Who Won the Air War in 1971?

[rajeev]

While outwardly claiming to dismiss Pakistan as a defeated and failed state, the Indians continue to show by their actions that they are paranoid about their much smaller neighbor to the West by maintaining most of their troops close to the border with Pakistan.

For example, twenty four of the thirty three Indian infantry divisions are near Pakistan's borders. All three of India's armored divisions are poised against Pakistan. All three of India's mechanized divisions are positioned on Pakistani borders.

If Indians have such an impeccable record of successes against Pakistan in past wars as they claim, why is it that, in practice, they are so fearful of their little neighbor? Why are they planning to increase defense spending by 50% to spend $40 billion, 33% more than the entire 2009-10 Pakistani budget of $30 billion, on defense in 2009-10? Could it be that, in their heart of hearts, they really do not believe their own propaganda and their claims of victory over Pakistan are really hollow?

Haq's Musings: Demolishing Indian War Myths about Pakistan

Does your words make any sense to you - I am really wondering! Pakistan is just annoying kid on the block as far as India is concerned.

Just read through the statements from IAF Chief, IA Chief and IN Chief, you would hear only things loud and clear- India is balancing its strength with China.

Even for defense arrangements, look at how India positioned its planes. It kept all its superior planes Su-30 MKI's towards Chinese borders and only used way older Mig-29K's towards Pakistani border. Doesnt that give you a projection of what India thinks of Pakistani airpower.

In case of army formations, India has most army men standing on Pakistani border because it is from where we have attacked multiple times and it is single source of terrorist infilitration at the moment. We are even using barb wires on the border to slow PA's "moral" efforts.

And lets look at Pakistani reaction. India's overwhelming coventional superiority makes PA Chief and its politicians claim they will launch nuclear bombs if they are attacked. i.e. they feel they are basically defenseless.

Let see the economy size

US = 14 trillion
India = 1.2 trillion ie. US is about 11x times India's economy

India = 1.2 trillion
Pakistan = 170 billion ie. India is 7x times Pakistan's economy.

So, it would appear to you that India is as big to Pakistan compared to US is to India. Now, realistically, how many Indians think India can do anything against US. Nil, right? Let thinks how many Pakistanis think they can come to Panipat even while exploding bombs in Mumbai and Parlimanent. A significant minority, right?

Do you see - inability to see reality clouds the judgement. Other than watching propoganda is it so much depressing to acknowledge what is going in the world. When your Santa and Banta story is over (Amar Singh and Ram Singh of Orange Band who speak Marathi from Hyderabadi Mujahadeen), probably that is when you would see light in Pakistan.

India is on its way to second largest economy by 2050 - an economic giant of 37 trillion - a mere 2.5% budget would be close to 1 trillion in defence budget. Which competition or what competition are talking about w.r.t to Pakistan. India's only competitor in the region is China.

Regarding the war battles, it is funny that Windjammer's evidence is from PAF's historian and reads like a tale book.

Read through wide sources of information. That should help you broaden your understanding of the war.

India's air superiority was proven in Eastern theater even by Pakistanis. In the western theater, after the initial losses, Pakistan moved to a defensive force whereas Indian were taking over Pakistani airspace.

Unless the claim is PAF will choose only certain battles for measurements because only that suits does not make sense to me. The end result was the objective acheived.

India was able to break Pakistan into two. Ninty thousand prisoners was a record in itself. It was the largest capture of army so much said for super human Pakistan (ie. 10x times strength than Kafir).

 

[Windjammer]

Oh John Fricker is a neutral unbiased source? The only people who think so are pakistanis Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Battle for Pakistan: The Air War of 1965


Then post the originals. you censored the authors name - who were you trying to fool. what are the other parts that were "whited out" - what do they say? I refer to the large block of whited out portion and another in the mirage photo caption. does it have something you dont want us to read?

Are you off your rocker, almost 40 years on why would anyone want to chalk out the authors name, specially after he is dead. ????

A name in the F-6 chapter rings a bell, let's see if i can trace it.

