!FF!N]

IAF despises India army, one of IAF had said that it will cost 40 years for army to learn how to operate these babies

source please...

Indian Army aviation Corps already are using Attack helos like Rudra and logistical support helos like Dhruv,Cheetah and Chetak since 1984 in the battlefields like world's highest battlefield,Siachen.


oh and I got promoted to Major general.. all the others beneath me bow before me..

 

[gambit]

lol you wish........How often you get laid in the air??

One of the kicks on the ground is you can get laid whenever you want.

by the way, what's the different between JTAC and TACP

TACP is a job (assignment) while JTAC is a cert. The JTAC is essentially a TACP member certified to work 'Joint' operations, hence the 'J' designator, meaning he works with foreigners who usually speaks American with funny accents. The TACP is a team to which the JTAC is assigned. The TACP team consists of different service branches to give balance to demands of air resources. Neither JTAC nor TACP have to be a SpecOps operator, but it does help if he is somehow a 'badass' because the missions are often physically and mentally more demanding than the average infantryman or airman where they came from.

When I was active duty, neither job (TACP) nor certification (JTAC) officially existed. In fact, when I was active duty, Combat Weather was not an official career field but considered only a temporary (volunteered) assignment. In the USAFSOC back then, only CCTs and PJs were official SpecOps fields and the highest ranking official for both career fields was a Chief, not even a butter bar. Officers who were assigned to command any SOC unit did so out of chance, very seldom out of desire, and they usually moved onto 'better' things. Unlike the Rangers or SEALs, these USAFSOC commanders never had to pass the physical training necessary for the enlisted they lead.

Back in my days, CCTs usually took on the role of the 'unofficial official' liaison for any ad hoc joint service operations that require air controllers. The PJs were in a class all their own. Combat Weather was essentially a group of weathergeeks who volunteered to do something out of the offices and what they have to do was different and dangerous enough that they earned the grey beret, but because the position was essentially a TDY of sort, the AF never bothered to formalized it into the overall USAF structure. Just like when Systems Command (defunct) needed temporary people to do certain 'stuff' related to their fields of expertise but way out of their usual working theater, AFSC asked the normal Air Force units for volunteers. That was how I ended up in Desert Storm as a scavenger/thief of any Iraqi air asset.

Today, USAFSOC is a whole different -- and much better -- beast. They have permanent officers, in dedicated career fields, to speak for the command's unique needs. These leaders went through the same selection process (pipes) as the enlisted, just like Rangers and SEALs leaders does for their people. Combat Weather is an official career field. Then there are the formal TACP and JTAC positions. If I am active duty today, I probably would have tried for the TACP or JTAC position.

 

[jhungary]

TACP is a job (assignment) while JTAC is a cert. The JTAC is essentially a TACP member certified to work 'Joint' operations, hence the 'J' designator, meaning he works with foreigners who usually speaks American with funny accents. The TACP is a team to which the JTAC is assigned. The TACP team consists of different service branches to give balance to demands of air resources. Neither JTAC nor TACP have to be a SpecOps operator, but it does help if he is somehow a 'badass' because the missions are often physically and mentally more demanding than the average infantryman or airman where they came from.

When I was active duty, neither job (TACP) nor certification (JTAC) officially existed. In fact, when I was active duty, Combat Weather was not an official career field but considered only a temporary (volunteered) assignment. In the USAFSOC back then, only CCTs and PJs were official SpecOps fields and the highest ranking official for both career fields was a Chief, not even a butter bar. Officers who were assigned to command any SOC unit did so out of chance, very seldom out of desire, and they usually moved onto 'better' things. Unlike the Rangers or SEALs, these USAFSOC commanders never had to pass the physical training necessary for the enlisted they lead.

Back in my days, CCTs usually took on the role of the 'unofficial official' liaison for any ad hoc joint service operations that require air controllers. The PJs were in a class all their own. Combat Weather was essentially a group of weathergeeks who volunteered to do something out of the offices and what they have to do was different and dangerous enough that they earned the grey beret, but because the position was essentially a TDY of sort, the AF never bothered to formalized it into the overall USAF structure. Just like when Systems Command (defunct) needed temporary people to do certain 'stuff' related to their fields of expertise but way out of their usual working theater, AFSC asked the normal Air Force units for volunteers. That was how I ended up in Desert Storm as a scavenger/thief of any Iraqi air asset.

Today, USAFSOC is a whole different -- and much better -- beast. They have permanent officers, in dedicated career fields, to speak for the command's unique needs. These leaders went through the same selection process (pipes) as the enlisted, just like Rangers and SEALs leaders does for their people. Combat Weather is an official career field. Then there are the formal TACP and JTAC positions. If I am active duty today, I probably would have tried for the TACP or JTAC position.

I had a mission with those CCT guy from the Air force, as far as I seen they are doing pretty much the same job as any air traffic controller do in a tower, just you are in the very front of your front line, even behind enemy lines.

That come back to one question, if JTAC is only a certification then why there are some TACP personnel wear a JTAC badge while they are supposed to wear TACP badges? So, is it something like skill/qualification tab we got in the Army, or that was a whole another things in the Air force??

 

[gambit]

oh and I got promoted to Major general.. all the others beneath me bow before me..

Congratulations on your promotion to Major Genital.

 

[gambit]

I had a mission with those CCT guy from the Air force, as far as I seen they are doing pretty much the same job as any air traffic controller do in a tower, just you are in the very front of your front line, even behind enemy lines.

That come back to one question, if JTAC is only a certification then why there are some TACP personnel wear a JTAC badge while they are supposed to wear TACP badges? So, is it something like skill/qualification tab we got in the Army, or that was a whole another things in the Air force??

Yes. A JTAC cert is like a recognized ADDITIONAL skill set besides the already qualified ones. A TACP may not be a JTAC while a JTAC is always assigned to a TACP team. A TACP may be in training or just recently qualified. A JTAC is always an experienced and more skilled senior TACP. All of these were explored in the late '80s and when I got out in '92, they were formalized.

 

[gambit]

This sort of problem between the army and air force is not unique to India and is actually quite common.

Seriously...People should understand that air forces are the youngest of all forces and are still asserting their expertise.

Probably until the end of the universe, the main goal of warfare will always be the acquisition and prolong control of ground territory. This is the crucial difference. One group works to deny the enemy the capabilities of waging wars. Another group works to deny the enemy ground territory. In this, tactical air commanders should be subordinate to ground commanders. Strategic air commanders usually have targets that are crucial to denying the enemy the capability to wage war and should have their own autonomy because those capabilities are always deep in enemy home soil and attacks from the 3rd dimension is the only avenue.

 

[dbc]

SERE is for wankers.........

I did not say nor suggest SERE is a test of manhood. But for an aviator it is as hard as it will ever get.

SERE, Survival Evasion Resistance Escape? You mean hiding under foliage when you get shot down?

There is much more to SERE than hiding under 'foliage'

 

[GR!FF!N]

Congratulations on your promotion to Major Genital.

lol..thanx buddy..

 

[jhungary]

I did not say nor suggest SERE is a test of manhood. But for an aviator it is as hard as it will ever get.

There is much more to SERE than hiding under 'foliage'

I think the hardest is AFSFO training, especially for PJ Pilot..........

They said they are using the same stuff as with the Army Special Force and train where they trained (In JFK Special Warfare center)