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Why A Medium / Heavy Strike Aircraft For Defense of Pakistan?

Incorrect logic. The passengers tell the airline where they want to go, the pilots fly them there. Untrained passengers who have zero idea what they are doing most of the time and cannot fly the place will never make it to the destination.
Sir we you can't win an argument with those who thinks defense planning is like going on a plane on vacations ... and airliner flies on instructions of passengers ...
 
Brother ... bhai tu kero na offense kis ny mana kya ha ... Sir unlike fan boy stuff war planning is different ... it is always mix of defense and offence ... First step is to always to defense your border and then send an offensive force ...

Bhai, if the mix of offence and defence is in favour of offence then defence automatically becomes stronger. Ek bar kadam oothow .
 
Sir we you can't win an argument with those who thinks defense planning is like going on a plane on vacations ... and airliner flies on instructions of passengers ...

Humanity is a mixed bunch, some of them are artists while others are engineers. Some are naturally gregarious and extroverted while others prefer the solitude that could be classified as introverted behavior. They also come with their fair share of insecurities and social constructs that change from society to society, geography to geography, religion to religion, gender to gender.

Some of us like our fears and anxieties assuaged, so we will sometimes make up stories to get that attention. Some of us like for people to remember us as being more than the mere mortal existence, we inhabit. After all, not all of us are secret agents or information technology, multi billionaires or powerful politicians changing the fates of millions. It is those ordinary people that sometimes in a mixture of craving for attention or masking their own insecurities will invent or imagine events and realities that never exist or have never occurred. One must not confuse knowledge and factual information with opinion. Opinions are built upon information or can be just made up out of thin air. Some opinions are frivolous and prone to being changed easily due to a person not giving it too much weight. Others tend to hold onto their opinions with the much more ferocity, regardless of how nonfactual and illogical they might be.

A more common term for such ideas is nonsense. Previously, the only way for such ideas to propagate used to be drawing room discussions, tabloid columns or the trashy television show. The Internet, however, has changed the rate at which nonsense propagates and infects humans.

The year is 2001 and I am waiting on the teacher at my Cambridge Education Board school (Where the majority of the elite and middle class in Pakistan in the larger cities prefer to send their children) for Pakistan History to arrive and begin her verbatim recitation of the Cambridge assigned textbook that is supposed to teach our nubile minds on Pakistani history. This day was different, it was September the 12th 2001. As if by some odd sense of irony, the night before I was flying a Bell 204 Jetranger on Microsoft flight simulator 98 – a true classic, and had tried several landings on the 2nd tower of the WTC which had the helipad when CNN broke the news. I watched in silence till the early AMs of Pakistan standard time and went to sleep thinking Who would do it? Why would they do it? How airliners could be flown in so tightly in between buildings without trained pilot at the helm? Where was the USAF in intercepting these aircraft? Surely the New York and Washington Air National Guard would respond as it is standard practice to have a ten minute alert and so on and on….

Now, I failed to mention that I was obsessed with aviation as a child which is why my glasses were an unfortunate event in my life. That still did not keep me from buying every other book and magazine on aircraft and other defense matters from the various thrift book stores that line Islamabad and Karachi since the age of 10. So why the age of 14 I was quite well versed in topics much different than the usual occupations of boys that age.

Back in class, our teacher whose existence I detested with all my heart arrived in class looking more ashen faced than usual. In a rather callous manner I presumed that someone in her family had died. “Did you know what happened?!, The Americans will take revenge, my cousin told me that they have oxygen eating missiles that will asphyxiate all of us in 30 minutes” and then she burst into sobs. Most of the class looked bewildered and some of the more emotional sassy girls also decided to cry because it was important to score points and why not?

My mind however, drifted onto thermobaric warheads and the ridiculousness of her assumption since neither the Minutemen Series or Trident was equipped with them as they employed thermonuclear warheads which wont asphyxiate us as much as fry us or blind us. Furthermore, strategic ballistic missiles in general were not equipped with conventional warheads; so where did this woman who I already considered a stupid sass pick up this nonsense?

What did become clear to me at that age was that people in Pakistan will believe anything that their cousin, uncle or shopkeeper tells them. They don’t seem to want to verify anything with at least a few other sources; if it is what they want to believe or they don’t want to believe then nothing can change their mind.