 

[chindit]

I suggest you read, "My days with the IAF", by ACM P.C. LAL, who commanded the IAF during the 1971 war.

I have my own copy - thank you. No where does he mentioned that PAF destroyed "many aircraft" or even a "few aircraft" in the intial raids.

Oh, and one other source, Flt. Lt. Harish Sinhji, a Sirsa based MIG-21 pilot taken POW after being shot down over Pakistan. Apart from other information, he disclosed how one night of PAF bombing hit the hangers causing destruction of many aircrafts and over 200 casualties. Sometimes reading between the lines also helps as reading the following interesting chapter proves.

"some other source" - state the source and the exact quote please. otherwise you are just making up things about "destruction of many aircrafts and over 200 casualties"

 

[chindit]

Are you off your rocker, almost 40 years on why would anyone want to chalk out the authors name, specially after he is dead. ????

You tell me. Your scans clearly have several sections "whited out". go back and refer to them again.

You clearly failed to mention the author name in your first post, and the author name is blanked out in the scans. So you know why you wanted to do that. why are you askin gme?

 

[Windjammer]

I have my own copy - thank you. No where does he mentioned that PAF destroyed "many aircraft" or even a "few aircraft" in the intial raids.



"some other source" - state the source and the exact quote please. otherwise you are just making up things about "destruction of many aircrafts and over 200 casualties"

On pages, 249, 256, 271, 283, 286, 287 and 291 he gives a good indication of what's it like to be on the receiving end.
Your problem is since you can't digest what i have posted, hence you are merely digressing. Secondly just by denying all, you your self haven't proved zulch lest for me to clarify anything.

 

[Windjammer]

You tell me. Your scans clearly have several sections "whited out". go back and refer to them again.

You clearly failed to mention the author name in your first post, and the author name is blanked out in the scans. So you know why you wanted to do that. why are you askin gme?

Stop beating about the bush, and find some tangible reason to rant.
As stated earlier, i don't even posses the original article, hence how can you blank out something which appears on your e-mail.

I have yet to see any Indian version to deny these claims.

 

[chindit]

On pages, 249, 256, 271, 283, 286, 287 and 291 he gives a good indication of what's it like to be on the receiving end.
Your problem is since you can't digest what i have posted, hence you are merely digressing. Secondly just by denying all, you your self haven't proved zulch lest for me to clarify anything.

All he wrote about are craters on runways and ineffective bombing. at one place he states that an electric connection ws severed and airfield operated using generator.

So its very interesting how you twist his words. NO WHERE does he mention xx aircraft was destroyed in this bombing or in this strafing in the PAF early strikes. But you claimed otherwise in your post.

 

[chindit]

Stop beating about the bush, and find some tangible reason to rant.
As stated earlier, i don't even posses the original article, .

Okay I misread your earlier post.

surely you don't assume that I have the originals in my possession.

Ask the person who sent you the email what was censored out.

 

[chindit]

From Pakdef http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/1971war/warinwest.html

Over the years, however, factual accounts of the damage inflicted continued to be received from different sources. The most authentic comments emanate from the 1971 Indian Air Force chief himself, who would hardly be inclined to exaggerate the PAF’s performance.


Halwara
"The B-57 dropped 8 bombs, 3 of which landed on the runway, making two major craters . . ." (p.249)

Amritsar
“The attack . . . started with a visit by four Mirages. But the damage, surprisingly and luckily, was not much. There was no warning at all . . . And then it started, an attack a minute . . . They made 4 to 5 craters from the beginning of the runway to about 600 meters . . . Within the hour the runway was repaired. But the AOC-in-C Western Air Command decided that the attack (against Pakistani airfields that night, originally planed to be launched from Amritsar) should be launched from Adampur”. At 10:10 pm that night – five hours after the Mirage attack - there was just “. . . one lane of runway serviceable (when 2 Su-7 pilots) took off in their Sukhois. Immediately after that a PAF B-57 came and dropped bombs.” (p.256)

Pathankot
“When the runway at Pathankot was bombed by Mirages and needed prompt repair, CAPs were flown from Adampur so the job could be quickly done.”

