Why A Medium / Heavy Strike Aircraft For Defense of Pakistan?

[Naif al Hilali]

Copying this again from my earlier post:
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-52_Stratofortress

B-52 Stratofortress
The bomber is capable of carrying up to 70,000 pounds (32,000 kg) of weapons,[5] and has a typical combat range of more than 8,800 miles (14,080 km) without aerial refueling.

The B-52 completed sixty years of continuous service with its original operator in 2015. After being upgraded between 2013 and 2015, it is expected to serve into the 2040s.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/paf-bombers.469738/page-2#ixzz4UTgcP8Ks
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Question: Why did they upgrade them again in 2013-15 and why do they expect them to serve into the 2040s?
The point I am trying to make is that it is incorrect to say 'Days of bombers are over'.

Secondly, everyone understands that acquiring even 1 stratofortress like aircraft is beyond the realm of possibility.

That said, what I am trying to do is enumerating the various mission scenarios where intensive air offense will be needed. I am hoping other members can join the analysis with information like what is the enemy concentration we may face, how much munitions (1000s of kg) we may need to drop, and how much distance we may need to travel. Remember, in an actual operation, you don't move in a straight line from X to Y. Mission planning determines areas of enemy's weakness where radar coverage is low, enemy SAMs and fighters are not a threat, and then a route can be determined. Such a route can require a very long distance to be covered.

Given the various scenarios and inputs on the previously listed points, what would be a good bomber for PAF? Let's find the theoretical answer. Once we know the ideal, we can try to approximate it as best as we can.

@pakistanipower @Naif al Hilali plz read my response above.

they don't build them like that anymore. usaf seems to shy away from boeing's dependable, sometimes over-engineered aircraft.

the reason for the b-52's longevity is the prohibitive expense and low availability rates of ensuing bombers (only 20 B-2's).

please read Arthur C Clarke's short story "Superiority" on the web.

Like oscar said (implicitly), a Tornado/Su-34/Su-35 aircraft could work for PAF.

tactical and strategic nukes are what Pakistan has, can produce, and afford to field.

Imported aircraft also can be disabled by their manufacturing nations in wartime.

 

[MastanKhan]

Copying this again from my earlier post:
--------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-52_Stratofortress

B-52 Stratofortress
The bomber is capable of carrying up to 70,000 pounds (32,000 kg) of weapons,[5] and has a typical combat range of more than 8,800 miles (14,080 km) without aerial refueling.

The B-52 completed sixty years of continuous service with its original operator in 2015. After being upgraded between 2013 and 2015, it is expected to serve into the 2040s.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/paf-bombers.469738/page-2#ixzz4UTgcP8Ks
--------------------------------------------

Question: Why did they upgrade them again in 2013-15 and why do they expect them to serve into the 2040s?
The point I am trying to make is that it is incorrect to say 'Days of bombers are over'.

Secondly, everyone understands that acquiring even 1 stratofortress like aircraft is beyond the realm of possibility.

That said, what I am trying to do is enumerating the various mission scenarios where intensive air offense will be needed. I am hoping other members can join the analysis with information like what is the enemy concentration we may face, how much munitions (1000s of kg) we may need to drop, and how much distance we may need to travel. Remember, in an actual operation, you don't move in a straight line from X to Y. Mission planning determines areas of enemy's weakness where radar coverage is low, enemy SAMs and fighters are not a threat, and then a route can be determined. Such a route can require a very long distance to be covered.

Given the various scenarios and inputs on the previously listed points, what would be a good bomber for PAF? Let's find the theoretical answer. Once we know the ideal, we can try to approximate it as best as we can.

@pakistanipower @Naif al Hilali plz read my response above.

Hi,

I do not know if you have read this or not----but enjoy the read

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...plane-americas-super-bomber-set-massive-16262

With the invent of standoff weapons---the americans have chosen the B52 to be the center from where their deep strike force would make the charge at the enemy from a distance it cannot be seen from.

