Why are our neighbours still operating and buying new BVR-less Fighters?

[newdelhinsa]

not only they have BVR capable platforms but BVR missiles in large numbers.

ok now we can close the thread or op is waiting answer from pakistani/chinese posters ?

 

[sancho]

As far as I know, they are in active reserve and not deployed. If they are deployed then under which squadrons are they deployed in?

As for MiG-27s and Jaguars, please read my reply.

Mirage-2000s are not BVR? What the...?? You're wrong.

Mig 21 Bis and MiG-21 M/MF, all frontline squads that will be phased out now because they are waaay too old, but all of them are BVRless and they are the majority of the Mig 21 fleet.
And the Matra missiles the Mirage 2000 currently use are hardly BVR capable, the coming upgrade will get them MICA and then they will be really BVR capable!

Bangladesh is getting new F-7s.

Since you refered to wiki:

10 F-7MB remains operational of a total of 12 F-7MB and 4 FT-7MB delivered in early 1990. All F-7MB are scheduled to be retired from active duty from 2014.
12 F-7BG with 4 FT-7BG received in early 2006.
In 2010 Bangladesh Air Force had placed an order for a total of 16 stop-gap F-7BGI to be delivered by 2012 which shall eventually retire F-7MB and A-5III from active duty starting from 2014.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Aircraft_of_the_Bangladesh_Air_Force


So they are retiring them as well and just bought a few as a stopgap.

 

[BigDaddyWatch]

China
PLAAF
J-7/F-7------------720 (MiG-21 copy)
J-8----------------180 (Su-15 copy)
J-6----------------940 (MiG-19 copy)
PLAN
J-7/F-7------------90 (MiG-21 copy)
J-6----------------300 (MiG-19 copy)
J-5----------------70 (MiG-17 copy)
JH-7---------------60
Total----------2360

I can't speak for those other countries but these figures from China is more than a decade old. The J-6's are long retired, The J-8 do have BVR. The only fighters in service that doesn't have BVR is the J-7. They number less than 350 in the PLAAF and the PLANAF and they are being phased out each year by the dozens. Then there is the Q-5 but that's a attack plane.

List of active Chinese military aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Su-11]

Mig 21 Bis and MiG-21 M/MF, all frontline squads that will be phased out now because they are waaay too old, but all of them are BVRless and they are the majority of the Mig 21 fleet.

They are already taken out of service and mothballed, last i remember. We have only Bisons in service now.

And the Matra missiles the Mirage 2000 currently use are hardly BVR capable, the coming upgrade will get them MICA and then they will be really BVR capable!

Yea, their range is not very huge, but the fact is they are BVR missiles. Fighters or bombers at 37km range is not something which you can see with the naked eye, for sure.

I can't speak for those other countries but these figures from China is more than a decade old. The J-6's are long retired, The J-8 do have BVR. The only fighters in service that doesn't have BVR is the J-7. They number less than 350 in the PLAAF and the PLANAF and they are being phased out each year by the dozens. Then there is the Q-5 but that's a attack plane.

List of active Chinese military aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh thanks! I was using old bookmarks for PLAAF and PLAN. Will go though the AMR reference.
Now this is really interesting!

 

[Su-11]

So they are retiring them as well and just bought a few as a stopgap.

Well good for them. But they are still getting new BVR-less ones and sugar coat it with words like "stop-gap". Stop-gap or not, they will only be retired when their airframe lives is fully exhausted.

 

[xuxu1457]

should be moved to joke thread

J-5 retired tens years
J-6: the last training J-6 retired in 10.2006

J-7:about 300-400 left for training
J-8:about 210 left, most of them in navy, they have BVR ability

JH-7:180, have BVR ability，for attacking warship and ground

 

[Windjammer]

Pakistan
F-7MP----------150
F-7PG----------50
Mirage III------120
Total----------320


I can't speak for any one else, however as for Pakistan, do you have any idea on the induction period of PAF Mirages and F-7s......60s, 70s and 80s......however the F-7PGs, which were introduced in 2002....in the middle of hostilities with India, weren't exactly inducted to just fire off the sidewinder types of missiles.....since PAF already had that capability with other aircraft, and as for the Mirages, one of the main objective to the up gradation to ROSE-III standard was to achieve some form of BVR capability as well as IFR.