Sirsa
“The PAF B-57’s bombing . . . was enough to make the runway unserviceable for the night . . . The bombs had time-delayed fuses and kept on exploding at intervals till dawn, delaying clearance and repair work.”

Jaisalmer
"One of the bombs hit the underground power cable . . . For the next six hours, Jaisalmer operated on its standby generator and was without telephone facility.”

Uttarlai
“The runway was bombed thrice on the very first evening of the war” . . . (forcing the pilots to use the taxiway for take off and landing) . . . “That is how we operated for the first six days of war.”

Bhuj
“. . . the PAF bombed it fairly accurately . . . The Air Force Commanding Officer found it difficult to get together enough labour to repair it.”
All the preceding passages are from a narrative of events by Air Chief Marshal P C Lal, who commanded the IAF during the 1971 war, from his book “My Days with the IAF”. It bears stressing that all the above quoted bomb damage reports except the last one (Bhuj) have been positively identified from the book as relating to the first day of the PAF’s counter air campaign ie 3 December. It would be reasonable to assume that similar levels of damage continued to occur during the next thirteen days as well.

One other IAF source deserves mention here by way of a tribute to the PAF’s B-57 crews who valiantly faced the highest loss rate of the war, and persisted doggedly each night, despite their rudimentary bombs and aiming devices, in carrying the war deep into the enemy’s heartland. The narration comes from an Indian Mig-21 pilot taken prisoner after being shot down over Pakistan. Flight Lieutenant Harish Sinhji, who belonged to a Sirsa-based squadron, stated:

“After one of PAF’s night bombing strikes on our airfield, we were all grounded for six hours. The runway had been cratered in many places. The following morning our CO, Wing Commander V B Sawardekar, took us all to the runway to show us the Pakistani pilot’s bombing accuracy. Pointing to the craters on our runway he said ‘this is the kind of bombing accuracy the IAF pilots should achieve against Pakistani targets.’’

No mention about ANY aircraft being destroyed on the ground by the PAF. Even Harsignji mentions only runway.

 

[Windjammer]

How very arrogantly you have decided to ignore the two other topics,
What nothing to rant, no gloating. You can't convinently pick and choose. If you had a little knowledge on air war fare or you weren't as digressing, there is plenty in the material I have posted.
It so seems, you are just stuck in the dilemma of half empty or half full,
alas not what's there but what's missing. Hence you will always be going in circles.

 

[FreekiN]

You could have just said,

'It depends on the way you look at it India got the objectives done, and Pakistan did the most damage.'

End of story. lol.

 

[chindit]

How very arrogantly you have decided to ignore the two other topics,
What nothing to rant, no gloating. You can't convinently pick and choose. If you had a little knowledge on air war fare or you weren't as digressing, there is plenty in the material I have posted.
It so seems, you are just stuck in the dilemma of half empty or half full,
alas not what's there but what's missing. Hence you will always be going in circles.

What plenty of information? I asked you a specific thing about your two assertions and you failed on both counts.

I guess if you want to put on horse blinders and keep believing that the Initial Bombings "destroyed several indian aircraft" and that "come to attention that three migs were shot down in air combat" when there is absolutely NOTHING to support your wild assertions (PC Lal said so - he didnt, Harisingji said so - he didnt either) then I cant help anything man.

You are right, with the little knowledge i have, i can see a wild claim from far away. and so can others. you can make unsupported fancy claims all you want. But I will call you out on it everytime i see it

 

[DavyJones]

@Windjammer - most Indian planes shot down were Su-7s in ground support role .

 

[Windjammer]

You could have just said,

'It depends on the way you look at it India got the objectives done, and Pakistan did the most damage.'

End of story. lol.

Yaar, There is no medal table, nor am i trying to malign the 40 year old history. However every now and then you do encounter a nit pick, I am just a little occupied with the events back home. Regards.

 

[Windjammer]

@Windjammer - most Indian planes shot down were Su-7s in ground support role .

DJ, the SU-7 quantity was only exceeded by the Hunters. which were deployed in a similar kind of role.