What is it that is the Pakistani mind that it decides to accept hearsay and unverifiable information as factual and and believes it to an extent that it surpasses their own religious beliefs. As I would grow older I would realize this is not a Pakistan specific condition, but it extends across the human race. The majority of humanity is generally lazy and prefer willful ignorance to the verification of any information that they gather via all of their senses.
@Horus Why I know too much

@CriticalThought why I emphasize a LOT, a LOT of reading from multiple sources
 
Incorrect logic. The passengers tell the airline where they want to go, the pilots fly them there. Untrained passengers who have zero idea what they are doing most of the time and cannot fly the place will never make it to the destination.

That's what Transworld airline (TWA) thought and look what happened to it.
Also my friend we all have relatives in armed forces and our opinions matter!
 
Hi,

Please don't assume that the targets are simply civilians or that civilians will be targeted---. The targets will be of tactical and military importance---and there will be 100's of them---.

You should know that when discussing military matters---the targets are of military importance and just not random targets---.

If the military brass knew---they have not shown anything to counter it---and if they have some plan---it really is not worth anything so far---.

And again---please don't assume that the " military brass " is more intelligent in planning than any other civilian.

They have failed so far.

View attachment 365117

Hi,

If you look at this map---the best tactical solution is shamsi base---dalbandin which is right on top of gwadar---.

They aircraft can fly 400---500 miles parallel to the enemy coastline and position itself to strike at targets in areas that have never been hit before---dash in and from standoff distances let lose their weapons at the mumbai coastline and its assets---and be gone.

The purpose is to create a major panic in the lower states of the enemy lands---and with proper subversive tactics---to create a situation of chaos and civil unrest---destruction of water supply---fuel dumps---bridges in major cities---create chaos---mayhem and panic---in the city and let the city public destroy it itself---.

You children have to clue how to fight a war---. Bomb this and bomb that---defensive here and defensive there---what is this---a frigging weed smoking contest---.

@The Sandman @Maxpane ] @Max @The Eagle @Morse_Code[/USER]
 
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That's what Transworld airline (TWA) thought and look what happened to it.
Also my friend we all have relatives in armed forces and our opinions matter!

Getting bad pilots is the fault of the airline; an airline run by people. Hence the people are at fault.

Having your phuppa in the Armed forces does not automatically qualify you as intelligent or capable of assimilating or disseminating truthful information.
 
"Long Legged fighters" - They are not only used for "protecting sea lanes" but have multiple other uses as well, all the way from long loiter time in A2A config, to bomb trucks. One only has to see how the F15 evolved.

PAF's strategic doctrine - with the addition of new long range hardware, it will change. It is inevitable.
Just as an example, despite having the M2K-9 the most advanced Mirage in the world the UAEAF had serious operational restrictions in terms of offensive capability. When the Blk60's achieved FOC, that equation changed.

When the IAF bombed residential areas around air bases in '71 were they strategic tardgets or civilian targets?

"Besides the damage caused to the naval facilities at Karachi harbour, the attacks caused serious damage to civilian life and material. In their air attacks the Indian pilots missed their targets and the heavy explosives fell upon the civilian population like in the neighbourhoods of Gulbahar, Agra Taj Colony, and the like. This created panic among the citizens and many moved houses. The people from upcountry living in Karachi rushed to their hometowns. The naval and air attacks on Karachi continued till there was a ceasefire after Dhaka fell."

http://www.dawn.com/news/708855
I said protecting the sea lanes will be the first and primary function of these long range fighter bombers, I know what else they can be used for Khafee :).
Lets see what happens on the change in doctrine, I think with China so vested economically in Pakistan we can maybe see this as a force multiplier for us with the Chinese bolstering numbers at their forward bases (north of India). Creating a stronger flank (as Mastan would say) for us.
Kemari was and is a strategic target, the civilian damage was collateral damage and the world accepted it as such, the Indian pilots did not "intend" to hit civilian targets, they were trying to land every single piece of ordanance on Kemari complex. Matter of opinion and semantics I guess.
 
Yes, the C-130 could be used as an effective bomber but they are better suited to act as round the clock attackers rather than carpet bombers. What you are forgetting is that the soviets tried the same tactics of carpet bombing against the Muj back in the 80s.