This machine is not upgrade for conventional bombings over the enemy target---but rather from 250---350 miles away. Without the enemy knowing---from where the strike came and what hit them---.

And that is why---I have talked about the JH7B---it can fly deep---it can carry 2 heavy standoff weapons and can deliver them from a distance and get away.

And I talk about the JH7B---because it is the least expensive of the J16 - SU34-35's---and it is readily available.

Everyone has their own specialties, a focus on some particular aspect of things. I like to learn from everyone's specialties and I think that's what makes the forum so diverse. If he has lots of technical knowledge, I find that impressive. I can learn from that and then apply it to tactics and strategy.

Hi,

A speciality that does not bring new ideas and show you different venues in how to overcome problems---or an openness to a new form of battle---is basically WORTHLESS.

Naysayers---it can't be done---what has been done i the past is the right way to do things---these are the limitations---we live with limitations---we have funding problems---we believe in our pilots---we will die defending our soil---.

Golda Meir proved them all wrong---by using the example of the Prophet of those very people that she smashed to kingdom come..

 

[CriticalThought]

OK. I will need to be away from the computer for a while. Here are some missions where I think bombers make sense. Either because of the range involved, or the amount of munitions needed. When facing weaker enemy, I want our attack to be decisive. No long, pitched battles with artillery and tanks. A clear, decisive air assault to send across a powerful message. Also, against the weaker enemy, I consider a ballistic missile attack to be reminiscent of the Iraq/Iran war and Saddam Hussein like tactics. I would ideally avoid their use.

1. Deep strikes into Afghanistan.
2. Demolishing large swathes of Afghan army nearer to the border.
3. Long range mission against Indian naval battle groups.
4. Long range mission largely over the Arabian sea/Indian ocean, keeping within areas of low radar coverage and air defence, to strike the enemy from a point he does not expect.
5. Targeting enemy assets in Nicobar and Andaman Islands. This assumes that S-400 batteries are able to consistently take down our long range missiles. Also, for this case let's presume friendly skies over China and then a final risky leg over India, Bangladesh and Bay of Bengal.

Any other scenarios you can think of?

 

[MastanKhan]

OK. I will need to be away from the computer for a while. Here are some missions where I think bombers make sense. Either because of the range involved, or the amount of munitions needed. When facing weaker enemy, I want our attack to be decisive. No long, pitched battles with artillery and tanks. A clear, decisive air assault to send across a powerful message. Also, against the weaker enemy, I consider a ballistic missile attack to be reminiscent of the Iraq/Iran war and Saddam Hussein like tactics. I would ideally avoid their use.

1. Deep strikes into Afghanistan.
2. Demolishing large swathes of Afghan army nearer to the border.
3. Long range mission against Indian naval battle groups.
4. Long range mission largely over the Arabian sea/Indian ocean, keeping within areas of low radar coverage and air defence, to strike the enemy from a point he does not expect.
5. Targeting enemy assets in Nicobar and Andaman Islands. This assumes that S-400 batteries are able to consistently take down our long range missiles. Also, for this case let's presume friendly skies over China and then a final risky leg over India, Bangladesh and Bay of Bengal.

Any other scenarios you can think of?

Hi,

That is not what you need the deep strike capabilities of Paf---. What you need them is to hit the coatsline deep down on arabian seas / indian ocean withCM400AKG's---HatfV111--and possibly Babur ALCM future version.l

You have to learn to understand---what would hurt the enemy the most---the running of the money---the out flow of capitol from the country---panic will hurt them as well---.

And how to create massive panic----hit their jugular vein---the money center mumbai---between 8---10 tactical strikes.

You cannot use masrro for heawy strike aircraft---. It will have to Dalbandin---flying straight down over gwadar---over arabian seas---staying around 400--500 miles from indian coatsline and then making a sudden dash at an appropriate moment---getting within the launch umbrella of their standoff weapons---letting go and tucking their tails in and high tailing out of Dodge---.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

If you have not noticed yet---he only posts technical stuff---.