 

[Armstrong]

I thought the F-7s were upgraded to the F-7PG standard with that Italian Radar (Selix Galileo was it ?) with a range of about 40kms & that they are BVR capable if only just.

And while you're at it, a noob question : Can sort of a link-up between AWACs & fighters give some sort of a BVR capability ? Which is to say that the AWACs provide the 'detection & the guidance' whereas the carrier for the missile under question is a 'fighter' ?

 

[Su-11]

should be moved to joke thread

J-5 retired tens years
J-6: the last training J-6 retired in 10.2006

J-7:about 300-400 left for training
J-8:about 210 left, most of them in navy, they have BVR ability

JH-7:180, have BVR ability for attacking warship and ground

I was using some old bookmarks for Chinese crafts. But I doubt J-7 is used only for training. JJ-7s are used in training.

JJ-6s are still used in training, but it is outside the scope of this thread.

JH-7 does not have BVR capability as per wiki. If you have a better source please post it along with how many of them are with BVR capable. Same goes for J-8.

Agree with J-5 fact.

Will post the new numbers soon.

I can't speak for any one else, however as for Pakistan, do you have any idea on the induction period of PAF Mirages and F-7s......60s, 70s and 80s......however the F-7PGs, which were introduced in 2002....in the middle of hostilities with India, weren't exactly inducted to just fire off the sidewinder types of missiles.....since PAF already had that capability with other aircraft, and as for the Mirages, one of the main objective to the up gradation to ROSE-III standard was to achieve some form of BVR capability as well as IFR.

Agree with everything except BVR capability for F-7PGs and Mirage-IIIs. A little proof would help. You posted a nice pic with refueling receptacle , why not do the same with a BVR missile?

 

[Arav_Rana]

Will you please count these countries ( specially pak and china ) other fighters ?
then you ll see they have bvr capable fighters planes in good no.
Specially China have 500+ 4(+)gen. planes , means more then us..

so please don't compare like that, we already have many stupid threads where we always keep fighting for nothing.

 

[Su-11]

I thought the F-7s were upgraded to the F-7PG standard with that Italian Radar (Selix Galileo was it ?) with a range of about 40kms & that they are BVR capable if only just.

Yea, but no BVR missile was integrated. Dunno if the radar's range is correct.

And while you're at it, a noob question : Can sort of a link-up between AWACs & fighters give some sort of a BVR capability ? Which is to say that the AWACs provide the 'detection & the guidance' whereas the carrier for the missile under question is a 'fighter' ?

It has to do with the frequency. Long wave radars are good for detection but their ability to guide missiles are poor. But with active radar homing missiles maybe they can be datalinked, not sure though.

Ok, new PLAAF and PLAN numbers of BVR-less fighters.

China
PLAAF
J-7/F-7------------350 (MiG-21 copy)
J-8----------------180 (Su-15 copy?)
JH-7---------------70
PLAN
J-7/F-7------------30 (MiG-21 copy)
J-8----------------48 (Su-15 copy?)
JH-7---------------35
Total----------713

My thanks to BigDaddyWatch for the new updated link to PLA AF and N numbers

 

[JonAsad]

Let me guess some body told the OP that IAF has all BVR fighters-
and all the neighbours still buying non BVR (BVR-less ) fighters?-

is that so?-

:facepalm:-

 

[Su-11]

Let me guess some body told the OP that IAF has all BVR fighters-
and all the neighbours still buying non BVR (BVR-less ) fighters?-

is that so?-

:facepalm:-

Let me guess, you are still in denial, aren't you?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Thread closed, as the starter of the thread has no idea what he is talking about, nor he has done proper research, nor he is accepting his own countrymen arguments that IAF is still not wholly BVR capable.

Better to do more research and then open threads on technical matters.

By the way, Chinese J-8s thought to be BVR-less by thread starter, are in reality very much BVR capable.

http://www.airforceworld.com/pla/gfx/j8/j-8ii-pl-12-missile-china-1.jpg