Its effect is better against civilian populations as a demoralizing effect, but on the front lines against a determined enemy it does not work.



The Hijara is nothing more than a local version of 1960's vintage CBU-55 with shaped charges put into it.
so pakistan is screwed then to the might of the cbu 105?
 
"Long Legged fighters" - They are not only used for "protecting sea lanes" but have multiple other uses as well, all the way from long loiter time in A2A config, to bomb trucks. One only has to see how the F15 evolved.

PAF's strategic doctrine - with the addition of new long range hardware, it will change. It is inevitable.
Just as an example, despite having the M2K-9 the most advanced Mirage in the world the UAEAF had serious operational restrictions in terms of offensive capability. When the Blk60's achieved FOC, that equation changed.

When the IAF bombed residential areas around air bases in '71 were they strategic tardgets or civilian targets?

"Besides the damage caused to the naval facilities at Karachi harbour, the attacks caused serious damage to civilian life and material. In their air attacks the Indian pilots missed their targets and the heavy explosives fell upon the civilian population like in the neighbourhoods of Gulbahar, Agra Taj Colony, and the like. This created panic among the citizens and many moved houses. The people from upcountry living in Karachi rushed to their hometowns. The naval and air attacks on Karachi continued till there was a ceasefire after Dhaka fell."

http://www.dawn.com/news/708855

The UAEAF preferred the M2Ks as their strike fighters. The Black Shaheen was designed specifically to give the UAE a standoff capability and so far the Block-60s have nothing comparable to show for it.

so pakistan is screwed then to the might of the cbu 105?
To a large extent - yes. Mass tank formations are going to suffer.
 
The UAEAF preferred the M2Ks as their strike fighters. The Black Shaheen was designed specifically to give the UAE a standoff capability and so far the Block-60s have nothing comparable to show for it.


To a large extent - yes. Mass tank formations are going to suffer.
dont the chinese have any thing to match or have mrls with cluster munitions?
the cbu 105 has to be near the target, dont you imagine pakistani tanks would have aerial cover for their own tanks? im sure the fm 90 can provide that necessary cover.
Pakistan_unveils_new_Air_Defense_sytem_FM-90_HQ-7B_manufacturing_by_China_640_002.jpg


pakistan does need strike fighter but a matter of what, when and how is the issue and the issue of long range air superiority fighter to support them. we we both know theres only 2 fighters available and both as unlikely as each other.

i think its best if you build up cash for a fifth gen fighter you'd get one before india, the amca wont be ready till at least 2030 and the t-50 fgfa wont be ready till 2025. let them waste resources on the tejas. and the rafale saga........
 
dont the chinese have any thing to match or have mrls with cluster munitions?
the cbu 105 has to be near the target, dont you imagine pakistani tanks would have aerial cover for their own tanks? im sure the fm 90 can provide that necessary cover.
Pakistan_unveils_new_Air_Defense_sytem_FM-90_HQ-7B_manufacturing_by_China_640_002.jpg


pakistan does need strike fighter but a matter of what, when and how is the issue and the issue of long range air superiority fighter to support them. we we both know theres only 2 fighters available and both as unlikely as each other.

i think its best if you build up cash for a fifth gen fighter you'd get one before india, the amca wont be ready till at least 2030 and the t-50 fgfa wont be ready till 2025. let them waste resources on the tejas. and the rafale saga........
The Fm-90 is outranged by a high flying flight of Indian aircraft carrying CBU-105s.
 
The Fm-90 is outranged by a high flying flight of Indian aircraft carrying CBU-105s.
hq-16?
or just simply having a aerial support.
pakistan k8's have been armed with the pl5e series missile
 
Bhai, if the mix of offence and defence is in favour of offence then defence automatically becomes stronger. Ek bar kadam oothow .
Ary yaar grow-up man ,,, what we have for defense ? around 80 f16 and 80 jf17 against 250 plus mki numerous mig 29 upg, mirrage 2000, jaguar .... kya baat kerty ho ... you are saying to defend 400 plus 4th generation with only 160 fighters and you are saying to have offensive strategy ... brother ... in comaprison to our resources we already have much offensive strategy ...
 

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