But he has no tactical insight---he has no strategy output---he does not talk about how to fight a war and what the strategy and game plan would be. He does not say how to knock out a larger enemy---or how to put a hurt on a larger enemy---.

and no---it is not me who 'plagiarized; the idea---. My idea of this route has been posted on this board for many a years---. Take the air war and deep strike from over the arabian seas---and you will spread the enemy air force thin.

In the beginging---I got impressed with his knowledge and information---but then I realized---he is a fake---he is only one dimensional---. War is not one dimensional---air war is not one dimensional---.

Paf has become one dimensional---that is why I have issues with the Paf---.

He does not miss a beat about bringing in religious lectures---I just gave him the example of Prophet Muhammad---pbuh---the prophet of the muslims---.

Now he is going to run to his daddy and cry---.

Actually I think our nation is getting devoid of strategic thinking

 

[CriticalThought]

Actually I think our nation is getting devoid of strategic thinking

Zardari, NS all come from London, rule over us, go away. Maybe on some other thread I will reveal how systematically mental slavery is being institutionalized in our nation. We don't even dare to think out of the box.

 

[MastanKhan]

Actually I think our nation is getting devoid of strategic thinking

Hi,

When a nation does not have general libraries to educate the public but only po-rn and filth---what else would you expect----.

I get shocked when these so acclaimed sons and daughters of great muslims warriors of the past have no clue about weapons---tactics---strategy---deceit--larceny and deception manipulation in the form of war.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

When a nation does not have general libraries to educate the public but only **** and filth---what else would you expect----.

I get shocked when these so acclaimed sons and daughters of great muslims warriors of the past have no clue about weapons---tactics---strategy---deceit--larceny and deception manipulation in the form of war.

If we had strategists, we would have thought our way out of troubles long time ago....we make plans but we don't make backup strategies...We always think linear...Our kind hearted general wanted to eliminate the corruption and he made big statement but apparently he had no strategy to deal with the crooks who always seem to stay a few step ahead of him...Similarly our planners or whoever are ruling us are unable to understand the fourth gen war....or if they understand then their action is criminal incompetency and treason against the nation. For example, a lot of media elements have been given a free hand to spread false information about everything whether it was two nation theory or national defence etc
We basically need Mao style revolution and iron hand to deal with such elements but we still believe that democracy is the panacea.. how gullible we are

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

That is not what you need the deep strike capabilities of Paf---. What you need them is to hit the coatsline deep down on arabian seas / indian ocean withCM400AKG's---HatfV111--and possibly Babur ALCM future version.l

You have to learn to understand---what would hurt the enemy the most---the running of the money---the out flow of capitol from the country---panic will hurt them as well---.

And how to create massive panic----hit their jugular vein---the money center mumbai---between 8---10 tactical strikes.

You cannot use masrro for heawy strike aircraft---. It will have to Dalbandin---flying straight down over gwadar---over arabian seas---staying around 400--500 miles from indian coatsline and then making a sudden dash at an appropriate moment---getting within the launch umbrella of their standoff weapons---letting go and tucking their tails in and high tailing out of Dodge---.

Agreed. But Nicobar/Andaman is of critical importance to India. They could build a veritable fortress by deploying heavy air defenses in the way of Pakistani missiles then offend us from there.

 

[war&peace]

Zardari, NS all come from London, rule over us, go away. Maybe on some other thread I will reveal how systematically mental slavery is being institutionalized in our nation. We don't even dare to think out of the box.

Then whats the responsibility of those who take oath of defending the nation and then benefit from all the perks and privileges but act selfishly either for their retirement plans or careers...They always seem to be helping the status quo and playing their heinous role in drowning the nation further into the slavery.

 

[MastanKhan]

Agreed. But Nicobar/Andaman is of critical importance to India. They could build a veritable fortress by deploying heavy air defenses in the way of Pakistani missiles then offend us from there.

Hi,

The first step for success is to " Control the controllable "---if they can use andeman & nicobar islands---you just need to pulverize mumbai---and you will smash the enemy---.

Mumbai is the achilles heel of the opponent---it is an easier and reachable target---it is the wealth and economic center of the enemy---it is the jugular vein---. Cut it---and you have the enemy bleeding bad---.

 

[Naif al Hilali]

OK, questions to all the War College graduates on this thread:

question: what are the airfield runway requirements for the B-52?

question: why do PAF F-16s in peacetime use afterburner to take off in 1,000-2,000 feet when they have 8,000 feet runway available? why are motorways and taxiways practiced for takeoffs and landings?

question: what further assets are required to make B-52 type aircraft survivable in modern day combat specially against a peer or superior adversary?

answer these and make them fit into the realities of Day 0 India-Pakistan conflict, let alone Day 3 and Day 7 scenarios.

question: what is the Pakistan Defense Budget (let alone PAF's measly portion of it) and how many airframes need to be urgently replaced?

question: what are the actual combat payloads for heavy fighters (hint: f-15e.info)? what are the actual delivered payloads for B-1s and B-52s these days and in what role are they principally employed now?

question: can Pakistan produce an F-16 equivalent aircraft, or a MiG-29 equivalent, or a F-15E/Su-34/ Tornado equivalent? can it pay for the airframes (even used ones) and their integration? are bombers even more taxing on manufacturing and/or force integration issues?

question: does Israel accept US limitations on source code denial and non-US munitions integration? is Turkey progressing towards the same doctrine?

question: is it more important for Pakistan to develop own avionics or at least develop or have access to source code for them, than other pipe dreams? is it important for Pakistan to be able to manufacture munitions or integrate ones from different countries/suppliers?

question: is it important to be able to develop next-generation aircraft manufacturing or at the least integration of their manufacture and development in their own industry?

question: does strategic bomber acquisition negate all these factors or supersede them?

question: given all these questions are satisfactorily answered, what would a strategic bomber bring to the table that submarine- and land- launched ballistic and cruise missiles won't?

question: is it better to have 20 stealth fighters or two non-stealthy strategic bombers for the same development/training/basing/acquistion/support costs?

 

[Gregor Clegane]

Mumbai is the achilles heel of the opponent---it is an easier and reachable target---it is the wealth and economic center of the enemy---it is the jugular vein---. Cut it---and you have the enemy bleeding bad---.

Karachi is a far bigger Achilles heel of Pakistan than Mumbai is of India.

 

[Naif al Hilali]

Karachi is a far bigger Achilles heel of Pakistan than Mumbai is of India.

Pakistan Navy is justifiably concerned. strikes on Karachi can take out half of Pakistan's strategic and production value.

unfortunately, PN aviation has been a step-child of PAF. they always got the derelict aircraft unless Uncle Sam gifted them cool Excess Defense Article [EDA] toys.

nice to see the submarine order. would like to see two squadrons Su-35 or equivalent directly purchased and maintained by the Navy, the four Turkish MILGEM class corvettes/frigates, specially if equipped with @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 's much advocated medium-altitude Aster or equivalent air-defense system, another base like Masroor between Karachi and Gwadar, more small and stealthy FastAttackCraft [FAC] for coastal work.

Had a friend ages ago who had been on the 1980s Mirage 2000 kickback inquiry panel. Honest guy who lamented that one issue which led to PAF having to procure what I called MiG-21s back then (and later the used Mirage airframes). With the Super Saber type programs derailed and the more publicized Agosta scandal tainting Pakistan Navy's acquisition prospects plus all the political upheavals and destruction of the economy 1990-2013, it seems our conventional forces were at their weakest ever.

Alhamdolillah, the successful nuclear program and development of independent delivery vehicles for them as well as tanks and other technology by the Army has kept the wolves at bay for the last three decades.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

That is incorrect---Karachi has been targeted before and will be targeted again.

Mumbai has never been targeted before---the people have not seen a missile strike or any other kind of bombardment----.

Secondly---there is a lots of foreign capital in mumbai----maybe a 1000 times more than Karachi---.